I have created this topic to discuss the real-world usefulness of Game Maker. Unfortunately, the direct usefulness of Game Maker seems to have been cut short. I think, mainly because games designed on Game Maker can only be built (or "compiled") by Game Maker. All though Game Maker has great GUI, and it removes a lot of basis work, I don't feel like it's really extendable. I think that the only possible real-world usefulness it may be is as a spring board into game development. But... I'm not sure about this.

Your resume may say that you have experience in Game Maker, but does anybody care? I don't think that being able to thoroughly use Game Maker means that you're set and ready to make a game (perhaps with C++), but I guess it can be a cherry ontop of your "real" programming knowledge; if of course you already know something like C++.

But besides that, has anybody here learned GML before they did learn (and be able to make games with) something else which is more advanced; then thank GML as a learning ground? Or, does GML's abstraction make it confusing when learning a programming language?

Last of all, would it be appropriate to identify Game Maker as a hobbiest tool, with low-potential to develop into a tool used by professional game developers? Will Game Maker ever become more than what it is now?

GML programming absolutely helped me with my foray into the "real world" of programming.

Above all else, it helps to teach you logic.

GML was the first language I learned. I have since learned things like C++, php, visual basic, etc. I think GML is an awesome language for getting started in because it easily teaches you the concept of programming because it is very forgiving. It also teaches you a lot things related to game making, such as the main game loop, coordinates, depth, etc. I haven't ever tried making a game with c++ since GM is good enough for the types of games I like to make. If you ever wanted to get into 3D game development, I don't think GM would be the right tool



I think that Game Maker is a hobbiest tool. I haven't seen too many games that are being commercially sold. I HIGHLY doubt that GM will ever become a professional tool, or ever become much more than it is now. Mainly because Mark Overmars is constantly saying how he wants to keep game maker simple and easy to use for beginners.

Probably not. But that doesn't diminish its value.

I've never listed my high school debating team on my resume. But that experience taught me more than many of my college courses.

I`d say springboard is appropriate.
I think there are quite a few people who started in GML & then moved on (to C++ etc)

GMs strength lies in it`s simplicity, ease of use & speed you can see results in.

It`s greatest problem is that it`s code is *not* crossplatform friendly (so if you create the greatest game of all time on PC with GM - you`ll have to pay someone else (who`s familiar with C++ etc.) to code ports of iPhone or DS or PSP or whatever *from the ground up* (with all new code).

GM is definitely a fantastic learning tool tho...

I`d go so far as to say GM is the best program out there for *nonprogrammers* to create games with...
& perfect for prototyping game ideas & roughing out level designs for programmers too

As for the "resume" thing: KC hit the nail on the head.
Also, I would say it depends on what job you are applying for with your resume...
if you are applying for a coder/programmer position I would say that GM/GML isn`t going to get you very far (solid Maths skills & C variants will usually win here)...
if you are applying for a game design/level design/QA position I would say that having a complete, playable, polished game to your name (created in GM) would do you alot of good.

About GM becoming more than a hobby tool...
I had high hopes at first that this would eventually be the case & that GM would become BIG...
but when Mark`s ability to continue development came into question I started to wonder...
& I don`t think that YoYo have taken GM very far at all in the time they`ve been in control of it (although I appreciate the InstantPlay thing & the Comps were great & I appreciate the fact that GM is still being developed at all).
It will probably remain as a "hobby" tool...
but I would say it`s still *possible* if a few GM created games hit the big time & become really well known & YoYo had more $$$ to throw into development/advertising, that GM could eventually grow into something more than it is.
(There`s a very real danger tho that the slooow dev pace of GM will be it`s downfall, I can see new game creation packages by younger people popping up & people moving over to them instead - hasn`t happened yet tho, GM is still the only perfect balance between simplicity & power out there for now).

For me Basic was the first, Ruby script was the second. GML was after all that, so it wasn't must of a spring board for me. More of a emotional attachment after all these years *sniff* *sniff*.

Really, companies don't care about if you say you know stuff. What they want is experience. If you've got an epic game made in GM that's popular, they like that, even if you can't code for sh*t.

Is it a spring board? Hell yeah. We're freaking using at my high school to get people started for Java, then C++. Epic right there.

It's entirely possible to make commercial games with game maker and to make a living selling them. It depends on you.

Of course, rather than use GM as a 'springboard' into other game development, many people I know of who have used GM in a commercial context knew other programming languages first and then used GM for what it's good for - making games quickly.

Very true.

I think part of the problem is that typical GMC users don`t realise that there have been (& are still being) commercial games made with GM - usually because the creators that do go commercial tend not to post about their game on these boards & usually distance themselves from GM (ie: not mention GM in their game).
It`s a pity that more commercial GM users didn`t help promote awareness of GM through their games (ie: a splash at startup saying "created with GM" or somesuch) - tho I realise they have no obligation to do so.

Oh well.

