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GMC "Fresh Start"? - Your feedback wanted


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#1 ShaunS

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 04:45 PM

Hello everyone!

 

Soon we're planning on upgrading the outdated software and underlying structure of the GMC servers for a number of beneficial reasons not the least of which is increased security. After this is done the forum software will be reinstated and this has presented us with a few interesting options & opportunities concerning the future of the GMC.

 

Over time the GMC has grown and grown and has reached a point where despite all the awesome content here, we feel it is carrying around a lot of dead weight in terms of inactive user accounts, outdated content and underused boards, sub-boards, sub-sub-boards and so on. There is misinformation everywhere in the forms of old threads an even very old content directly from YYG employees that contradicts our current ideas and methodologies. This information is damaging in many ways and unfortunately is blended in with lots of very valuable and important information that makes it difficult to deal with.

 

Ultimately the GMC as it stands now has become rather unwieldy in many ways and is in need of a clear out and restructure of some capacity. That's why we're considering using this as an opportunity to start the GMC anew, empty and fresh. We are exploring options for new forum software and a new and improved forum board structure. We're hoping this would give us an opportunity to archive off old and outdated content that we can make very distinct from content that is relevant to our latest versions and software

 

Now obviously there's a lot of important and useful content here, especially in terms of tutorials, scripts and general GM info. If we were to start fresh we would be looking to preserve this content. We could either carry over specific content into the 'new' forum or we could simply archive all of our old content into a legacy version of the forum that could still be accessed.

 

Here are the main options we're currently considering:

 

1) We copy over all the existing content and carry on as normal. Possibly restructuring the forums in some capacity.

 

2) We start the GMC fresh but we carry over select forums of content that are important.  It's become clear to us that this option isn't particularly viable, or long term beneficial.

 

3) We start completely fresh, and archive off our old forum content so that it remains accessible in a legacy read-only form.

 

I understand this might be a pretty contentious move and we wouldn't want to just uproot everything you guys use here without speaking to you all about it properly first. On that note however, please, please do your best to keep this discussion constructive and on topic <3.

 

-Shaun


Edited by ShaunS, 07 January 2016 - 03:28 PM.
More clarity on our intentions and reasoning, and an update to what we're currently considering.

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#2 RujiK

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 04:51 PM

If you were a ship captain anything but number one would lead to mutiny!

 

I don't see how starting "Fresh" would help. It's not like the old stuff gets in the way...


Edited by RujiK, 05 January 2016 - 04:54 PM.

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#3 faissialoo

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 04:52 PM

Pick option 1, maybe 3 (but 3 kinda defeats the point because you're still using the same amount of the storage and the only thing that changes is server load), but definitely not 2, we can't have another YoyoGames Forums situation, all those broken links and lost resources man, it's too much


Edited by faissialoo, 05 January 2016 - 04:53 PM.

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#4 kupo15

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 04:58 PM

Thanks for starting this thread!

 

If you do option 2 or 3 will all old topics still be able to be viewed via a google search? There are a lot of random posts asking questions that I found helpful and would like to still have access to.

 

What will happen to the alpha and beta channel threads? I currently have a nice ongoing thread in there and I would really want to have that completely preserved in the new forum so I everyone (including myself) can see the full development history


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#5 ShaunS

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 05:03 PM

Thanks for starting this thread!

 

If you do option 2 or 3 will all old topics still be able to be viewed via a google search? There are a lot of random posts asking questions that I found helpful and would like to still have access to.

 

What will happen to the alpha and beta channel threads? I currently have a nice ongoing thread in there and I would really want to have that completely preserved in the new forum so I everyone (including myself) can see the full development history

That's the very reason we'd want to keep that content around.

 

In theory with option 3 you'd still see the full history even if in two parts. But that sort of disconnect would be a consequence of this, yeah.

