Is this a mac flaming topic now?
Because there already is one here.

Frankly, the word 'Mac' is used on this forum, a flame war will start. ^^
Keeping back onto the topic, do you think Game Maker Mac will utilize the MacBook / MacBook Pro's multi-touch Trackpad, I could think of some good uses for this in some games / applications.

Generally people who own a Mac want to do that as little as possible


I haven't piloted airplanes that much, but every one I did used two remote control sticks and a single throttle button.

Mmmm... nope!

I think you're misunderstanding the difference between form and function. Don't the Asus netbooks only have one 'rocker' mouse button? Yes, there is one 'physical' button, but you are able to click on the right side of the button, and all right button functionality is there. So do they only have one mouse button? Likewise, on my Pro I can keep two fingers on the trackpad and click, and a 'right' click is executed.


I'm pretty sure the two finger scroll is application independent, but the new zoom functions only work in Safari etc. I can't test this though, as I don't have a new Mac. This is more of an API issue though. If it's in the API, I guess GM could use it. However, how would people who don't have Mac's play your game? I guess this is a developer decision.

No plane that I've flown has had a throttle "button", it was a lever. Forwards goes faster, back goes slower, how do you get that with a single button?
Also, if you fly a plane with more than one engine, you will have more than one throttle control.

My school bought a Mac server. It came with a 1 button mouse (excluding the middle mouse button, I'm not even sure if that was clickable though and in any case, it doesn't have the same action as right-click).

Your statistics are wrong.

All of your statistics are wrong. In the past, Apple has always shipped a single button mouse (where the entire mouse was the button (well, since ~2000)), but, their latest mouse iteration, the Mighty Mouse, actually does have only one button, but it also has sensors to detect other 'clicks'.



Plus, as someone else said:



That isn't true. If it is USB, then it does. But, PS2 interface mice (as well as keyboards) do not work without a converter of some sort on a Mac. So, your fact is flawed.

Please, if you do not know what you are talking about, do not talk at all.

Edit: Fixed apostrophe encoding error in the quoted text.

Now you are just being stupid.

It should be obvious that this the one button / button mouse vs two button mouse discussion is regarding functionality. The mighty mouse, the mouse that ships with iMacs and Mac Pro's is functionally a two button mouse. If you click on the left side it behaves exactly as if you clicked the left button, if you click on the right side it behaves as if you clicked on the right button.

Your point about PS2 style mice not working is equally stupid. You know PS2 mice are obsolete, modern systems aren't manufactured with PS2 mice any more. I really expected better from you Watzon.



Goto apple.com and find one mouse, any mouse, that isn't a two button mouse (functionally).

Actually, I purchased two new PC's in the past year. One shipped with a USB mouse and PS2 keyboard, whilst the other one (well, it is a Compaq, but regardless, it is a modern system) shipped with both a PS2 mouse and keyboard. You cannot generally assume that all systems, no matter how modern, ship with what should be the defacto standard for peripherals.

In regards to the whole "one button-dual functionality" statement. Yea, the mouse is one button. It also supports right clicking. It also supports two other buttons (lower left and right, below were an actual 'button' would be located). My statement was in direct response to the previous statement made by Hache-Que in which he said:



So, while the mouse is only one button (and the scroll 'wheel', if you will), it does in fact replicate the functionality of a multiple button mouse.

But, alas, I should have assumed the discussion was not simply about Apple hardware, yet something that actually related to game development on the Mac.

Next reply, can someone please save us from this quote monster?

Nope, I used it myself and right-mouse button did not work. I had to hold the control (or function?) key to obtain right-mouse click functionality. It was the same as on the Mac books my school purchased. Only one button, and you have to use the control (function?) key to right-click.



The mouse issue is on-topic since some games use right-mouse click.

Often the right click functionality is disabled by default. You may have to enable it in the System Preferences.

NPT. You have been proven wrong repeatedly.

Doesn't matter if every new mac now has 2 button mice, but many still do not. It limits functionality. Doesn't matter if you can go and get different mice, alot of the people visiting this site as visitors are likely children on their parents computer. I know people who frequent this forum and don't own a computer, what about people playing a game at the office or at school.

