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GMC "Fresh Start"? - Your feedback wanted


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#101 NotWhoYouThink

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:19 AM

Poll request?

Also, I vote 1.


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This forum is archived. The above may not reflect my current opinion, or may be irrelevant now.


#102 Alice

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:25 AM

Do we even consider option 2?

Because it seems to be the least popular of all, and if it wasn't included in the poll we'd be left with 2 options, averting any need for voting system debate. :whistling:
Just testing stuff.

Edited by Alice, 06 January 2016 - 10:28 AM.

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#103 ShaunS

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:27 AM

This, as said earlier in the post, the UX issue that presents itself is important. Unless new user experience is more important than loyal customer experience :whistle:

 

Actually, both are pretty important. Right now the new user experience is very bad and needs to be improved. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't take care over our approach or that we dismiss content the community has come to care about as unimportant, but ultimately we do have to find ways to make progress. That's what this is all about.

 

And that's not to say there are no ways to improve things without starting everything from scratch either, but there certainly a number of potential advantages to doing so.


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#104 Ehsan

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:28 AM

Replacing the forum would that change the web adress? Because I have a ton of content bookmarked!
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#105 ShaunS

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:31 AM

Poll request?

Also, I vote 1.

 

 

Do we even consider option 2?

Because it seems to be the least popular of all, and if it wasn't included in the poll we'd be left with 2 options, averting any need for voting system debate. :whistling:

 

Please try not to consider this as a poll from which you vote for an option. Such a poll will not be created. I want to see discussion of the ideas presented, their advantages and disadvantages as perceived by you guys. Which I've seen a lot of so far, so thank you!


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#106 HayManMarc

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:33 AM

#3.  Archive this forum in it's entirety and start completely anew.
 
This makes the most sense to me.  Nothing is lost with archiving.  There is so much info and help to be found here, even ages old.  It would be detrimental to lose it all forever.  Even in duplicate topics, you'll find varied answers and methods for doing things.  For example, after searching for help (thru google, the gmc search is crap), I've read through threads that offer solutions that I just could not wrap my poor brain around, but in a nearly duplicate topic the solution was clear as day.  I'm sure this would be different for everyone since individuals comprehend things in different ways.
 
Usernames should be protected, ideally.
 
I liked the no-nonsense atmosphere of the GMC before Off-Topic was allowed.  Seemed much more productive and easier to moderate.  I don't see any disadvantage to the GMC if it is removed.
 
Rep and postcount is irrelevant, for the most part.
 
It's not that hard to link to a post or thread in an archive when making new threads for existing game betas and such.  
 
The added security and refinement to the forums would be the most beneficial to all users.  I think this, along with maintaining user identity, should take the top priority in this decision.

Edited by HayManMarc, 06 January 2016 - 11:00 AM.

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#107 Mr. RPG

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:34 AM

Also be aware, that no matter what we do, the forums will be down for some time - brace yourselves. And this will be happening sooner rather than later.


I'm assuming you'll announce a date at some point for when the forum upgrade process will begin?
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#108 Lukasmah

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:36 AM

Among current and former moderators, a number of them have tweeted about Off-Topic being spammy or deserving closure (example 1/example 2).


The first one is taken out of context and no longer relevant. It was made almostright after Off-Topic was introduced, before it was properly moderated and when the userbase of it was very different. I don't see how a comment about the state of off topic at its introduction is in any way relevant.



Now, I'm not completely sure what the second one was... Spambots, maybe? He definitely said something about nuking off topic once because of all the unreported spambots, but that was a year later, so... I don't know.
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#109 ShaunS

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:37 AM

 

Also be aware, that no matter what we do, the forums will be down for some time - brace yourselves. And this will be happening sooner rather than later.


I'm assuming you'll announce a date at some point for when the forum upgrade process will begin?

 

Yes.


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#110 GameDevDan

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:45 AM

Could you link me to some of these topics that you feel would be badly affected? I can see the concept you're describing in principle but it's hard to weigh the issue without context.


Sure:

 

Games

Iji, started September 2008, 2326 replies, last post was December 2015

An Untitled Story, started August 2007, 705 replies, last post was December 2015

There Was A Caveman, started October 2014, 393 replies, last post was November 2015

 

Tutorials

 

Zero Engine 3.1, started November 2009, 459 replies, last post was December 2015

Turn-based strategy RPG overworld engine, started February 2010, 170 replies, last post was December 2015

 

Found those just by browsing around the two forums, I'm sure there are more. There is at least some proof that very old topics (the oldest there being 8 1/2 years old) are still replied to even now.