 

-S


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#6 rmanthorp

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 05:03 PM

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BURN IT ALL - no but really I'm strong for option 2 OR a fresh start with all the old stuff kept in a 'legacy forum'


Edited by rmanthorp, 05 January 2016 - 05:25 PM.

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#7 ShaunS

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 05:06 PM

If you were a ship captain anything but number one would lead to mutiny!

 

I don't see how starting "Fresh" would help. It's not like the old stuff gets in the way...

The forum structure as is is incredibly complex and convuluted. We have separate rules threads for each individual board and they are increasingly difficult to follow and moderate for. We have areas that are semi obsolete, we have content that is hugely out of time sync with other content in the same places, it's all just very messy in here! Restructuring and clearing up what we have and improving it for the better is a gargantuan task due to how the forum has evolved, unless we were to start again.


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#8 Alice

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 05:07 PM

I think it's pretty clear what option I'd pick!!11!11oneoneone <--

Edited by Alice, 05 January 2016 - 05:08 PM.

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#9 chance

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 05:09 PM

2)  We start the GMC fresh but we carry over select, important content from the forum such as tutorials and so on.


Who decides what is "important content" ?

 

Either way, I volunteer to moderate the new So On Forum.


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#10 RujiK

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 05:09 PM

@ShaunS

I have no problem with completely rearranging the forum and moving posts all over the place, but deleting CONTENT is too scary for me. (Changing threads/sub threads is fine)


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#11 GameDevDan

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 05:09 PM

1) We copy over all the existing content and carry on as normal.


Sounds good to me.

2) We start the GMC fresh but we carry over select, important content from the forum such as tutorials and so on.


Start afresh as in what? Delete all users and have us sign up again? How will that affect the content carried over, and who decides which content we keep? Sounds like a bad option to me.

3) We start completely fresh, and archive off our old forum content so that it remains accessible in a legacy read-only form.


People like their content. People like being able to watch for new interactions on their old game topics, tutorials, GMC Jam topics etc. etc. If we start completely afresh we lose our connection to that old content. This option doesn't sound too good either.

I think we should just do #1. If there are underused forums: Merge or burn them. Same goes for inactive users (if there's a way of doing that without touching active accounts).
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#12 NAL

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 05:14 PM

1 would be ideal to me, I could understand 2 if the "non-important" stuff was kept.

Would be sad to see over a decade of everyone's (mine included) contributions to the GMC just be swept aside as "you're old now". :(

One big con with option 3: Anyone landing on the forum from Googling their GM issues will probably land on the locked legacy copy and then be stuck with no ability to add to the discussion.

Edited by NAL, 05 January 2016 - 05:21 PM.

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#13 YellowAfterlife

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 05:19 PM

If option 3 is picked, I'd suggest to archive the current forums on the current URL (or have a sufficiently smart redirect) to avoid creating endless broken links (see what migrating sandbox from yoyogames.com to sandbox.yoyogames.com did).

I don't see how option 2 could be viable -- who would be looking through thousands of topics to decide, which of them are important? hopefully not me
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#14 roa

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 05:32 PM

Put it into archive state and begin afresh.

 

This is what game maker and the forum needs. Only the newest content and most needed content that is relevant would survive as people would back up and carry over their own stuff as needed. This would also push the dreaded problems with legacy users trying to necro old versions. Anything forgotten would still be around, but largely be disregarded by the active community allowing users to see what is in demand and what is not so we can build for the future. Carry over accounts would be great though. I mean, for the obviously active users.

 

YoYo and gamemaker had a face lift, I think the forums deserve one too.


Edited by roa, 05 January 2016 - 05:33 PM.

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#15 GameDevDan

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 05:32 PM

From an ex-staff point of view, I would also say this:

 

When attending floor shows like GIS and GDC, one thing that stood out for a lot of people was the community. A lot of people said that what they found good about GameMaker, when compared to other software, was the ability to type in "how do I do X in GameMaker" and get a decent result. If the user has trouble with the tutorial they find, they then have the option of commenting in the topic to alert the OP, or any other passing member, and get helpful feedback from them. If the original poster's connection to the topic is lost or the topic is locked, as may be the case in option 2 or 3, this may result in a worse experience for new users trying to find help.