The points raised are valid, and for you to make up statistics to disprove them is completely foolish.

Also i downgraded from my usb mouse/keyboard to ps2. They are not obsolete and are still used very widely.

Any Mac user in this forum who speaks up has bought their most recent Mac within the time frame of multiple buttons.


Prove it.


What about them? I don't think all office users use macs, all children know less about computers than their parents, or schools refuse to let their Macs right click.


Can you provide statistics to disprove them?


I haven't seen a PS/2 port in years, like 7 of them. Why the hell would you downgrade to PS/2? Are you the person who thought Macs forced you to eject your flash drive and PCs didn't?

So I'm wrong because I've been talking about current Hardware and you're talking about old hardware.

Everyone of my statements is correct. If you think it's false then find me the link on the apple.com site where they are selling a one-button mouse (fuctionality).

Go ahead.

You obviously don't even know what obsolete even means.

It doesn't mean it isn't used anymore, it also doesn't mean that it's not even being made anymore. It means that a newer technology has superseeded it. VHS is obsolete, but they still make VHS tapes, produce VHS movies and manufacture players.

PS2 stylel mice are obsolete.

I shouldn't even have had to discuss it. Anyone but an absolute idiot, would have had the common sense to realise that when we are talking about mice and Macs, the context of the conversation implies that the thing could be physically plugged into.

Now stop being an idiot, all your doing is cluttering the discussion with your nonsense.

If some had said you contact emergency by "Dialing 911", would you have said they were wrong because phones don't have dials on them anymore?

If they responded that phone dials are obsolete, would you have said they are wrong because some phones still have dials and are being used?

My point is not to quote statistics,...my point is what the hell can be done about the fact that there are still people out there using single buttoned mice. If every time i raise this simple point somebody has to call me an idiot because they can think of ways they got around it then fine.

I know what obsolete means, you are right in its meaning, but its not regimented to simply an out of date model. "no longer in use or no longer useful"
They are still in use and are still useful.

Dial phones can still be used in the current network of phone lines,...the problem of obsolete was addressed similar as i am trying to do with this problem of the 'mice' and the system was kept to a state where they can still function.

On a side note: http://www.engadget.com/2008/12/23/vhs-dis...inds-to-a-halt/


Current meaning its in use? Then we are both talking about current.


Don't add another piece of hardware to this discussion, please


My game needs rapid right clicking...

You make too broad assumptions, not all children know more then their parents, not all schools or offices have mice that right click and I know people personally who use single buttoned mice every day in these environments.

And in response to the flawed statistics,...people have raised doubts already,...read up.



Look if you guys want to go and flame me for brining up a point which should be addressed then go for it. I don't see much point in reading more examples that don't relate to the problem at hand.

Maybe there will be a time when the genius idea of a single buttoned mouse does not hold sway. But right now there are still alot of single button mice. I want to know if there is a solution besides purchasing new hardware, and if there is, what is that solution.

It would be really nice if i didn't have to read a whole bunch of posts taking my point and making it something else.

The last time a single button mouse (which DID have the functionality of a double click by simply holding down the button for an extended period (~2 seconds)) was sold and distributed with a Mac was August 2005. Just so you know, that was a full four months before Apple even shipped it's first Game Maker for Mac compatible system, with an Intel processor. Oh, and that system was a laptop. So, unless someone has a single button mouse from 2005 hooked up to an Intel Mac, then this point is mute.

Oh, and anyone who is testing the current build of Game Maker for Mac knows that it doesn't work, and if it does it ends up crashing, on PowerPC processors.

Clarity.

I'm sorry, which side of this discussion are you on?

If two button mice are more productive than one button mice, then logically, five button mice would be more productive than both of them. Why aren't we all using five button mice then?

And with all this talk about some people having one button mice, is there anyone here who still uses a one button mouse? Even if there are, I'm sure they are as proficient as someone with a two button mouse. Thus, ctrl-click will be as natural as right clicking for these users, and as GM doesn't read right from the hardware, the difference to designers is meaningless.

