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GMC "Fresh Start"? - Your feedback wanted


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#51 @Alex@

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 10:51 PM

A clean start is most certainly the best overall option however there is a lot of good information on this forum. Not only in the Tutorials board(s) but also in the Questions and Game Design boards. Some sort of archival process should be undertaken. 

 

I don't think moving entire boards over is a good solution to archiving, it's too broad. For every gold nugget topics there's dozens of slurry topics. User's should have to re-post tutorials, and preferably update them for whatever the latest stable version of Studio is. The problem with this approach is that some "gold nugget" tutorials, the ancient ones that cover something extremely fundamental, no longer have active creators and these would be extremely valuable to have on the new forum. I'm specifically thinking of the "Shooting out of the tip of a bullet" and "Smart Codes" topics that I referred to greatly when I was learning GML. The alternative, as I see it, is to go through the 'moved over' board and remove outdated or non-functioning tutorials after the conversion.


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#52 obscene

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 10:52 PM

Just to throw my two cents in, it's probably already been said 20 times. When I have a problem, or wonder how I might do something better I google it and read GMC posts from years and years ago. Even one guy's comment or some small segment of code can illumminate things I had never thought of or knew existed. As long as I can go SOMEWHERE and search INTUITIVELY (not some crappy GMC search which thinks I'm flooding if I search twice in 2 minutes) I'm happy.


Edited by obscene, 05 January 2016 - 10:58 PM.

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#53 Lukasmah

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 10:54 PM

Personally, I'm fine with all options, as long as the old content is preserved as it is, without removing topics or subforums from the archive or whatever.
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#54 Surgeon_

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 11:06 PM

 
  • The new forum isn't radically different from the current one. (I personally really love the dark theme for this forum)

I agree with this very much - the dark theme is awesome (and also AMOLED-friendly)!

 

Other than that, Game Geisha is impeccably right and I also this that Number 3 is the best choice.

 

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Edited by Surgeon_, 05 January 2016 - 11:10 PM.

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#55 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 11:12 PM

In terms of keeping searchability if we opted for option 3.... I think we'd probably do this by having the gmc.yoyogames.com point to the archive, then use forums.yoyogames.com (or something) to point to the new set up. Then we'd put a link front and centre on the GMC domain pointing to the new one.

 

I don't think changing the domain would matter. Folk would update their bookmarks, and then that'd be that. So all we'd lose is the "gmc." part, that way all searches  on Google will still work, links will still work etc.

 

I like the idea of manually porting over tutorials, but I think we'd have to leave that to the folk that posted them, we just don't have the manpower to go through everything.....


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#56 Lukasmah

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 11:13 PM

So, the entirety of the forum gets archived, but nothing gets moved to the new forums unless the creators move it?
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#57 MonkeyMaw

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 11:15 PM

Option (3), all the way. There is nothing wrong with archiving what's here, and I for one would love to see it start fresh.


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#58 Yal

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 11:27 PM

Bleeh, change. I hate change. And I've worked so hard for this post count...

 

 

 

I guess I won't mind in the long run, though. I'll have to think about this in order to get a proper, well-founded opinion instead of just my gut feeling.


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#59 orange08

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 11:31 PM

I agree with Yellow and Monkey. Option 3 seems best.

Just archive the current forum, create a new one on a different URL...

 

also:

No off-topic section please (see quote in signature)

and

Bring back the cage match!!

 

 

and congrats to Chance, who, on the new forums, will finally be able to reach a more respectable reputation rating than he has now:

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Edited by orange08, 05 January 2016 - 11:36 PM.

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#60 GameGeisha

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 11:40 PM

So, the entirety of the forum gets archived, but nothing gets moved to the new forums unless the creators move it?

 

Of course.

 

One of the rationales for a complete reboot is to segregate stale content from active content. If the original creator of a piece of content isn't around to put it back up after it goes down memory lane, would he/she be around to support it?

 

Many tutorial, extension and example authors (myself included) have offerings that date back years. A reboot is a strong encouragement to re-evaluate each individually for whether they are still relevant, in need of tune ups here and there, or obsolete altogether.

 

Quality over quantity.

 

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#61 mr magnus

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 11:42 PM

3. I'd like that things like Jam topics, games, chats, events, various things, bits, nooks and crannies remained. The essence of the GMC Culture would be nice to be able to refer to.

While I agree we need a pretty heavy tune-up I'd rather not start anew from nothing. This place is a massive bank of information and posts on issues. I've had several topics come to life years after they die because people where using it as a reference/Help. It's important that information on Game maker and its issues remain accessible; heck, I've searched the site for solutions to my problems and even if they are really specific I might find a good lead. 


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#62 Lukasmah

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 11:53 PM

No off-topic section please (see quote in signature)

Off-topic section please (see quote in Orange's signature)

Edited by Lukasmah, 05 January 2016 - 11:53 PM.

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#63 RekNepZ

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 11:56 PM

No off-topic section please

Off -topic is what has kept me here. I'd probably be only active during jams without it.

 

Bring back the cage match!!

That would be great! Not sure how many people would participate though.