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#16 ShaunS

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 05:32 PM

 

2)  We start the GMC fresh but we carry over select, important content from the forum such as tutorials and so on.


Who decides what is "important content" ?

 

Either way, I volunteer to moderate the new So On Forum.

 

A very good question, I'm personally of the stance that if we try this approach it will be very difficult to do so in a way that works for everyone, and archiving everything would be better. But carrying over select content allows us to keep that content active.


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#17 Rusty

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 05:46 PM

Dammit Shaun, I was just starting to recover from the last "fresh start" YYG decided to give me.

I don't trust YYG with forum updates, you guys tend to be a shady as you possibly can be about it all. I mean, I'm surprised you actually thought to ask us this time, rather than just waiting for the next security breach and yelling "surprise" when we log back in to a completely different website (which I'm sort of convinced is what is going to happen anyway).

So for whatever it's worth, I choose one. Not because I really enjoy the sound of one, but because the ugly, default IP.Board theme I have to stare at every time I log onto here now is a constant reminder of YYG's history of terrible site management.
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#18 ShaunS

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 06:02 PM

Dammit Shaun, I was just starting to recover from the last "fresh start" YYG decided to give me.

I don't trust YYG with forum updates, you guys tend to be a shady as you possibly can be about it all. I mean, I'm surprised you actually thought to ask us this time, rather than just waiting for the next security breach and yelling "surprise" when we log back in to a completely different website (which I'm sort of convinced is what is going to happen anyway).

So for whatever it's worth, I choose one. Not because I really enjoy the sound of one, but because the ugly, default IP.Board theme I have to stare at every time I log onto here now is a constant reminder of YYG's history of terrible site management.

I'm still relatively new to this company, so I'm less experienced with what might have happened in the past. But please try to see what I have described as what I have described. This is not a sinister plot to mess you all around for no reason. This is a desire to improve something that seems held together through patches into something that is solid, but recognizing that in order to do that we risk doing a lot of damage, so we want to measure the pros and cons, and get feelings and feedback from everyone before we do anything rash.

 

People have already raised a lot of things I hadn't thought of personally which is what I want to see. Not doing this sort of thing might be what caused issues in the past.


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#19 Floofpaws

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 06:17 PM

2

Anything less important that is lost can be quickly redone or made up for, and, having done a similar thing with projects when they got too messy, I think it's totally worth it if the people running the place can run it easier.
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#20 Rusty

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 06:17 PM

I'm still relatively new to this company, so I'm less experienced with what might have happened in the past. But please try to see what I have described as what I have described. This is not a sinister plot to mess you all around for no reason. This is a desire to improve something that seems held together through patches into something that is solid, but recognizing that in order to do that we risk doing a lot of damage, so we want to measure the pros and cons, and get feelings and feedback from everyone before we do anything rash.
 
People have already raised a lot of things I hadn't thought of personally which is what I want to see. Not doing this sort of thing might be what caused issues in the past.

YYG originally used IP.Board as I'm assuming they thought it was a solid program. The reality of the situation is that there simply isn't a perfect software and with the new backbone to the forums, there will come with it a new set of exploits for hackers to get in with. We'll still get hacked, we'll still have to change our passwords every couple of months and we'll have lost more in the transition than the hackers could have possibly taken from us.

While I'm not blaming you personally for YYG's abysmal history with handling updates to the GMC, I simply don't trust YYG (the company whom you work for) to tell me the grass is greener on the other side. Option two is simply a fairytale by fairytale standards, nobody is going to shell out the manpower to comb through the forums and pick out important content, at least not in a way that the community can be happy with.