Other than that, I have a feeling that we will eventually see some massive major success stories with GM games...
just be patient people! (Or better yet, get cracking on making one yourself!)

hpapillon is totally right; Game Maker can be used quite successfully as a program to commercially develop games.


Yes. After I became used to programming through Game Maker, I've learned the basics of C#, got a good hang of AS3, and tried other languages like VB.NET (.. disliked it).

I've always come back to Game Maker though, as I can make a complete game in under a week or two, which is really all the time I want to spend on a single game.



I think it is appropriate to define it as a hobbyist tool, as the vast majority of GM users use it exactly for that reason. However, I think it has a higher then low potential to be used for professional game developers. There are people who sell commercial games made in Game Maker, along with a few that use it as a tool to develop quick prototypes of games they will later create for things such as the DS (I believe one of the Hulk games on the DS was made this way?)

Correct

GML is so far the first and only programming language I've learned.
I found GM advertised off a Freewebs website, and I thought it was just something to experiment with when I first looked at it, but then I ended up learning the language.

I tried looking up C++ tutorials since fellow programmers at my school called me a 'noob', but no matter what I do(or what tutorial I look at), I can't even really understand a simple "Hello World" in C++. GML has basically rubbed off on me, and since it looks almost nothing like C++, it's hard to learn anything else, but I'm sure most people here has had trouble learning other languages if GML was their first.

The first character in 'hello world' code: #
Quote from a tutorial:

^I don't even know what that meant...

@daman: This is offtopic, but to begin with, don't use 'online' tutorials. [or e-books]
Get c++ for dummies. It comes with a compiler, and instructions on how to start off.


You don't really 'need' to know what it means, to begin with, it ~roughly~ just tells the c++ compiler where to find the definition of certain objects. (I think...)

Do you honestly think anyone would go near a self-taught programmer when they can get College and University grads with proper educations?

Once again another topic, about people who think they can get hired, but haven't even considered the importance of a proper education.

Depends on what position you`re looking for, what country you`re in, how big the company you`re applying to is & how you go about applying.
Admittedly, "Programmer" positions would typically expect some nice qualifications (especially Maths)
but even there, if you can *show* some complete amazing games/software you`ve written (in C++ or whatever, even tho you`re "just self taught") & you talk to the right people - chances are good you`ll get the job.

Demonstratable ability/impressive portfolio can have alot more impact on a potential employee than qualifications.

This is *alot* more true with other positions such as game design, level design, QA, & especially all art positions (portfoilio=king, qualifications don`t mean much at all) but it`s still possible to get a Programmer position even tho you`re "just self taught" (I`ve seen it done).

Something to consider is that (typically) the vast majority of stuff you learn in your "proper education" is useless/out of date/won`t apply for the position you`re going for. Being involved in actual game projects, working with teammates, having *experience* - these are all really important things that a potential employer will look for.

The "importance of a proper education" is (more or less) irrelevent when it comes to design, art, music & QA positions in the games industry.
Your portfolio is key.
Programming positions do lean alot more on qualifications - but it`s wrong to assume that a "self taught" programmer will never get a job.
It`s also *very* wrong to assume that someone with a qualification is automatically "better" than someone who doesn`t.

Having said all that, if your only programming experience/language is GM/GML - you`re not going to get anywhere (you`ll usually need to be familiar with some kind of C variant)...
assuming you want to get into the "real" games industry (which isn`t actually all that it`s cracked up up to be.)

If you want to create your own games & set up your own company tho, be independent... then GM will work just fine

Being concealed to what it is isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, back when I took up game maker (I can't necessarily say now since a lot has changed), I seen everything I needed to get started in Game Maker. I seen a download link to Game Maker, I found the Game Maker manual, and I found the forum. Easy.

Where as, my progress with C++ is a bit slower. First I needed a compiler, I found Dev-C++ and I was told to get up-to-date, then I was told to get Code::Blocks then I was told to get VC++, and I haven't even found a suitable forum beyond YAPC (which is small right now due to being so new). As for tutorials, I have to Google all my problems and it takes a while to figure out how to fix it.

In comparison, GM is very easy and anyone can pick it up, and it does help you a lot in beginning programming. It is forgiving, but then again it's not too difficult to switch from using = to == in C++, or having to put a semicolon after every line, those are easy adjustments, the hard part is learning the foundation of programming, which GM gives you, and the GMC can help you progress in. There's no need to complicate things with extending Game Maker, even though it is extended with DLLs and Extensions, we don't need a separate UI, or alternative ways to 'compile' our source, it all works the same way, and that's what makes it so easy for anyone to just pick up. We're not opinionated over "this UI is better than this one."

I have gone through 1000s of resumes for various technical positions, and I can assure you this is not how it's done.

It's not uncommon to receive 100s of resumes for a single position. It takes me about 30 seconds to dismiss a resume. Do the math, you simply can't afford to spend 10 minutes per resume and you certainly can't afford to spend half an hour playing candidates games. 500 resumes * 10 minutes per resume = 5000 minutes =83 hours or two weeks. It's simply not done.