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#64 Ninety

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:03 AM

1 or 3 but not 2. Also, I hate to be "that guy" but there are valuable things in this forum apart from tutorials and a couple of Jam threads... Many people actually have built up a "community" here especially in Off Topic and it'd be a shame to see all that history go to waste.

 

I actually have an alternate proposal: keep most of the GMC the same, but archive all submissions in (for example) the tutorial sections older than 6 months old, and put it in a different board so people don't accidentally stumble on it and get the wrong ideas. Same thing that was done for the old Team Requests sub forum, basically. Most OT/Community/Game project threads don't need to be archived. Just archive the stuff that's objectively "out of date" and leave the rest.


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#65 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:08 AM

I vote we call it GMC: Next or GMC: 2.0. Gotta keep up with that YY:G naming scheme.


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#66 Smarty

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:24 AM

The options are listed in the order of most to least work. I suggest least, after all those software updates and database upgrades you don't want to find out that your database has lost some of its internal consistency.

Besides, I'm already looking forward to watching people explode when they find out their reputations are zeroed.

Speaking of which, will you be migrating at the very least some minimal account information? I don't want to find out that when I move to the new forum, someone already claimed my username, and started posting insightful and relevant topics on my behalf.
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#67 GameGeisha

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:27 AM

 

No off-topic section please (see quote in signature)

Off-topic section please (see quote in Orange's signature)

 

 

 

No off-topic section please

Off -topic is what has kept me here. I'd probably be only active during jams without it.

 

 

1 or 3 but not 2. Also, I hate to be "that guy" but there are valuable things in this forum apart from tutorials and a couple of Jam threads... Many people actually have built up a "community" here especially in Off Topic and it'd be a shame to see all that history go to waste.

 

Here is my proposal to the YYGF/Off-Topic crowd --- why don't you organize your own forum instead?

 

The Off-Topic section has been marginalized to the point that it is no longer consistent with the rest of the GMC. It doesn't score for posting counts, it is hidden from the public, admins tweet repeatedly about removing it, non-regulars often hold negative opinions of users who frequent it. Is this still an environment conducive to your continued participation?

 

Some of you are only here for the GMC Jam and would be unlikely to post otherwise. That's fine, what's the problem with making fewer posts? The GMC is first and foremost a community about using and supporting GM, you are doing neither by playing around on Off-Topic.

 

Why insist on your continued presence on the GMC where your Off-Topic clique is increasingly marginalized by and non-compliant with YoYo's new management, when you can free yourselves by defining your own realm?

 

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#68 eyezik

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:38 AM

If you were a ship captain anything but number one would lead to mutiny!

 

I don't see how starting "Fresh" would help. It's not like the old stuff gets in the way...

 

try being a new user, searching for ..X.., what you find is pages upon pages of broken links and outdated info that no longer works.  ...mixed in with the far and few good, helpful threads.

 

 

If you were a ship captain anything but number one would lead to mutiny!

 

I don't see how starting "Fresh" would help. It's not like the old stuff gets in the way...

The forum structure as is is incredibly complex and convuluted. We have separate rules threads for each individual board and they are increasingly difficult to follow and moderate for. We have areas that are semi obsolete, we have content that is hugely out of time sync with other content in the same places, it's all just very messy in here! Restructuring and clearing up what we have and improving it for the better is a gargantuan task due to how the forum has evolved, unless we were to start again.

 

 

'incredibly complex and convuluted'

 

 

2)  We start the GMC fresh but we carry over select, important content from the forum such as tutorials and so on.


Who decides what is "important content" ?

 

Either way, I volunteer to moderate the new So On Forum.

 

 

why cant all existing members do this?  see an old thread you like and want kept around...message a Mod.  ?

 

1 would be ideal to me, I could understand 2 if the "non-important" stuff was kept.

Would be sad to see over a decade of everyone's (mine included) contributions to the GMC just be swept aside as "you're old now". :(

One big con with option 3: Anyone landing on the forum from Googling their GM issues will probably land on the locked legacy copy and then be stuck with no ability to add to the discussion.

 

you are old now, along with the old non functioning functions from days of the old.

no offence, we all get old, but its time to make room for the new, fresh, up-to-date..

 

From an ex-staff point of view, I would also say this:

 

When attending floor shows like GIS and GDC, one thing that stood out for a lot of people was the community. A lot of people said that what they found good about GameMaker, when compared to other software, was the ability to type in "how do I do X in GameMaker" and get a decent result. If the user has trouble with the tutorial they find, they then have the option of commenting in the topic to alert the OP, or any other passing member, and get helpful feedback from them. If the original poster's connection to the topic is lost or the topic is locked, as may be the case in option 2 or 3, this may result in a worse experience for new users trying to find help.

 

was the ability to type in "how do I do X in GameMaker"

 

honestly, this rarely worked for or helped me.  again, the amount of broken links, long gone members whom cant update, and overall amount of crud that is no longer supported.

 

i NEVER search in GMS, only ever use google via 'how to X in gms'  always gets better results..


Edited by eyezik, 06 January 2016 - 12:40 AM.

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#69 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:39 AM

Off-topic is a rather large part of the community.

Despite YoYo's continued efforts to say this is a tech support forum, it is still a community. And that includes the non GM users.