What this boils down to is YYG asking us if we'd like to be YYGF'd, because that's probably what's going to happen anyway.
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#21 RekNepZ

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 06:20 PM

I have to agree with Dan. 2 or 3 would be fun, restarting post counts and everything, but it would loose a lot of this place's history. I think Rusty makes a good point as well. If you guys do decide to do 2, I'd suggest moving entire boards rather than sifting through thousands of topics.


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#22 faissialoo

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 06:24 PM

 

What this boils down to is YYG asking us if we'd like to be YYGF'd, because that's probably what's going to happen anyway.

 

^This^

We can't let it happen again, it's exactly the same situation we're in here.


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#23 Alice

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 06:25 PM

Well, whatever you decide on, don't even try to harm our beloved GMC Jam topics! :ninja:

(nor Secret Santa topics, either!)

Edited by Alice, 05 January 2016 - 06:42 PM.

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#24 ShaunS

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 06:40 PM

 

 

What this boils down to is YYG asking us if we'd like to be YYGF'd, because that's probably what's going to happen anyway.

 

^This^

We can't let it happen again, it's exactly the same situation we're in here.

 

What do you mean by this?


I have to agree with Dan. 2 or 3 would be fun, restarting post counts and everything, but it would loose a lot of this place's history. I think Rusty makes a good point as well. If you guys do decide to do 2, I'd suggest moving entire boards rather than sifting through thousands of topics.

That's probably the approach that would be taken.


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#25 Otyugra

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 06:51 PM

I like the idea of ONE with conditions:

  • Users are carried over unless they haven't logged in for 2 years or longer. (The cut off point can change, that isn't the important part)
  • The new forum isn't radically different from the current one. (I personally really love the dark theme for this forum)
  • Any sub forums (or sub sub forums) that majority of people all agree don't need to be carried over, don't get carried over.

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#26 faissialoo

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 07:24 PM

What this boils down to is YYG asking us if we'd like to be YYGF'd, because that's probably what's going to happen anyway.

^This^
We can't let it happen again, it's exactly the same situation we're in here.

What do you mean by this?

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We lost everything except what some people had managed to archive before the site was destroyed forever

Edited by faissialoo, 05 January 2016 - 07:25 PM.

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#27 Mercerenies

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 08:19 PM

Basically what faiss and Rusty have said. I've already sat through one YYG forum nuking. I'm not about to sit through another. Option One all the way. Possibly with Otyugra's suggestion of deleting inactive users, but that seems unfeasible with the current system.

But in addition to all the forum history over in the sections I frequent (Jams, forum games, and OT), there are also a lot of old games. I have at least three or four finished projects in the Finished Games section that haven't been released anywhere else. Kill the GMC's topics and those games are gone forever. Seriously, I don't think I'm the only one who would have trouble finding the source code for projects finished ten years ago on a different computer.
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#28 Karurosu

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 08:23 PM

Option 1 please, either way we would be losing a lot of content.
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#29 TsukaYuriko

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 08:27 PM

I'd say option 1, keep everything. So many people have put in so much effort to write so much stuff, whether it's questions, tutorials, engines, discussions... it would be a shame to let it all go to waste.


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#30 2Create

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 08:31 PM

Option one, please. Getting rid of YYGF cost us a bunch of active members, I believe, and restarting the GMC will do the same thing. I can totally understand wanting to archive some stuff as well, but I would like to keep all of The Community and Games And Social around. Please don't archive all that. It would be a real shame.


Edited by 2Create, 05 January 2016 - 08:46 PM.

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#31 ShaunS

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 08:41 PM

Addressing the last few posts, if the content was made read only then it wouldn't be lost. It just couldn't be added to anymore, and there's no reason those same threads couldn't be remade if the conversation needed to continue. The effort that went into making the content wouldn't be wasted as it would still be accessible.


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#32 Nocturne

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 08:43 PM

If we do option two it wouldn't be selected topics, but selected boards. Principally the Tutorials forums, and probably little else...