It's like saying someone using a Dvorak keyboard is at a disadvantage (technically I guess they are if your game has WASD movement, but you get my point).

Because that statement isn't true.

The optimum number of buttons isn't a linear progressive issue.

I use a Mac every day, for eight hours a day, Monday through Friday, at work. My computer at work (along with every new Mac I've seen over the last few years) comes with the Mighty Mouse - which looks like the old one-button mice they used to ship, but which actually has left and right button functionality, plus middle button if you click the small track ball in the middle. It also has two buttons on the sides that let you squeeze the mouse for an additional fourth button.

If you're using a Mac with only one button, and you're using a more modern version of Mac OS, you still have the option of going out and buying a new mouse (of whatever make you want), or simply holding down control when you click. Sure, these solutions may be less than ideal, but they help.

Look, I'm not the biggest fan of Mac. But it's painfully obvious that you're wrong about this issue, so why keep bothering people with it? Any Mac computer that's still using the old round mouse (like a 90's iMac) or the square single-buttoned mouse (from the original black and white Macintosh) isn't capable of running Game Maker or its games anyway.


Of course people still use older tech - I use a USB mouse and a PS2 keyboard on my PC at home. But there's no denying that PS2 is quite antiquated at this point, so I see no use in arguing about this.


Oh, man - I am sorry for you / your school. Out of every server I've ever had to work with, Mac servers are the most unreliable, by far.

xserve yeah?
Never used on, but they're rather old now, arn't they?

my program in school (web design) only uses macs, so we need a mac server. it's new and has only recently been set up. it works just like a pc server would, connecting etc., and it works great.
if it hasn't been mentioned yet, if you have a mighty mouse, go to system preferences and enable right click. a one button mouse is now a two button mouse! amazing.

I'm sure it works great out of the box - but at every job I've worked at that has used a Mac server, we've seen constant slowness, lag, and in one case, a crash almost every other day. Granted, we've probably been putting a lot more stress on it than you would, especially if yours is new and there aren't many people using it. But when things go downhill for Mac servers, they go fast and crash hard.

At least you don't have to work in the same room as one! We have one, and it sounds like airport in here. There are even huge air chutes in the front.

Let's assume for a second that Macs do really only have one button, even though you have been repeatedly proven wrong.

Are you targeting your game for any amount of Mac user base?

If no, it doesn't matter that Macs only have one button.
If yes, then it is your fault as a game designer that your game relies so heavily on right clicking.

At the end of the day, he could just remap the key to something else... like the Spacebar.

Possibly, but that wouldn't work too well if it was a secondary fire for an FPS. But on the other hand, Macs these days are all capable of right clicking, so it doesn't really matter.

I presume you meant Xserver as that first word, which is actually the graphical display system used on Linux.



I've told them a million times they'd be better off with openSUSE Enterprise edition. They'd save money and tech support costs, but since the technician is too lazy to learn Linux, he overrides any suggestions I make (even though openSUSE has the easiest system administration tool ever designed).

A little while a go at work, one of the mangers of a small department took advice similar to what you're giving.

When it was time to upgrade his staff's workstations, he decided to save a few bucks by ordering machines without Windows, installing Linux and OpenOffice.

None of the machines connected into Active Directory properly, couldn't print to half the network printers. His staff was consistently sending out unreadable attachments, or couldn't open other attachments. Nor, could they run required server side programs on the corporate portal.

In no time at all his department was monopolising the IT service desk. The IT department eventually refused to service his department.

Finally, he had to overcome pressure and buy licences for Windows and Office. Because they weren't OEM on the machines, he had to pay full retail cost for Windows and couldn't take advantage of our Corporate licencing for Office.

It was the last decision he made before being fired.

People who have never supported workstations and servers in a corporate environment, really shouldn't be advising others about what servers they should be running. They especially shouldn't be commenting on the costs of keeping mission critical servers running.

Nope. I'd be wary of anyone who recommends one system without even knowing the name of the other.

I think this topic is short on facts.
The X Window System is the GUI system used by Linux. Xserve is Apple's server thingy. PS/2 is still used by some cheap gizmos because it supplies power without any sort of negotiation (like USB devices are supposed to do). Mac has a tiny market share. Linux has a tinier market share. WINE runs GM stuff well on Linux. In other news, Qt has finally been GPL'ed and is expected to steamroll its competition shortly. The OSS world rejoices.