Some of the best and well known users here post in off-topic regularly as well as making content with GM.

The C in GMC stands for Community, let's try to keep it that way. Otherwise we may as well call it PlayTech Support Forum.


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#70 eyezik

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:44 AM

 

 

Besides, I'm already looking forward to watching people explode when they find out find out their reputations are zeroed.

 

 

this is a joke right?

 

im still waiting for a warning point to be removed, been well over a year, and over 3 months since speaking to a mod, whom said 'yeah...i think its been long enough, we can do that..'

 

MHO get rid of the jokes and get more serious..


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#71 Mr. RPG

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:46 AM

It sounds like this forum upgrade is still a long ways off.

I'm in favor of completely restarting the forums (besides user data), which I call option 4. No archive. Nothing. Unfortunately no one will agree with me. :P

Any of the options sound good to me though, but the best option is option 4, destroy everything.

I agree with pretty much everything GameGeisha has said, by the way.
 

In terms of keeping searchability if we opted for option 3.... I think we'd probably do this by having the gmc.yoyogames.com point to the archive, then use forums.yoyogames.com (or something) to point to the new set up. Then we'd put a link front and centre on the GMC domain pointing to the new one.
 
I don't think changing the domain would matter. Folk would update their bookmarks, and then that'd be that. So all we'd lose is the "gmc." part, that way all searches  on Google will still work, links will still work etc.
 
I like the idea of manually porting over tutorials, but I think we'd have to leave that to the folk that posted them, we just don't have the manpower to go through everything.....


I strongly disagree with this. The domain should not change. It will simply cause a lot of confusion. Call the archive legacygmc.yoyogames.com or something instead.

Edit: Thinking about it, it might be better to wait to upgrade the forums until 2.0 is actually released.

Edited by Mr. RPG, 06 January 2016 - 12:50 AM.

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#72 MrJackSparrow2

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:47 AM

I agree with option 3 solely for searching purposes. It's nice to search something and find your answer without making a new thread and waiting. Two concerns though:

1) How would user accounts transfer? I don't really think post count or karma is a concern, but there are big names on the forum that would be a shame if an "imposter" account was created before the actual owner got to sign up. It's easy to tell the quality and reliability of a posts info by the user who posted it (we all know the names we trust or roll our eyes to see). Furthermore, an imposter could really trash the reputation of some folks. Consider an imposter taking the name of a marketplace author (the TMC dudes for example, great stuff there!). How would you handle that? I'm sure this is unlikely, but something probably to think about.

2) Is this a bit premature? Nobody really knows the status of GMS2/Next/Squirrel/Zues/whatever cute name it is now. If it's imminent why not wait to have it separe from this forum and start fresh then? There's a decent bit of overlap between GM versions in all forums, so it'd be nice to have forums specific to GM versions (no, not the legacy subforum, I mean the entire forum). If somebody asks a question or makes a suggestion you would just know how to answer depending on the product being used. It seems like a fresh start would be a good time to remove some fragmentation (also, is it really nnecessary to have a beta and EA build? They update at odd intervals so it's hard to say which version is more up to date. Ideally the EA, that's not the case frequently it seems.).

Either way, I'm all for a more secure forum. Hopefully it'll bring a better mobile experience too?

Edited by MrJackSparrow2, 06 January 2016 - 12:56 AM.

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#73 Ninety

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 12:55 AM

@GG: Oh please. Most of us OT users are active within Jams, other projects, Game Design forum, and elsewhere. Just because we don't generally hang out in Advanced Programming doesn't mean we don't make a contribution to this forum. If I was only here to chat, I'd be somewhere else that isn't repeatedly threatened to be deleted :)
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#74 Mercerenies

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:04 AM

Here is my proposal to the YYGF/Off-Topic crowd --- why don't you organize your own forum instead?

The Off-Topic section has been marginalized to the point that it is no longer consistent with the rest of the GMC. It doesn't score for posting counts, it is hidden from the public, admins tweet repeatedly about removing it, non-regulars often hold negative opinions of users who frequent it. Is this still an environment conducive to your continued participation?


I'd be open to that, if it worked. But it doesn't. When the YYGF was being closed, we tried that. Nobody could agree on who would host it, how it would be run, etc. and we ended up with about three different YYGF 2.0's, all of which are now defunct. If the ex-YYGFers are meant to start our own forum, we will likely need at least some guidance from the existing community moderators to get things straight. And even then, as with the YYGF->GMC transition, we'll lose good people who simply won't make the transition. I've barely spoken to AEG, Genvo, ATH, CGG, and several others since YYGF closed down, simply because they didn't move over here.

Edited by Mercerenies, 06 January 2016 - 01:05 AM.

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#75 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:13 AM

@MrJackSparrow2:

The new forum has nothing to do with the release of GMS 2, it's to increase forum security.
We've been getting hacked more and more regularly lately, and this was what brought the last YYG forum to it's knees.

They have decided to take action before it's too late this time.

 

Also, could Noc or Mike or someone who knows please comment on the survival of Off-Topic in this new forum?(when possible, of course. timezones and what not)
 


Edited by Lukan Spellweaver, 06 January 2016 - 01:17 AM.