 

Personally, I'm all for option 3. The old forum remains as an archive which can still be browsed while new streamlined forums are created for use by everyone. Oh, and Rusty, you're being waaaaaaaay to dramatic about this and the YYGF stuff. It wasn't quite as black and sinister as you paint it, and in fact everything that was possible to make the YYGF people feel at home here was done - everyone knew that it was going to happen sooner or later anyway, so it shouldn't have been a surprise that YYG took the initiative after a serious hack. A couple of coincidences don't make a conspiracy. ;)

 

Also note that the NEW forums will actually be far more secure than anything previously, simply because YYG now have the backing of a major player - ie: Playtech - who will be able to install and maintain better security measures right from the start. This is something that is impossible with the current forum setup... and I would think that a company which specializes in gambling apps would know a thing or two about security (if they didn't they wouldn't be as big as they are, would they?). I'm sure that no matter what, there will still be attempted hacks (such is the way of the internet) but these should be fewer and easier to deal with on a new, fresh forum.


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#33 ShaunS

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 08:47 PM

Just wanted to point out that although I mentioned 3 options we were considering at the start of this thread, it's becoming clear that there are many nuances to this issue that need to be thought deeply about. It is not by any means a given that we will do one of these things exactly as it is written, it was just something that we're discussing and I wanted to get it in front of you all as soon as possible.

 

Chances are good I'll be returning with more threads like this to continue discussing this forum and how to make it better for everyone.

<3


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#34 Alice

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 08:55 PM

Um, I'm just wondering, what would be the difference between the OLD forum and the NEW forum? I mean, in terms of the database setup, since as far as I know it's the database contents that decides which posts are out there etc. Perhaps it's just my barely trained eye, but I see no reason why the contents would be so drastically different that they couldn't be copied with some well-written queries. Especially if it's update from one IPB version to another; they might have introduced some changes, but they shouldn't be too radical, would they? O.o"

Also, how about users? Would they need to make new accounts? Would they not be able to log in to the archived GMC? If they wouldn't, that would mean finding one's own content would be harder (which I was doing a few times, e.g. when I want to refer to some JSON-related suggestion topic of mine). Also, the user wouldn't be able to edit their own post and copy-paste it (which I sometimes did when e.g. posting reviews or Secret Santa topics). The read-only archive would lack some features that might not be super-essential, but make browsing old stuff way easier.
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#35 faissialoo

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 08:56 PM

and I would think that a company which specializes in gambling apps would know a thing or two about security (if they didn't they wouldn't be as big as they are, would they?). I'm sure that no matter what, there will still be attempted hacks (such is the way of the internet) but these should be fewer and easier to deal with on a new, fresh forum.

You'd be surprised Nocturne...
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#36 Forester

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 08:59 PM

All of Alices replies are simply the best replies.

I think 3 would be a good plan if we don't 'Pick!!11!!111<oneoneone'
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#37 Overloaded

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 09:08 PM

Who cares? We need GMS2 already!
 
Uuuum yeah, basically what GameDevDan said. To be honest, personally, I wouldn't like option 3. I can see the pros, but I'm against it. I'm leaning towards option 1, but under Otyugra's conditions. That'd be ideal, I think.


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#38 kupo15

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 09:12 PM

Addressing the last few posts, if the content was made read only then it wouldn't be lost. It just couldn't be added to anymore, and there's no reason those same threads couldn't be remade if the conversation needed to continue. The effort that went into making the content wouldn't be wasted as it would still be accessible.

 

That sounds fine to me, you aren't supposed to necrobump anyway so people would just make new threads of old ones anyway and the old conversations will still be there to be searched for. As I mentioned before I think deep thought about the WIP and Completed games sections should be cared for as well...I didn't like the sound of my development thread being split up into two different places. If you are to go with keeping important threads I think moving all WIP threads within a certain active threshold should be considered important 


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#39 Fishman1175

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 09:13 PM

I think the nature of game maker has drastically changed over the years, so I'm leaning towards option 3. It would be an optimization of time for a lot of users i. e. the most likely relevant information will be on the new forum. However, for specific issues the old forum's goldmine of user content will be accessible.
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#40 JML

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 09:24 PM

what every you do keep the old programmers q&a somewhere, most of the questions i have needed answers to have been found by lurking.