 

In terms of tutorial searching are you talking about users using the forum search functionality to look for old content? Wouldn't old users know that content no longer existed in the new space (And would therefore know where to look for it) and new users not have old content to look for in the first place?


I'm talking about GameMaker users searching from Google - who may not even know that the GMC exists until they do so. Historically this has been a fantastic way for new users to get to know GM, and was pointed out to me by a lot of developers & students as an advantage of GM over other products (at GIS, GDC, Game Jams etc.)

If the URL changes at all, many links from Google will be broken. If topics are locked, those users won't know who to ask for help (especially if they've never seen the GMC before and have no idea about the new forum, though this could be rectified with a global message on the archive I guess).


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#111 Alice

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:46 AM

I think that if the option 3 was actually undertaken, there needs to be a big announcement at least a week in advance before the transition happens. That way people who made some relevant content will have time to prepare porting it over. I'm speaking about such content like in opening posts in Alpha/Beta/Completed Games sections (which are very relevant for GMC), that might or might not use some specific formatting that would require reverse-engineering when these posts would become uneditable.

Edited by Alice, 06 January 2016 - 10:47 AM.

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#112 supmaster004

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:47 AM

I myself prefer option 3.

 

Also insert Name here has the following message:

"

I support the complete archive option,if only because it's the only concievable way I'll be able to start lurking and reading off topic again. Plus I still need to transfer some of the old writing."

 

So I guess he wants 3 as well.


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#113 Lukasmah

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:48 AM

Also, GameGeisha, about the off topic, sure, there are people who post outside of it, on in it, but you're acting like there's almost no overlap, which is not true. Also, even those who do mainly post in the off topic often still use other forums, and there are people who mainly use other forums yet still use the off topic. There's a few people who post in the off topic exclusively or almost exclusively, but it's not like that's the majority of off topic users.
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#114 ShaunS

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:52 AM

 

Could you link me to some of these topics that you feel would be badly affected? I can see the concept you're describing in principle but it's hard to weigh the issue without context.


Sure:

 

Games

Iji, started September 2008, 2326 replies, last post was December 2015

An Untitled Story, started August 2007, 705 replies, last post was December 2015

There Was A Caveman, started October 2014, 393 replies, last post was November 2015

 

Tutorials

 

Zero Engine 3.1, started November 2009, 459 replies, last post was December 2015

Turn-based strategy RPG overworld engine, started February 2010, 170 replies, last post was December 2015

 

Found those just by browsing around the two forums, I'm sure there are more. There is at least some proof that very old topics (the oldest there being 8 1/2 years old) are still replied to even now.

 

In terms of tutorial searching are you talking about users using the forum search functionality to look for old content? Wouldn't old users know that content no longer existed in the new space (And would therefore know where to look for it) and new users not have old content to look for in the first place?


I'm talking about GameMaker users searching from Google - who may not even know that the GMC exists until they do so. Historically this has been a fantastic way for new users to get to know GM, and was pointed out to me by a lot of developers & students as an advantage of GM over other products (at GIS, GDC, Game Jams etc.)

If the URL changes at all, many links from Google will be broken. If topics are locked, those users won't know who to ask for help (especially if they've never seen the GMC before and have no idea about the new forum, though this could be rectified with a global message on the archive I guess).

 

 

So I see how those threads are ongoing processes but what about them makes creating new threads a user experience nightmare? I can't imagine a reason someone would need to refer to content in the middle of one of those threads, if it were important enough wouldn't it be merged or edited into the original post? Which is content that could if wanted, be copied with ease? I'm not arguing the problem you describe doesn't exist but I think you're overstating the effects it would have.

 

We're very aware of the issue regarding google, which is the first primary concern I raised when this discussion arose for the exact same reasons you describe. A lot of how I learned GM in the first place was through googling obscure problems bringing me here, and eventually even posting a few of my own. Which is why ideally this content would all be left with URLs intact.


Edited by ShaunS, 06 January 2016 - 10:57 AM.

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#115 GameDevDan

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 11:12 AM

So I see how those threads are ongoing processes but what about them makes creating new threads a user experience nightmare? I can't imagine a reason someone would need to refer to content in the middle of one of those threads, if it were important enough wouldn't it be merged or edited into the original post? Which is content that could if wanted, be copied with ease? I'm not arguing the problem you describe doesn't exist but I think you're overstating the effects it would have.