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#76 Lukasmah

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:18 AM

Also, could Noc or Mike or someone who knows please comment on the survival of Off-Topic in this new forum?


And in the archive. I mean, it's hidden to guests now. Does that mean it will be invisible to guests in the archive, therefore disappearing?
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#77 dape

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:26 AM

Hello everyone!

 

Soon we're planning on upgrading the outdated software and underlying structure of the GMC servers for a number of beneficial reasons not the least of which is increased security. After this is done the forum software will be reinstated and this has presented us with a few interesting options & opportunities concerning the future of the GMC.

 

3) We start completely fresh, and archive off our old forum content so that it remains accessible in a legacy read-only form.

This sounds cool.


I don't trust YYG with forum updates, you guys tend to be a shady as you possibly can be about it all. I mean, I'm surprised you actually thought to ask us this time, rather than just waiting for the next security breach and yelling "surprise" when we log back in to a completely different website (which I'm sort of convinced is what is going to happen anyway).

It is not really their fault (yyg) but the dudes that make the forum software. They are kindof sloppy in the last 2-3 years, made my own community hurt with their programming...


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#78 Greenhawk

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:29 AM

But in addition to all the forum history over in the sections I frequent (Jams, forum games, and OT), there are also a lot of old games. I have at least three or four finished projects in the Finished Games section that haven't been released anywhere else. Kill the GMC's topics and those games are gone forever. Seriously, I don't think I'm the only one who would have trouble finding the source code for projects finished ten years ago on a different computer.

Agreed! I think the new forum would work if all the bots and extraneous posts were eradicated. In my opinion, the forum looked a bit more cleaner when certain subforums were taken down and when the Novies Q/A changed to Programming Q/A (It was a weird but a very quick transition). But anyways, archiving this forum would be chaos and like Mercenaries said:

 

 

I've already sat through one YYG forum nuking. I'm not about to sit through another

Edited by Greenhawk, 06 January 2016 - 01:30 AM.

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#79 dape

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:34 AM

IF we keep everything, we have to stay with IP.Board a the DB will be automatically upgraded. If we do option 3, we have a free choice - but IP.B is still a good option. All public forum software has flaws, and all public forum software gets hacked. Its down to what you know, and it's feature set.

IPS 4.x.x is pretty nice in terms of seo, editor and overall administrability. It is definately better than IP.board 3.4.x and will play very nice if the leash is carefully kept. Just be aware that converting from the old to the new will take some days, Invision put a lot of background tasks to convert stuff over..


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#80 GameGeisha

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:39 AM

 In terms of keeping searchability if we opted for option 3.... I think we'd probably do this by having the gmc.yoyogames.com point to the archive, then use forums.yoyogames.com (or something) to point to the new set up. Then we'd put a link front and centre on the GMC domain pointing to the new one.
 
I don't think changing the domain would matter. Folk would update their bookmarks, and then that'd be that. So all we'd lose is the "gmc." part, that way all searches  on Google will still work, links will still work etc.
 
I like the idea of manually porting over tutorials, but I think we'd have to leave that to the folk that posted them, we just don't have the manpower to go through everything.....


I strongly disagree with this. The domain should not change. It will simply cause a lot of confusion. Call the archive legacygmc.yoyogames.com or something instead.

 

Your alternative has a large number of technical problems:

 

  • Massive link rot (internal and inbound) on the scale of what happened on the Sandbox.
  • Search engine spiders would need to waste time re-crawling the archive for results.
  • If the new GMC decides to continue using IPB, existing permalinks on the Wayback Machine will eventually reference one archived topic and one completely unrelated new topic.
  • Until they realize that the forum has been completely rebooted and expire the cached pages, same issue as above with search engine spiders.
  • Inability to concurrently work on both archiving and setting up the new server.

 

None of these apply under Mike's proposal.

 

It's considerably easier to update the URL we type in to get to the GMC, than it is to update archived links from all over the world.

 

@GG: Oh please. Most of us OT users are active within Jams, other projects, Game Design forum, and elsewhere. Just because we don't generally hang out in Advanced Programming doesn't mean we don't make a contribution to this forum. If I was only here to chat, I'd be somewhere else that isn't repeatedly threatened to be deleted :)

 

I never asked you or anyone from the Off-Topic crowd to stop posting on the GMC. I asked you and the Off-Topic crowd to limit your posting on the GMC to GM-related matters, and save the rest for a new forum under your own administration.

 

 

Here is my proposal to the YYGF/Off-Topic crowd --- why don't you organize your own forum instead?

The Off-Topic section has been marginalized to the point that it is no longer consistent with the rest of the GMC. It doesn't score for posting counts, it is hidden from the public, admins tweet repeatedly about removing it, non-regulars often hold negative opinions of users who frequent it. Is this still an environment conducive to your continued participation?


I'd be open to that, if it worked. But it doesn't. When the YYGF was being closed, we tried that. Nobody could agree on who would host it, how it would be run, etc. and we ended up with about three different YYGF 2.0's, all of which are now defunct. If the ex-YYGFers are meant to start our own forum, we will likely need at least some guidance from the existing community moderators to get things straight. And even then, as with the YYGF->GMC transition, we'll lose good people who simply won't make the transition. I've barely spoken to AEG, Genvo, ATH, CGG, and several others since YYGF closed down, simply because they didn't move over here.