 

or failing that why not compile an all-in-1 reference with a list of stuff people want to do and links to code on how to do it that uses logical keywords so its easy to search.

 

be nice to have something like that laying around, both for reference and to point people at when they have a question so as to clean up an prevent constant rehashing of the same questions.


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#41 chance

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 09:48 PM

Also note that the NEW forums will actually be far more secure than anything previously, simply because YYG now have the backing of a major player - ie: Playtech - who will be able to install and maintain better security measures right from the start.

 

So the upgrade isn't just newer IP.B software?   But rather a complete replacement with Playtech software?


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#42 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 09:49 PM

From an ex-staff point of view, I would also say this:

 

When attending floor shows like GIS and GDC, one thing that stood out for a lot of people was the community. A lot of people said that what they found good about GameMaker, when compared to other software, was the ability to type in "how do I do X in GameMaker" and get a decent result. If the user has trouble with the tutorial they find, they then have the option of commenting in the topic to alert the OP, or any other passing member, and get helpful feedback from them. If the original poster's connection to the topic is lost or the topic is locked, as may be the case in option 2 or 3, this may result in a worse experience for new users trying to find help.

This is honestly the only reason I can use GM today.
If we nuke the forum entirely, too much stuff that's not considered "important" to staff will get removed.

Sure there are duplicate topics and what not, but the forum is like a compendium of knowledge on how to use the software in ways that aren't covered by the manual.

 

I have a feeling the staff aren't too keen on option 1 though. I'm for it. Also for Option 3 if 1 is too self defeating for YoYo(keep the junk on the new system).

But for the love of all you may consider holy, please don't kill this incarnation of the GMC entirely. Remember, YoYo, this forum was there for you when the YYGF went down. Don't take her out back and shoot her dead. Tie her to a tree where people can only look at her.


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#43 matheus.reis

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 10:01 PM

If I had to choose, I'd choose 1.

 

Don't wanna speculate or something, but wouldn't it be the case (to create a new forum, I mean) if the new forum was used specifically for new GM versions (considering it's going to get a structure revamp) and leaving this one for legacy versions? I'd be all for it. There are lots of things I find in the here which are PRETTY old (which don't work with Studio or links are all broken).


Edited by matheus.reis, 05 January 2016 - 10:06 PM.

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#44 rui.rosario

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 10:05 PM

In my opinion, option 3.

 

As to why? Let's break it down by options:

 

1) Having all the content is what caused the possibility of starting anew in the first place, correct? So why upgrade everything if you're going to keep the problem anyway? Sure, it is extremely inconvenient for people to loose all their content or have it in a special old place, but from where I stand (and trust me, I love a lot of the content here, I don't want it to disappear) this would just be sweeping the old problematic dust underneath a fancier rug. It would eventually blow up in the face of the GMC users and probably a lot more on the face of the administrators.

 

2) This option is an obvious no-go. This would mean having someone deciding what "good" content is. And while there are things we can generally define as "bad" content as a community (duplicate topics and I'm sure everyone remembers quite some other types of post they consider "bad"), there is no way we can define what is "good" to keep. First of all, everyone will have an instinct of choosing what they created, what they thought of as useful and such as "good to keep". However, everyone is different. What helped someone may be seen as "bad content" to someone else. This would either mean a war bursting out here on the GMC for what "good" content was or just going with option 1 and keeping everything.