I think it's easy to see how crossing back and forth between old & new topics could create a UX issue. In a hypothetical situation it could go something like this:

 

  • User Googles for help, finds the old "archived" tutorial thread and needs to ask for further advice on it.
  • They post on the new forum asking for help.
  • Users have to keep cross-referencing the old topic to make sure they're not suggesting things already tried.

That in itself is a UX issue. Sure, it sounds simple enough, if people aren't too lazy they could just cross-reference the old topic. In practice I think people would just be reluctant to go to the effort to help those users. 

 

In terms of the games topics, maybe the OP is still checking for feedback and they want to remember what some user said about their game. Was it in the new topic on the new forum, or the old topic on the archive forum? Suddenly the effort of searching is doubled.

 

I just don't see why this forum needs to be wiped at all. Old, messy, unwanted posts can sink to the bottom of forums to be long forgotten. Forums that we don't use any more can easily be merged, or hidden, or trashed if you want to. If it's possible to clean up the security side and keep the history, as option 1 seems to suggest, then there seems to be no up-side to the current end-users of forcing us all to sign-up fresh and severing our connections to old topics.

 

I understand from YYGs point of view there are bonuses like culling inactive members to get a better idea of the current userbase, and the removal of content deemed incompatible with the current versions of GameMaker or company image, I just don't see what benefit it has to customers or end users beyond the novelty of a squeaky-clean playground.


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#116 icuurd12b42

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 11:14 AM

whatever method you choose, main thing is, old content must survive and so do old links

most the stuff posted here are concepts created for game maker or ported from other sources to the gml language, some of these original sources are getting harder and harder to find. drowned in a sea of java and c++ implementation of same but harder to port concepts due to the gml language not having modern features and not matching any modern standard libraries...

The web is plagued with dead links in regards to c code right now, use that as reference, if all the stuff you find on google leads to dead links it's going to be a problem.

The other thing I worry about is all my more recent topics like all my asset support is done through GMC forums. I would hate to have to copy everything to yet another location. It's a shame the marketplace itself does not have a forum tied to the asset. a lot of duplicate work needs to be done.

Finally my last concern is fearing the direction taken will be more like the Knowledge Base system as opposed to a forum. A system made to limit p2p interaction. Who here uses the MS forum more than 1 every 2 years?

I do agree the forum as it is does not promote professionalism in the way is is structured though, but it does have features that make it friendly to use and promotes a sense of community.
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#117 dadio

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 11:22 AM

My 2 cents:

 

Been around these forums since the very start (& was on the old forum before this...) so I'm very attached to the tone/community spirit/history/casual interactions here on these forums.

Would be very sad to see it all disappear.

 

Could we get more specifics on exactly what an "archive" of the GMC would look like?

Would Google links still work?

Would love to have it all *properly* archived *IF* that archive kept all the usernames & didn't result in a million dead links...

but I think the usernames will be nuked & there will be a million dead links? - is that so? If so, then I don't like that idea.

 

No point in bringing over a few forums (Jam, Tutorials, etc) if the usernames are nuked (because it will just be messy with all posts by "Guests").

There's a lotta history & nostalgia wrapped up in those old Jam topics.

 

Personally see the user database nuke as a big problem here & feel that we'll see a serious drop off in community numbers if that is done.

User nuke + fresh start with a streamlined GMC that might possibly alienate people?... sounds like a nasty combo...

 

So... I'd *like* to say archive & start fresh... but suspecting there will be serious issues with that archive, I'm leaning strongly towards: keep it all as is.

 

(If the archive were a genuine, exactly as it currently is, frozen perfectly in time copy... then archive + fresh restart sounds great.)


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#118 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 11:34 AM

I really can't stand the thought of the current GMC not being preserved in some fashion. I fall in line with what dadio has said.
If the archive breaks, then there is no purpose for archiving. I fall with Option 1.

 

If the archive is a true archived time-slice of the site, frozen in carbonite for all eternity, then yes please.

 

I want the forum preserved for purely selfish reasons, you see. I started my entire Game Development life here. This place means a lot to me, as mushy as that sounds. Made a lot of friends here, and it has actually made me who I am. As ridiculous as that sounds, I am really attached to this place.
Option 2 cannot be considered. It's horrible.


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#119 icuurd12b42

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 11:38 AM

^^ Yep, it's sort of why I suggested to simply lock down the forum if you want to start fresh, and start fresh with another web address/system. Keep everything intact but remove the right to create new topics/accounts. I suggested maybe leaving the ability to post in existing topics but it's not a necessity. So the move to the new forum would be gradual without loss of interaction with content more up to date. possibly with links to the locked forum.