 

 

If you need some guidance, then why don't you ask for it?

 

Jobo, dadio and chance are all seasoned moderators with significant activity in Off-Topic, just to name a few. I'm sure you can convince one or two of them to help you set up the new forum and take in a few apprentices as future administrators.

 

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#81 dape

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:39 AM

I agree with this very much - the dark theme is awesome (and also AMOLED-friendly)!

If they (YYG) keep paying Invision for the upgrade from IP.Board to IPS then the old themes will not work anymore on the new software.

But there are lots of improvements in IPS like very beautiful email notifications and a better and very nice editor for all of us.


Edited by dape, 06 January 2016 - 01:42 AM.

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#82 Mr. RPG

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:40 AM

Here is my proposal to the YYGF/Off-Topic crowd --- why don't you organize your own forum instead?

The Off-Topic section has been marginalized to the point that it is no longer consistent with the rest of the GMC. It doesn't score for posting counts, it is hidden from the public, admins tweet repeatedly about removing it, non-regulars often hold negative opinions of users who frequent it. Is this still an environment conducive to your continued participation?


I'd be open to that, if it worked. But it doesn't. When the YYGF was being closed, we tried that. Nobody could agree on who would host it, how it would be run, etc. and we ended up with about three different YYGF 2.0's, all of which are now defunct. If the ex-YYGFers are meant to start our own forum, we will likely need at least some guidance from the existing community moderators to get things straight. And even then, as with the YYGF->GMC transition, we'll lose good people who simply won't make the transition. I've barely spoken to AEG, Genvo, ATH, CGG, and several others since YYGF closed down, simply because they didn't move over here.


Why am I not surprised?
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#83 eyezik

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:44 AM

 

 

  • Search engine spiders would need to waste time re-crawling the archive for results.

 

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

 

because we should all worry about the time it takes a BOT to wander about..  its a bot, not a human on a time clock..


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#84 Otyugra

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:46 AM

More and more, I feel like each of the three have really valid reasons which makes this even more difficult. Here are suggestions I have, regardless of the outcome.

  • Any person who has never posted content to the forum and hasn't been active in years gets deleted. (There must be a lot of people like this clogging up the forum servers. Introducing yourself in that one, measly topic doesn't count as making a post, as far as I am concerned.)
  • With exceptions, locked topics that are locked for breaking the rules get deleted.
  • Reputation gets reset. I see this doing more good than bad (aside for the initial upset it'd cause).
  • content can be reported as outdated to be removed by users and mods can delete whatever they believe is outdated from now on.

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#85 Mercerenies

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:48 AM

Any person who has never posted content to the forum and hasn't been active in years gets deleted. (There must be a lot of people like this clogging up the forum servers. Introducing yourself in that one, measly topic doesn't count as making a post, as far as I am concerned.)
With exceptions, locked topics that are locked for breaking the rules get deleted.
Reputation gets reset. I see this doing more good than bad (aside for the initial upset it'd cause).
content can be reported as outdated to be removed by users and mods can delete whatever they believe is outdated from now on.

Why does everyone keep suggesting handpicking users to keep? It's a giant database; I doubt there's a convenient command for "update some users, but delete others". That would require waaaaay too much work from staff.

I don't care about rep. I don't like the idea of all users having veto power over which topics get kept.

Edited by Mercerenies, 06 January 2016 - 01:48 AM.

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#86 Otyugra

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 02:27 AM

 

snip

Why does everyone keep suggesting handpicking users to keep? It's a giant database; I doubt there's a convenient command for "update some users, but delete others". That would require waaaaay too much work from staff.

I don't care about rep. I don't like the idea of all users having veto power over which topics get kept.

 

    And what do you suggest, ignore the problem of the old users? If someone else drops litter, the right thing to do is pick it up for them even if the litter is the size of a landfill. The zero post members are simply pieces of litter and someone needs to pick them up from this current forum. On the first page alone, 16 out of 20 people are members with zero posts who signed up many years ago, that is a huge problem that we can't pack up and run away from. All I ask is that these dummy accounts no longer take up space in the internet, however that is achieved doesn't matter to me. Your final sentence has nothing to do with my post.


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#87 Mr. RPG

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 02:28 AM

Your alternative has a large number of technical problems:

  • Massive link rot (internal and inbound) on the scale of what happened on the Sandbox.
  • Search engine spiders would need to waste time re-crawling the archive for results.
  • If the new GMC decides to continue using IPB, existing permalinks on the Wayback Machine will eventually reference one archived topic and one completely unrelated new topic.
  • Until they realize that the forum has been completely rebooted and expire the cached pages, same issue as above with search engine spiders.
  • Inability to concurrently work on both archiving and setting up the new server.
None of these apply under Mike's proposal.
 
It's considerably easier to update the URL we type in to get to the GMC, than it is to update archived links from all over the world.


You're completely right, I suppose it would be better to use a new domain then.