 

3) This one for me is the best option. It prevents the problem of the first option, as effectively what caused the problem in the first place would be completely detached from the new, upgraded version of the GMC. It would also prevent an all out war from breaking out in the community. However, it has a lot of disadvantages as well, like people being led to the archived version of topics and not knowing about the new ones. The hardware requirements for both the archived and the new version of the GMC. And I'm someone someone else can come up with a lot more (dead links, etc). So I also have my two cents about possible options:

 

a) Don't change the domain. Keep this domain and instead put the new version of the GMC in a new domain. This would prevent all dead links.

 

b) Put a warning across every page (or maybe a popup at page entrance) that warned the current version of the GMC was the archived version, stating maybe a few of the reasons that lead to the change but most of all where the new version of the forums were located.

 

c) Emailing all members about the change a pre-defined number of days before it happened, so everyone could have time to backup anything if they don't trust the archiving process.

 

d) Allowing for a voting/request system to occur in the archived forum's content, so requested and relevant topics could be transitioned to the new version. The administrator responsible for the transition could take that opportunity to transition only the relevant content in the thread (the questions and useful answers, removing the overall non-relevant comments, the derails and everything else. Maybe the voting/request system could expand to the omitted posts so wrongfully rejected posts could be transitioned as well).

 

e) Imposing a resource restriction on the archived forum, so that the archived forum wouldn't hinder the new forum (the best would be separate hardware, but even the original proposition is kind of a double-edged knife, separate hardware would increase costs).

 

f) Take the transition opportunity to release GM:S 2.0


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#45 Nocturne

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 10:05 PM

 

Also note that the NEW forums will actually be far more secure than anything previously, simply because YYG now have the backing of a major player - ie: Playtech - who will be able to install and maintain better security measures right from the start.

 

So the upgrade isn't just newer IP.B software?   But rather a complete replacement with Playtech software?

 

 

It's a two part thing... The forum software (if we do a fresh forum) doesn't have to be IPB, so we can use any software that we consider appropriate. On top of that, Playtech will be offering technical and security support.


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#46 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 10:12 PM

So the upgrade isn't just newer IP.B software?   But rather a complete replacement with Playtech software?

Sorry, a little miss-understanding here.  We are installing and maintaining the software as before, but we're getting lots of security advice from Playtech experts. They will also do testing on sites for us. 

 

IF we keep everything, we have to stay with IP.Board a the DB will be automatically upgraded. If we do option 3, we have a free choice - but IP.B is still a good option. All public forum software has flaws, and all public forum software gets hacked. Its down to what you know, and it's feature set.

 

Below is my personal opinion

 

I'm personally a fan of option 3. It's possible to keep the google searching so you can find things, and we can probably hard wire some pages/links to the new forum. But I don't like all the historic content. 90% of it refers to old and outdated solutions. Even the tutorials would need thinned out to work fully with Studio. Going forward, it'll ALL be old soon enough....

What I'm interested in is WHY we should keep the old stuff. I get that many of the tutorials are good, so I'm okay with keeping them. But having them in a read-only state still keeps them. You don't have to be able to respond on that forum, there's nothing stopping you asking about it on the new one. Yes you can't just hit "reply" - so what?  As long as there's an easy link, they just have to follow it and post something. Not complicated.

But the old content is my biggest issue. Too many posts with stuff that doesn't matter, or answers to things that just aren't the way you should be doing things.  

 

So I'm a big fan of option 3.... I'd love a good clear out. Start again, Make it easer to find relevant stuff. Cut down on the billions of folders and sub-folders.

 

EDIT: Oh... and less rules, give the mods more flexibility in modding instead of a billion rules no one reads. (will probably do this anyway....)