I mentioned the marketplace not providing a forum for you asset and us having to manually create a support group either on our own site of here on the gmc. I rather do it on a site maintained by yoyo. Much less work for me. I think the new forum should be more intertwined with the product and the assets sold on the marketplace

something like sourceforge. it an all in one setup for everything, including the wiki per asset, a forum per asset I can define the structure for my product, a place to upload files too. I dont particularly like the interface but I do give that site 10/10 on the features available...
http://sourceforge.n...-apo-extension/
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#120 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 11:57 AM

 

Games

Iji, started September 2008, 2326 replies, last post was December 2015

An Untitled Story, started August 2007, 705 replies, last post was December 2015

There Was A Caveman, started October 2014, 393 replies, last post was November 2015

 

Tutorials

 

Zero Engine 3.1, started November 2009, 459 replies, last post was December 2015

Turn-based strategy RPG overworld engine, started February 2010, 170 replies, last post was December 2015

 

Found those just by browsing around the two forums, I'm sure there are more. There is at least some proof that very old topics (the oldest there being 8 1/2 years old) are still replied to even now.
 

 

 

Okay, even here - the games don't link properly. There are missing images and the links on some are dead. This shows why it should be restarted. Only the 3rd one is actuallyt (mostly) in tact, and even it has dead links.

 

Those aren't tutorials, they are demos. And I can bet trying to import them into Studio they won't work (haven't tried - but pretty sure). I don't give a crap about "demos" that old. They won't work on current tech, and are so old - and using © imagery, I don't want them around. I don't want to include stuff that won't work; that newcomers will end up being incredibly frustrated trying to use. If they want to remove © stuff, and fix them up to work in the latest versions - great, re-add them to the new forums, but with the new version being closer than ever, hanging onto the past (GM7 for goodness sake!) is pointless and frustrating.

 

Top me, these prove the point that we should nuke and start again. If this is the best "games" and "tutorial" topics around, we're better off without them.

 

 

EDIT:

 

 


Could we get more specifics on exactly what an "archive" of the GMC would look like?
Would Google links still work?
Would love to have it all *properly* archived *IF* that archive kept all the usernames & didn't result in a million dead links...
but I think the usernames will be nuked & there will be a million dead links? - is that so? If so, then I don't like that idea.

In the archive, user names would remain so they "thread" of topics still works.

The gmc.yoyogames.com domain would continue to point to the read-only forum so Google still works - we'd pick a new sub domain fro the new forum.

Everyone would have to re-register on the new forum - no info at all would be brought over (in option 3)


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#121 GameDevDan

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:07 PM

Hanging onto past tutorials and demos is actually very useful, because GML has changed very little. Often you can search for an issue you're having in Studio, find a thread on the forums where someone had the same problem in GM x.y and the fix will be largely the same. If it does need a little tweaking, and the user is unaware of the difference in Studio, they ask in the topic or PM the OP. Two things they won't be able to do if those connections are lost in the archiving process.

 

I'm fully aware that you will have a LOT of sway in the ultimate decision on this Mike, so it doesn't fill me with confidence for this process of "gathering feedback" if you "don't give a crap" about old demos, and think we're "better off without" some of the most popular topics ever to have existed in this community. It sounds like you've made up your mind already!


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#122 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:11 PM

I've taken the liberty to sum up my feelings in an image.

mJrHfFdj.png

Because propaganda is the best.


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#123 Mr. RPG

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:16 PM

Option 3 is the best solution here. It is also a good compromise for those who want to preserve the old forum and those who are in favor of restarting.

Mike, are you still figuring out what forum software to use or are you staying with IP.Board?
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#124 chance

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:17 PM

Everyone would have to re-register on the new forum - no info at all would be brought over (in option 3)


The mad grab for user names would be interesting.  After things settled down, it would be a while before we trusted anyone with a familiar user name.  Sounds fun.  :P


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#125 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:21 PM

Hanging onto past tutorials and demos is actually very useful, because GML has changed very little. Often you can search for an issue you're having in Studio, find a thread on the forums where someone had the same problem in GM x.y and the fix will be largely the same. If it does need a little tweaking, and the user is unaware of the difference in Studio, they ask in the topic or PM the OP. Two things they won't be able to do if those connections are lost in the archiving process.

 

I'm fully aware that you will have a LOT of sway in the ultimate decision on this Mike, so it doesn't fill me with confidence for this process of "gathering feedback" if you "don't give a crap" about old demos, and think we're "better off without" some of the most popular topics ever to have existed in this community. It sounds like you've made up your mind already!