Whatever requires the least amount of work on YoYo Games' part I'm for.
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#88 Ninety

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 02:54 AM

 

@GG: Oh please. Most of us OT users are active within Jams, other projects, Game Design forum, and elsewhere. Just because we don't generally hang out in Advanced Programming doesn't mean we don't make a contribution to this forum. If I was only here to chat, I'd be somewhere else that isn't repeatedly threatened to be deleted :)

 
I never asked you or anyone from the Off-Topic crowd to stop posting on the GMC. I asked you and the Off-Topic crowd to limit your posting on the GMC to GM-related matters, and save the rest for a new forum under your own administration.

 


This doesn't make any sense as an argument as is completely unrelated to this debate - we're not trying to determine the usefulness of the OT section, we're making a polite request that it be preserved. By this point anyone who doesn't know of your dislike of OT is basically living under a rock, and it's your right to not care about it, I won't argue that. But if the GMC admins create an Off Topic forum with the stated purpose of off topic discussion, why is it a crime to use that sub forum in that way? You make it sound as though having a few users who mostly post in OT and leave the rest of the forums alone is some kind of plague much worse than spambots or your own much-despised "new users who don't read the manual". Almost every forum has an OT section and like it or not it's gone a long way to actually develop the community side of things around here. Enough people would like it preserved that it's a legitimate request. It's not like it affects you, so long as you choose to stay out of it.


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#89 icuurd12b42

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 04:29 AM

I say OPTION 1

or

OPTION 4:
Make a new forum with a new address and just disable adding new topics to this one... This way we can maintain existing topics that are still active without being forced to move them. This would allow replying and editing existing topics if people need to have answers on existing topics. Progressively we could ask for a topic be moved to the new forum.


I sure hope the new system would be smarter in managing new topics and have search before you post feature...
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#90 TheUltimate

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 04:50 AM

My gut feeling is Option 1.

 

Adding to what others said, lots of people have active game topics or discussions going and suddenly archiving/deleting them would be a pretty big blow. I've got game topics that have been active for several years now (and so do many other people) and I'd hate to see everything fragmented across two forums. Post count and rep mean little to me, but the content I've spent my time on means a lot more.

 

There is a lot of outdated and useless content on the forum and I see why it doesn't seem worth the effort to move. I'm no database expert but how hard is it to only move topics and users active in the last year or so and archive the rest?

 

Regardless of choice, my one request is that you give everybody enough warning to get their stuff in order before the change. Whether it's backing up PMs, editing game posts to direct people to new topics, or anything else, a few weeks' countdown to an exact day'll help make the transition less rough for people.

 

EDIT: And this is why I shouldn't AFK with a post half written. I didn't even know somebody posted before me. :P

 

Make a new forum with a new address and just disable adding new topics to this one... This way we can maintain existing topics that are still active without being forced to move them.

Interesting idea, though I feel it'd cause confusion and spread users thin across two forums. Might as well just copy everything over at that point.


Edited by TheUltimate, 06 January 2016 - 05:12 AM.

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#91 GameGeisha

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 04:58 AM

 

 

@GG: Oh please. Most of us OT users are active within Jams, other projects, Game Design forum, and elsewhere. Just because we don't generally hang out in Advanced Programming doesn't mean we don't make a contribution to this forum. If I was only here to chat, I'd be somewhere else that isn't repeatedly threatened to be deleted :)

 
I never asked you or anyone from the Off-Topic crowd to stop posting on the GMC. I asked you and the Off-Topic crowd to limit your posting on the GMC to GM-related matters, and save the rest for a new forum under your own administration.

 


This doesn't make any sense as an argument as is completely unrelated to this debate - we're not trying to determine the usefulness of the OT section, we're making a polite request that it be preserved. By this point anyone who doesn't know of your dislike of OT is basically living under a rock, and it's your right to not care about it, I won't argue that. But if the GMC admins create an Off Topic forum with the stated purpose of off topic discussion, why is it a crime to use that sub forum in that way? You make it sound as though having a few users who mostly post in OT and leave the rest of the forums alone is some kind of plague much worse than spambots or your own much-despised "new users who don't read the manual". Almost every forum has an OT section and like it or not it's gone a long way to actually develop the community side of things around here. Enough people would like it preserved that it's a legitimate request. It's not like it affects you, so long as you choose to stay out of it.

 

 

The argument regarding whether to keep or kick the Off-Topic section is very much related to this debate. In fact, it was one of your kind who brought it in, not me:

 

I agree with Yellow and Monkey. Option 3 seems best.

Just archive the current forum, create a new one on a different URL...

 

also:

No off-topic section please (see quote in signature)

 

I smell a distaste for the Off-Topic section in forum admins, not through my own subjectivity, but through their actions:

 

  • Fairly early in Off-Topic's lifetime, posts made there were excluded from a member's post counts. It's almost like they think posts there are statistically and qualitatively inferior than others.
  • Ever since Playtech took over, the Off-Topic section has been completely hidden from guests. It's almost like they did it so that nobody new would think about joining for the Off-Topic section.
  • Among current and former active members who have received repeated warnings, many have near exclusive posting presence in Off-Topic. It's almost like having the section there encourages people to not behave themselves.
  • Among current and former moderators, a number of them have tweeted about Off-Topic being spammy or deserving closure (example 1/example 2). It's almost like Off-Topic isn't part of their real vision to start with, just a temporary compromise.