Using a single button mouse? What are they browsing the internet on? an Atari ST?!

PS/2 is outdated now, never USB mice are far superior, I agree with NPT.

I'm not saying much because this is an argument which should not exist, USB mice are better in every way and also the same price.

You idiot, you either hold down "control" while clicking or if you have a compatible mouse you put two fingers on the pad and click. Use your head.

What good is a USB mouse if you cannot plug it in?

(For people using old machines, PS2 mice are better because that's the only mouse you can use. So USB devices are not better in every way.)

Using that logic then, what good is a PS2 mouse if you can't plug it in?

What? I was responding to the person above me saying that USB mice are better in every way, but clearly for some people they aren't if you can't actually use them.

Developing Game Maker for the mac would really aid personally in my pc to mac switch.

Since the OS apple develops is infinetely better, Game Maker should be able to take full advantage of the technoliges that MAC OS X offers. Also if Windows happens to loose its monopolistic hold on the market (which appears to be happening due to the economic issues, and people running away from Windows Vista) game maker will further advance in its development and will much improve over its windows counterparts.

Funny when I just read your blog post.

Sorry, what about the blog post stated that the platforms were less than "almost identical"?

USB is outdated now, never Bluetooth mice are far superior, I agree with NPT.

I'm not saying much because this is an argument which should not exist, Bluetooth mice are better in every way and also the same price.

I hate bluetooth mice. I don't think USB is outdated, but for mice it is probably obsolete. But I still hate them. For the same reason I think TV remote controls should be wired rather than remote. I can't find my damn mouse, or the remote control. I like how my touch pad is glued to my laptop, so I can never lose it.

Largely pointless reply, I guess, but the Atari ST had a two button mouse before the PS/2 mouse even existed. And since you asked, yes, I was using it on the internet before the invention of the WWW browser, too. Don't mess with my Atari, boy.

Who cares how many buttons your mouse has it is not a is not a symbol of status. People who want a two button mouse can get one for cheap that works on both Mac and PC. I can guarantee to you that there are PC users somewhere in the world who also only have one button mice, but those people are that way because they are okay with it. Lets not discriminate against one one button mouse users, they are just as capable as the next guy. But this is all besides the point. YoYo is making game maker for the Mac and it is about time. I own a Mac and love it. Making this port will open up a new and unsaturated market which is growing in size each year, anyone who says otherwise is either blind or uninformed. I have hoped for a long time that Game Maker would work on the Mac (and not that silly card based Gamemaker that Google pulls up if you search for "game maker mac"). I do not like having to run to my PC any time I want to use game maker. And the fact that the Mac version will be able to port a windows game will mean I will develop almost entirely on the Mac. I just wish it was already released. Does anybody have any idea of a time to hope for release?

This statement is silly.

It's not a matter of discrimination. It's a matter of good game design. Designing a game that is dependant on a right mouse button, when a large portion of the target audience doesn't have a right mouse button is poor game design.



It's not a matter of the person being capable, it's a matter or the equipment being capable. And, yes I'm aware that there are keyboard equivalents to right button mouse functionality, but that can dramatically change the game playability.

Having said that, most of the people making claims about lack of right button mice have probably never used a modern Intel based Mac. The standard Mac mighty mouse, has had right button functionality for years.

Exactly. If you've ever used a Mighty Mouse on a PC, you'd have the right-click capabilities that you'd have with a normal USB or PS/2 mouse. Many people may not know this, since when using a Mac, you must use CMD+CLICK instead of the right-click function.

No. You can right click with the Mighty Mouse on a Mac as well.

USB mice don't require batteries. So no, bluetooth mice aren't better in every way.

Also, USB mice have a handy cord to connect to your computer so you don't lose it. Bluetooth mice don't.

I've never lost a cordless mouse.

I have. That's why you have a bluetooth mouse, and I don't. In fact, just to be safe I bought a computer with the mouse securely stuck to it.