I disagree hugely here. GML has changed a LOT since GM7 days. Yes... a for loop... a variable hasn't changed. But since GM7 days, we don't have execute_string(), we don't have triggers, we don't have registry stuff or some of the particle types. We have however gained in other areas - passing arrays around is now possible, accessors are now there, We have physics, totally new networking, shaders, vertex buffers and YYC/HTML5 changes things even more.

 

There are no demos/tutorial's showing how to use a variable or a for loop. ALL demos/tutorials show how to use features of the engine - and this is vastly different. Hanging onto this old stuff not only frustrates new users, but IF they get stuff working, shows them old obsolete ways of doing things most of the time.

 

I'm very much still open to which option we take - I'm the one that decided to kick this discussion off. I could have just gone ahead and archived it all and be damned. But I'm on the fence at the moment, and want to see if what others thing, AND if anyone has any other suggestions. There is a big difference with what I'd like personally, to what I think is best for everyone - including those newcomers yet to join who I do have to consider.

 

Show me some tutorials that A) are tutorials and not "engines" which should be on the Marketplace anyway now, and B) are modern and good enough to keep. Same with the other content..... what should be kept - what is valuable for the future, not what are you sentimental about because it means something to just you.

 

When you get down to it... the easiest option for us is to just upgrade, but since it's going to take time, I figured it was worth discussing possible alternatives.

 

 


Mike, are you still figuring out what forum software to use or are you staying with IP.Board?

To be honest, it's just a time thing - I have very little to go researching new forums. I'll take a little look, but we're fairly comfortable with IP.B, so....not sure yet. Probably. 

(Unless someone has a great suggestion, then I'm willing to go take a look). Remember new software is ONLY possible for option 3.


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#126 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:22 PM

Oh, hey lets just use this.

 

What options are being looked into for new forum software if option 3 is taken?
I'd like to know what the new forum might look like.


Edited by Lukan Spellweaver, 06 January 2016 - 12:24 PM.

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#127 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:24 PM

Oh, hey lets just use this.

You're now on my list..................... 


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#128 Smarty

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:36 PM

There are no demos/tutorial's showing how to use a variable or a for loop. ALL demos/tutorials show how to use features of the engine - and this is vastly different. Hanging onto this old stuff not only frustrates new users, but IF they get stuff working, shows them old obsolete ways of doing things most of the time.

 

If you favor option 3 to get rid of the dead wood, will we have another forum reset when GM:Next comes out? Because that could potentially break with any Q&A or tutorial on this forum, and the next.


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#129 GameDevDan

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:41 PM

I disagree hugely here. GML has changed a LOT since GM7 days. Yes... a for loop... a variable hasn't changed. But since GM7 days, we don't have execute_string(), we don't have triggers, we don't have registry stuff or some of the particle types. We have however gained in other areas - passing arrays around is now possible, accessors are now there, We have physics, totally new networking, shaders, vertex buffers and YYC/HTML5 changes things even more.
 
There are no demos/tutorial's showing how to use a variable or a for loop. ALL demos/tutorials show how to use features of the engine - and this is vastly different. Hanging onto this old stuff not only frustrates new users, but IF they get stuff working, shows them old obsolete ways of doing things most of the time.


Big areas of it still haven't changed very much. Execution, registry stuff and other Windows-centric functions were always pretty specialist. Syntax, mathematics, drawing and a bunch of other basic functionality remains very similar or exactly the same as way back in GM6. The new additions you mentioned are obviously fantastic, and there are tutorials and demos for those, but they don't subtract from the educational value of the older tutorials and demos. The tutorials and examples forum contains 1,798 topics. I grant they're not all useful, but they are also not all outdated or filled with coprighted material.

 

You say these tutorials frustrate new users - but I haven't seen that. As someone who has helped out a lot in the tech forums, and was in CS at YoYo, I can't say that outdated tutorials ever presented that big a problem.
 

Show me some tutorials that A) are tutorials and not "engines" which should be on the Marketplace anyway now, and B) are modern and good enough to keep. Same with the other content..... what should be kept - what is valuable for the future, not what are you sentimental about because it means something to just you.

 

 

There are >1700 topics in the tutorials forum. What you're asking me to do is exactly the problem with option 2 in the original post. Searching through those to decide which ones are useful is going to be very time consuming and what is useful or not is very subjective (as proven by our debate over these very topics!)