 

With the entire forum being rebooted, they may decide put that distaste into action. It has happened before a decade ago, and it could again --- especially under Playtech's watch.

 

GameGeisha


Edited by GameGeisha, 06 January 2016 - 05:00 AM.

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#92 Juju

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 05:25 AM

A huge amount of old content, even stuff from GM6, are still absolutely usable with a little bit of work. Getting rid of those is a disservice to not only the current community and its continued development but also the thousands of hours spent on creating so many ingenious solutions. Trying to work out what is and isn't relevant in a reasonable time frame is always going to be unsatisfactory. In good faith, the whole forum has to be archived.

 

Removing the ability to reply to a particular thread is of little concern - if a user wants to get further information or help on a particular legacy solution then they can just make a new topic on the new forum. Migrating topics (such as finished games) over to the new forum may be time-consuming and should be done on a per-case basis. Perhaps an order of precedence is suitable with larger, more recent topics being first on the to-do list?


Edited by Juju, 06 January 2016 - 05:46 AM.

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#93 Ninety

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 05:33 AM

The argument regarding whether to keep or kick the Off-Topic section is very much related to this debate. In fact, it was one of your kind who brought it in, not me:

"One of my kind"? Sorry, but this made me laugh.
 

I smell a distaste for the Off-Topic section in forum admins, not through my own subjectivity, but through their actions:
<snip>
With the entire forum being rebooted, they may decide put that distaste into action. It has happened before a decade ago, and it could again --- especially under Playtech's watch.

 

Oh I'm well aware it's not looked upon favourably by (some) admins, and I don't like that either. But they're not posting about that here so much, so I'm not replying to them.

 

It's pretty disheartening to see OT users looked down upon so much, no matter their contribution to the rest of the forum, simply because they're not "mature enough" for the high standards of more advanced users.

 

Also, the repeated references to it being "spammy" (including Noc's tweet you cited) is often likely in reference to it being full of actual spambots, which is a different thing. Besides, how can you complain about the "spamminess" of Off Topic, when you know full well just how terrible Programming Q&A gets?

 

The "spamminess" stays on OT. You don't have to look at it. What is the issue here.


Edited by Ninety, 06 January 2016 - 05:36 AM.

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#94 mediapire

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 06:24 AM

A huge amount of old content, even stuff from GM6, are still absolutely usable with a little bit of work. Getting rid of those is a disservice to not only the current community and its continued development but also the thousands of hours spent on creating so many ingenious solutions. Trying to work out what is and isn't relevant in a reasonable time frame is always going to be unsatisfactory. In good faith, the whole forum has to be archived.

 

Removing the ability to reply to a particular thread is of little concern - if a user wants to get further information or help on a particular legacy solution then they can just make a new topic on the new forum. Migrating topics (such as finished games) over to the new forum may be time-consuming and should be done on a per-case basis. Perhaps an order of precedence is suitable with larger, more recent topics being first on the to-do list?

I have to agree here. There is thousands of tutorials and self help questions that'd be a shame to loose them completely.


Is there any chance of keeping both for awhile? Maybe making this board read only and moving on to a new fresh board? That would reduce the need for maintaining this current forum and allowing us to move on to new software.


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#95 cookieboy

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 07:00 AM

I'd rather we just spray down this whole forum with pesticides and set fire to it. It'd clean out the old posts that nobody will use ever. The only scripts I've ever found here that I actually carried forward was a 2d-3d point conversion framework and a thread on alpha multiplication. While both are very helpful topics, I think this forum needs cleansing There are far too many non-GMC topics and users.


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#96 icuurd12b42

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 07:07 AM

I'd rather we just spray down this whole forum with pesticides and set fire to it. It'd clean out the old posts that nobody will use ever. The only scripts I've ever found here that I actually carried forward was a 2d-3d point conversion framework and a thread on alpha multiplication. While both are very helpful topics, I think this forum needs cleansing There are far too many non-GMC topics and users.


Nah, I'm still referencing stuff from 8 years back when appropriate. Abandon house is the better option than setting fire to it. the squatters can find it useful.

Edited by icuurd12b42, 06 January 2016 - 07:07 AM.

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#97 cookieboy

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 07:11 AM

 

I'd rather we just spray down this whole forum with pesticides and set fire to it. It'd clean out the old posts that nobody will use ever. The only scripts I've ever found here that I actually carried forward was a 2d-3d point conversion framework and a thread on alpha multiplication. While both are very helpful topics, I think this forum needs cleansing There are far too many non-GMC topics and users.


Nah, I'm still referencing stuff from 8 years back when appropriate. Abandon house is the better option than setting fire to it. the squatters can find it useful.

 

This is a good point. I guess that is my vote too then. Not like it is up to us. Much like most vote related organizations.


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#98 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 09:32 AM

IF we started fresh, you would have to remake accounts as we wouldn't be importing the old DB at all - although I do take your point about folk picking your username.