I doubt you've ever been involved in position hiring. You really shouldn't be advising people on kick-starting their careers.

That, I give a big Amen. 'Technically' what dadio said is correct. I have heard of such a situation, where a young guy with only high-school education, got a job in a game developing company, and worked darn hard. He moved his way up, and was seen with 'high' regard by his colleagues&boss, while doing the job he loved.

Dreams come true, right?

Of course, there is the end of the story, where the company collapsed, and pretty much everyone else walked into jobs, because of their degrees/qualifications, etc... everyone except him, which, because of his 'lack' of qualifications, just couldn't find any work, and ended up shooting himself.

Get a proper education, right?

He probably hasn't but that doesn't make you completely right. It's not uncommon in Arts and Design (as dadio said), for a portfolio to be more important than qualifications. I know we are *meant* to be talking about programming and technical employment (in which case NPT is right) but I just thought I'd bring that up. To be honest, I'm constantly surprised at how many people on the GMC aren't game making hobbyists (or atleast, don't see themselves as such).

Yeah, I try and avoid mentioning Game Maker when talking about programming experience, it seem's to have a bad rep with real programmers.

I think it's mostly because they're jealous that we can achieve more than them in less time .

No, I`ve never worked in "position hiring" - but I have (once upon a time & hopefully never again) worked for a BIG name games company.

For Art, Design, Music the strength of you portfolio is *King* - 100%
Even if the Art, Design, Music is very technical - if you can show in your portfolio some amazing examples/demonstrations of the kind of technical Art, Design, Music where you`ve made it obvious that you`re familair with the software required - your portfolio is King.
For QA & Testing - alot of the jobs will be localisation related & given to people who can speak a particular language, other than that, experience will be more important than qualifications. (Unless the testing is very technical).

For Programming positions, like I said, qualifications are alot more important.

***Alot*** depends on the country you`re in.

ie:
You`re in Ireland/UK, qualifications won`t have so much weight, portfolio/personality will determine your chances.
You`re in Japan, qualifications are King across the board (even in Art/Music) you won`t even be given a chance without them.

My main point however was to shatter the delusion that some people seem to have that if you`ve went through the System you`re "better" than someone who is self taught.

To quote myself:



We`ve covered position & country...
The bigger the company:
the more layers there are to get through & more competition & the more important qualifications become.
If the company is small, you`ll have a *much* better chance at being given an opportunity to prove yourself.

How you go about applying:
One Golden rule here: Apply direct if possible. Don`t, don`t, don`t use a recruitment agency unless you absolutely have no other option (if your qualifications are weak, you`ll be out of the race at the first hurdle).
Network, get to know people: in the real world the old saying "It`s not what you know, it`s who you know" is so true it`s sometimes terrifying - friends of friends can open all kinds of doors.

Getting a "proper education" is a good thing.
It`s a good thing to mature/mix/experience more for one thing & (especially for Programming positions) those qualifcations *do* matter.
I`d never advise anyone to not get a "proper education".
Those pieces of paper (qualifications) can be a life safer if your company collapses (especially if you want to/have to look for work outside of games).
Desert Dogs post there was very appropriate to bring up - read that well!

That`s all I have to say really.
Basically:
1. Get a "proper education" - it`s actually really important.
2. Don`t assume that just because someone doesn`t have a "proper education" & is "self taught" that you are "better" than them.
I`ve seen *mind blowing* stuff from "self taught" people in the games industry & them going on to great things & I`ve seen green grads with piles of qualifications not get past 6 months because of their lack of knowledge/people skills.

Also... I`ve touched on this before but I wanna add another point:
The Games Industry *really* isn`t all that it`s cracked up to be - *especially* the BIG name companies.
They`ll pretty much work you to the bone for a few years (hideous overtime/sleeping under the desk/crunch times) & usually what you actually end up working on will be very far from what you`d like to be working on (think lame movie liscenced games). The cash will be enough to keep you there, but after the glow of the first few months wears off, those hours will take their toll & you`ll be dying to escape.
I know about 20 guys who went into the Industry a few years back...
& of them I think just 4 are still in it (& only for the money or out of fear they might not get another job - not because they like it).
Most jumped ship because they were just burned out, or because they never got work on anything remotely interesting, or because they never had any influence over anything.

Yep.

On the other hand,
Freelancing/Indiegames/Small Companies are a whole other kettle of fish that I highly recommend

I tried C++ before I started with Game Maker, even hello world programs was too complicated for me.
But after some years with Game Maker I am now working on good games in C++.
So Game Make definitely helped me with understanding C++.

Game Maker has helped me learn several things like PHP and all those other website languages. Haha, I have started learning C++, but it's still proving to be a challenge. I know a handfull amounts of GML too, but it dosen't seem like enough to learn C++ much. I'm sticking to GM for now, while I'm learning. I do understand some stuff, but not everything is the same...