 

I am not sentimental about any of the 5 topics I listed, I found them by going into the forum, sorting by most replies and then looking for ones with recent posts. Within 5 minutes, I have those examples of topics that are clearly popular on the GMC. You said you think we'd be better off without them, but if they've survived this long on the forum the end-users clearly like them or find them useful.


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#130 icuurd12b42

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:45 PM

Frankly I would not do anything until you have a system like sourceforge incorporated in the product... The new forum should be incorporated in your current yoyo login system to prevent name grabs

as for the good demos and tutorials, there used to be a staff choice (oh it's still there) and most the stuff I selected to be in there (When I was a Moderator) should still work in studio. no tutorial with execute_string or any of the now deprecated functions (object_add_event sort of deal) would ever be chosen unless it was about that function. There are/were a lot of tutorials in there that far surpassed anything available in the tutorial feature in Studio's tutorial mechanism or available in the asset store in the way of diversity.

Edited by icuurd12b42, 06 January 2016 - 12:48 PM.

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#131 Lukasmah

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:55 PM

Oh, hey lets just use this.

You're now on my list.....................

Pretty sure he's on everyone's list for that.
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#132 TDSrock

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:29 PM

Regardless of what happens there should always remain legacy access. So many questions have been posed in the past that are worth keeping around so I can tell people in the QA forums that they should have researched the issue some more on their own(bwhahahaha)
So if you guys opt to remove sections, I would implore you always hold a full legacy version that is read only of this site.
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#133 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:34 PM

Having to re-answer questions because the old answers aren't there, and they can't search in the forum itself is a good point......  I wonder how long it would take to build up the common questions/answers again.


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#134 TDSrock

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:48 PM

Having to re-answer questions because the old answers aren't there, and they can't search in the forum itself is a good point......  I wonder how long it would take to build up the common questions/answers again.

I do still find myself answer basic questions time and time again regarding switch syntax ect. But even then the larger that base of simple answers is the larger the chance google's algorithm finds them the correct topic for their issue.

I reckon rebuilding the common questions will happen regardless of if there is a legacy version or not. I think it would go allot slower though if there is a legacy version around.
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#135 ShaunS

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:50 PM

I want the forum preserved for purely selfish reasons, you see. I started my entire Game Development life here. This place means a lot to me, as mushy as that sounds. Made a lot of friends here, and it has actually made me who I am. As ridiculous as that sounds, I am really attached to this place.

I value and respect that idea and can see how that rings true for many. I don't think it's ridiculous at all which is why I don't want to lose content if we can avoid doing so. At the same time I want us to take steps to improve a useful and important community tool that has become an intimidating labyrinth for new users and is not structured in a way that promotes healthy growth or useful discussion.

 

I also respect the position aired that some of those problems could be solved by shifting and merging forums and threads around rather than having to completely start anew. There are a number of advantages to starting anew however not the least of which is clearing very out of date content which is a very real and damaging source of confusion to many GM users (many of whom, none forum users, still are unable to distinguish between GM1-8 and GM:Studio!).

 

The question is whether the advantages of doing something like that outweigh the issues it would cause, and what perhaps a middle-ground might even be that benefits as many people as possible.


Edited by ShaunS, 06 January 2016 - 01:52 PM.

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#136 chance

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 02:31 PM


 

(snip) The new forum should be incorporated in your current yoyo login system to prevent name grabs

 
I'm lukewarm about linking the GMC with YoYo's main site where financial transactions are initiated.  I realize YoYo contracts out the final financial transaction.  But given the GMCs track record of attacks, this would concern me.  
 
We just have to accept the fact that Option 3 would cause many long-time members to lose their user names.    Especially for generic sounding names like mine, for example.  But even more specific names will be taken.  It's inevitable.
 
Not saying that's a show-stopper.  Just something to be prepared for.


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#137 trg601

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 02:32 PM

I think option 3 would be the best, if that means we can still find everything from the old forum.

(I search the forums when I have coding problems quite a bit)


Edited by trg601, 06 January 2016 - 02:35 PM.

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Because of the forum being archived, the above post is probably pretty old and may not reflect my current opinion.
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#138 Juju

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 02:44 PM


 A huge amount of old content, even stuff from GM6, are still absolutely usable with a little bit of work.

I have an issue with this kind of thing. Yes, it might work if you know what your doing - hell, I could take stuff from earlier and rework it into anything. But if your not that experienced with GM, this stuff is utterly confusing as your trying hard to get something working - and it says there! Right in front of you that this should work, but it doesn't. They don't have the knowledge required to know which parts need work and which don't. This is my biggest issue with the historical stuff, for the most part, its vastly outdated.