 

Off Topic: Personally, I'm a fan of it. Not that I read it, but I think it keeps silly topics out of the actual GM forums.I understand that folk make friends on here and want to talk about other things, and not letting them will probably drive them away to somewhere else. On top of that, I think it's actually more work for mods who would continually have to shut down random topics. So I'm okay with it - other mods not so much. But it's definitely not decided one way or the other yet

 

 


A huge amount of old content, even stuff from GM6, are still absolutely usable with a little bit of work.

I have an issue with this kind of thing. Yes, it might work if you know what your doing - hell, I could take stuff from earlier and rework it into anything. But if your not that experienced with GM, this stuff is utterly confusing as your trying hard to get something working - and it says there! Right in front of you that this should work, but it doesn't. They don't have the knowledge required to know which parts need work and which don't. This is my biggest issue with the historical stuff, for the most part, its vastly outdated.

 

Can't do that Option 4. We're not maintaining 2 sets of forums.

 

All forums/topics would be visible to guests.

 

 

Again personally..... the more I read, the more I'm coming down in favour of option 3, but there is certainly nothing yet decided - lots of folk both in the GMC and in the office have strong opinions on this.  

 

Also be aware, that no matter what we do, the forums will be down for some time - brace yourselves. And this will be happening sooner rather than later.


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#99 GameDevDan

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 09:47 AM

 

I want a serious word with members who defend option 1 on the basis of sentimental values, perceived "community history" or personal interactions.

The archive proposed under option 2 and 3 are likely publicly accessible archives. There is no loss of history or archival value there, if you feel nostalgic then go in there at your leisure. Furthermore, if they put the archive on a yoyogames.com domain as they should, a quick search with the site:*.yoyogames.com filter would still identify content in both the archived and new GMC.

 

Losing the ability to post on old content is a trivial loss. Just look at what happens when timestamp-blind novices complain about errors and broken links on decade-old resources, they seldom get any real help from the likely inactive original poster or any currently active posters. If a piece of content has continuing relevance, it will resist the cull by being re-posted or re-linked on the new GMC.

 

In particular, I want to address the YYGF crowd ruing over loss of personal history and self-relevance. GMC stands for GameMaker Community, look at your own posts and see how well they reflect their identity as GMC posts. Are any of the forum games, off-topic discussion or jokes amongst yourselves of real relevance to the wider realm of the GameMaker development platform, its learners and its developers?

 
And before you say I'm being self-centered, remember that I am in the top 50 list for both post count and reputation points. Rebooting the forum is a greater loss of personal track history for me than for most of you. But I choose it because it has higher utilitarian value.

 

Being ready to sacrifice localized sentiments in favour of greater utility for GM as a whole is what the C should mean in GMC.

 

GameGeisha

 

This isn't about self-relevance. It's about a decent connection to information we need to keep. There are game topics here that have been active for years and are still active. Slicing the topic in half and re-opening it on a new forum will be a UX nightmare for people who want to reference older posts in the topic. This goes for people asking for help and searching for old tutorials too. YoYo have been historically bad at good UX, both in software and website terms. From my point of view the GMC as it currently stands is one of their major successes!

 

Also what's the point in the high and mighty attitude with which you went into this rant? You want a serious word, you say YYGFers contribute little to the forum, and what you say counts more because you have lots of posts and reputation? Baloney. You can make whatever points you have about the forum without trying to belittle other members' contributions in the process. I've got lots of posts, high rep and worked at YYG for 20 months, so I know a thing or two. That doesn't mean I have less respect for everyone else's opinion.

 

 

 

im still waiting for a warning point to be removed, been well over a year, and over 3 months since speaking to a mod, whom said 'yeah...i think its been long enough, we can do that..'

 

 

Granted.

 

My gut feeling is Option 1.

 

Adding to what others said, lots of people have active game topics or discussions going and suddenly archiving/deleting them would be a pretty big blow. I've got game topics that have been active for several years now (and so do many other people) and I'd hate to see everything fragmented across two forums. Post count and rep mean little to me, but the content I've spent my time on means a lot more.

 

This, as said earlier in the post, the UX issue that presents itself is important. Unless new user experience is more important than loyal customer experience :whistle:


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#100 ShaunS

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:17 AM

This isn't about self-relevance. It's about a decent connection to information we need to keep. There are game topics here that have been active for years and are still active. Slicing the topic in half and re-opening it on a new forum will be a UX nightmare for people who want to reference older posts in the topic. This goes for people asking for help and searching for old tutorials too. YoYo have been historically bad at good UX, both in software and website terms. From my point of view the GMC as it currently stands is one of their major successes!

Could you link me to some of these topics that you feel would be badly affected? I can see the concept you're describing in principle but it's hard to weigh the issue without context.

 

In terms of tutorial searching are you talking about users using the forum search functionality to look for old content? Wouldn't old users know that content no longer existed in the new space (And would therefore know where to look for it) and new users not have old content to look for in the first place?


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Community Manager for YoYo Games. Sometimes known to make video games. Streams nonsense at twitch.tv/shaunjsTweets nonsense at @shaunspalding.

 

-S