 

Again personally..... the more I read, the more I'm coming down in favour of option 3, but there is certainly nothing yet decided - lots of folk both in the GMC and in the office have strong opinions on this.  

 

If the archived forums have a big red "This May Not Work Any More" across the top, Option 3 solves your concerns. Whilst it's hardly a frictionless experience, making sure people know very clearly what is and isn't legacy code/technique is a massive improvement over what we have now. You can funnel new users to the new forums with up-to-date moderation and content whilst still maintaining read-only access to over a decade of accumulated knowledge.

 

A new forum is a fantastic opportunity to create a new base of community support in anticipation of continued growth. That it's going to take a while is understandable if concerning... the last thing that we want to happen is a loss of momentum, driving more GM users to be increasingly fragmented. That sucks culturally and it also sucks for the business - at the very least, strong P2P support reduces load on your bugtracker (e.g. the recent Win10 update). A new forum also gives YYG an opportunity to engage in some rebranding, should that be part of the overall plan.

 

 

I'm lukewarm about linking the GMC with YoYo's main site where financial transactions are initiated.  I realize YoYo contracts out the final financial transaction.  But given the GMCs track record of attacks, this would concern me.  
 
We just have to accept the fact that Option 3 would cause many long-time members to lose their user names.    Especially for somewhat generic sounding names (like mine, for example).  But even more specific names will be taken.  It's inevitable.

 

+1. Also, if anyone takes my username I will shiv them.


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#139 Smarty

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 02:50 PM

We just have to accept the fact that Option 3 would cause many long-time members to lose their user names.    Especially for generic sounding names like mine, for example.  But even more specific names will be taken.  It's inevitable.

If option 3 is followed, then I think it would not be a great effort to import usernames and attached Email addresses from the old forum. That's minimal. Members who want their username back can then do a password reset which would be sent to their Email address, change it, and log in.
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#140 stainedofmind

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 02:53 PM

Didn't read the entire thing, cause frankly, I don't have time, but here's my two cents.

 

Definitely up for Option 3, or a derivative of it.  There is a lot of old, barely useful information on this forum these days, and as Mike said, soon it;ll almost be ALL out of date.  Granted, there IS still a lot of good thing on here too, hence why we would archive this forum.  It's silly how resistant to change this community can be sometimes.


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#141 GameGoblin

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 02:57 PM

I'm up for option #1 there because I have no other choice. It has been made clear that the user DB will not be moved and people would have to sign up again. I don't find it amusing at all. ;)

Loss of profile information (e.g. post count, reputation, etc.) also makes me feel that option #3 is not a worthy one. It has taken a long time for the GMC to develop into an active community and starting everything from stratch means that people would have to work even harder to re-develop into one. I agree with chance on username stealing as well.
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#142 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 03:05 PM

The new forum should be incorporated in your current yoyo login system to prevent name grabs...

Never gonna happen.  Forums get hacked all the time, and I'll never place the safety of financials below the convenience of logining in or keeping a user name.

No way is the forum software getting access to that stuff.

 

Also usernames.... When you join a new forum, you always start with your preference and then work your way through your list in order - it's the nature of forums. *shrug* Not a massive concern to me.

 

mdf200....or mdf201...or 202....etc. meh.

 

If someone is trying to impersonate you - then I have an issue with that, and you can let a mod know and we'll revoke their access and give it over to you.


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#143 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 03:06 PM

I feel like the more active members are respectable enough not to actually steal another user's name.

I mean, most of us all talk to some degree and know each other at least in passing.

 

I'm honestly not that into option 1 unless it's absolutely necessary. This forum is bloated with content from an age long gone. The days of GM 5, 6, &7 are long gone, and GM 8/.1 is a dying breed now. The information here is useful if you are working in the legacy software, sure, but with even Studio 1.x headed out soon, this stuff doesn't need to be actively maintained much longer. It should be archived though, for people still requiring the information, and maybe for some nostalgia.

 

I want the place secure. If that means YoYo Tech licensing a new forum suite to do it, then I want that.

 

EDIT: Also, Mike, that's incredibly upvote worthy, but alas I've run dry of points to throw. Thanks for not leaking my credit card and license deets to forum hackers. A+


Edited by Lukan Spellweaver, 06 January 2016 - 03:07 PM.

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#144 kupo15

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 03:14 PM

Is it possible for this current forum or for a tweaked option 2, to move everything to the new one and to lock all topics and require the OP's of those topics to PM a mod to have their thread's reopened? Then anyone who doesn't take steps in reviving their topic will sift to the bottom as they can't be replied too and this would limit the legwork of having dedicated people figure out what's important. It will naturally cull the bloat out of relevance and essentially be no more intrusive than archiving it all

 

 

 

Show me some tutorials that A) are tutorials and not "engines" which should be on the Marketplace anyway now, and B) are modern and good enough to keep. Same with the other content..... what should be kept - what is valuable for the future, not what are you sentimental about because it means something to just you.

 

When you get down to it... the easiest option for us is to just upgrade, but since it's going to take time, I figured it was worth discussing possible alternatives.

 

 

Several others I've seen:

DarkeDeNight

Suh Burb

 

I also have a ongoing game topic linked in my sig that has been around since 2013 that is still active and important to me for the future that is up there with in activity with the previously posted game examples. It shows the complete development log of my game as well as how the community interactions have been. I think that sort of stuff not only for me but the other WIPs posted is important to further building their community. 

 

I guess I could just link to the old thread in the OP if anyone wants to view it. Though it would be nice for new members to go an active game thread with the built up view count, post count and community interactionpresent instead of it looking like a shadow of its former self 


Edited by kupo15, 06 January 2016 - 04:23 PM.

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#145 amateurhour

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 03:16 PM

I've used phpbb and vanilla and moderated some forums in the past and it's going to take forever and a day to hand pick what is felt to be "important" topics and copy them over, and you're going to have some salty forumers going that route.

 

Option 3 is really the only good choice. It's clear there are some issues with the current software and if the corporate overlords are giving you the green light to move forward with new software and support you'll likely pick a better option that will fit. I've merged forum databases (sql) from one source to another and nothing EVER lines up right. Doing a full copy (option 1) will end up with a lot of broken images and text and will make searching almost impossible, in addition to just looking bad.

 

If copying over everything is going to still pose security risks or possibly be incompatible with the new version the best bet is option 3. I've seen countless forums do this in the past and it works out well. That way all of the information is there and searchable and still archived but new content can flourish. It may not look pretty, but it'll still be there for anyone that needs to find it and you can start fresh with more secure and faster running software that will cause less problems with server load.

 

I vote 3.


Having said all of that though, make sure whatever you go with moving forward is load balanced because you're going to get a huge influx of new posts with people copying over their game dev blogs if they get archived. This will be offset by a lot of legacy users that are no longer here not posting and users that may not reset their passwords or choose not to post for a time, but it'll still be an increased server load between the new software and clearing out the old forums as well.


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#146 RujiK

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 03:18 PM

We should just use the yoyo steam forum.

 

That was a super popular idea awhile back.


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#147 Smarty

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 03:19 PM

Didn't read the entire thing, cause frankly, I don't have time, but here's my two cents.
 
(snip) It's silly how resistant to change this community can be sometimes.

Shame. Had you read this topic entirely you'd have seen that hardly any resistance to change has been expressed, so far, and that your remark is uncalled for. People value the content of this forum and they have given valid reasons to try and preserve some of it. Many do not seem to mind archiving and moving onward, at all.
 

Also usernames.... When you join a new forum, you always start with your preference and then work your way through your list in order - it's the nature of forums. *shrug* Not a massive concern to me.
 
mdf200....or mdf201...or 202....etc. meh.

I find that acceptable for communities I am new to, but I do not like name shuffles for communities that I have learned to know. I appreciate knowing who I am talking to. I can't count on people to follow your suggested naming conventions, or even know what they'd use as alternatives. An import of names and Emails should be easy. You can always ditch unclaimed accounts later.
 

If someone is trying to impersonate you - then I have an issue with that, and you can let a mod know and we'll revoke their access and give it over to you.

How would you know it's them?  :snitch: 


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#148 chance

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 03:21 PM

I feel like the more active members are respectable enough not to actually steal another user's name.

 
I agree stealing isn't the major concern.    I was specifically referring to the more generic names like mine.   Names like yours aren't likely to be taken by accident.
 
 

Also, Mike, that's incredibly upvote worthy, but alas I've run dry of points to throw. Thanks for not leaking my credit card and license deets to forum hackers. A+


You're thanking Mike for not leaking your credit card?  :P


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#149 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 03:33 PM

You're thanking Mike for not leaking your credit card?  :P

Yes? It's good that he values the security of users above the convenience of logging in to the GMC.


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#150 Juju

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 03:34 PM

It'd be a bad sign if immediately after a security breach Mike advocated worse security protocol.


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