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#47 xot

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 10:24 PM

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#48 Lukasmah

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 10:40 PM

Does this mean that some of the stuff will be completely removed, not just locked and archived?
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#49 GameGeisha

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 10:43 PM

My stance: Option 3, under the following conditions:

  • The archiving script must handle internal links properly. Either the archive uses the same URLs as the current GMC, or the link URLs get rewritten in the format used by the archive.
  • Both the archived and the new GMC must be on public yoyogames.com subdomains. This helps preserve searchability.
  • The new GMC must have a brand new yoyogames.com subdomain. This avoids future archival issues with the same permalink URL being associated with two different discussion topics.
  • Tutorial, example and extension authors may manually re-post them in the new GMC, after confirming its functionality in 1.4.1657/1.4.1690 (GMS) or 8.1.141 (8.1). The reboot should be used as a time to re-evaluate and update their offering.
  • A 2-week notice should be given before the reboot. This gives members ample time to make last-minute adjustments before the archive is set in stone.

 

People like their content. People like being able to watch for new interactions on their old game topics, tutorials, GMC Jam topics etc. etc. If we start completely afresh we lose our connection to that old content. This option doesn't sound too good either.


I think we should just do #1. If there are underused forums: Merge or burn them. Same goes for inactive users (if there's a way of doing that without touching active accounts).

 

 

Option one, please. Getting rid of YYGF cost us a bunch of active members, I believe, and restarting the GMC will do the same thing. I can totally understand wanting to archive some stuff as well, but I would like to keep all of The Community and Games And Social around. Please don't archive all that. It would be a real shame.

 

1 would be ideal to me, I could understand 2 if the "non-important" stuff was kept.

Would be sad to see over a decade of everyone's (mine included) contributions to the GMC just be swept aside as "you're old now". :(

One big con with option 3: Anyone landing on the forum from Googling their GM issues will probably land on the locked legacy copy and then be stuck with no ability to add to the discussion.

 

I want a serious word with members who defend option 1 on the basis of sentimental values, perceived "community history" or personal interactions.

The archive proposed under option 2 and 3 are likely publicly accessible archives. There is no loss of history or archival value there, if you feel nostalgic then go in there at your leisure. Furthermore, if they put the archive on a yoyogames.com domain as they should, a quick search with the site:*.yoyogames.com filter would still identify content in both the archived and new GMC.

 

Losing the ability to post on old content is a trivial loss. Just look at what happens when timestamp-blind novices complain about errors and broken links on decade-old resources, they seldom get any real help from the likely inactive original poster or any currently active posters. If a piece of content has continuing relevance, it will resist the cull by being re-posted or re-linked on the new GMC.

 

In particular, I want to address the YYGF crowd ruing over loss of personal history and self-relevance. GMC stands for GameMaker Community, look at your own posts and see how well they reflect their identity as GMC posts. Are any of the forum games, off-topic discussion or jokes amongst yourselves of real relevance to the wider realm of the GameMaker development platform, its learners and its developers?

 
And before you say I'm being self-centered, remember that I am in the top 50 list for both post count and reputation points. Rebooting the forum is a greater loss of personal track history for me than for most of you. But I choose it because it has higher utilitarian value.

 

Being ready to sacrifice localized sentiments in favour of greater utility for GM as a whole is what the C should mean in GMC.

 

GameGeisha


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#50 Alice

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 10:48 PM

Well, if only selected boards would be ported over to the new forum, I'd like at least GMC Jam and main Community Chat board to be ported over. Some of the potential troubles I see with the split are: reference breaking (links to GMC content would become obsolete if the archive wouldn't use the current GMC domain) and having two areas to search in instead of one (maybe there's google, but in some cases direct forum search/browsing might work better).

As for option 1 working only for IPB; actually, I think it should be perfectly doable. Tricky, maybe (depending on database structures), might come with a little inconveniencing (such as need to re-enter passwords, for example, if passwords are stored differently across different systems), but at least it's once-in-a-long-time thing and doesn't require some great performance (is just needs to be doable in a reasonable time frame.
(of course, I understand if you guys wouldn't feel like figuring out the way to convert the database properly)

While we're at that, I don't quite see the reason not to use option 1 if option 2 is possible, maybe except for cleaning the forums from some unnecessary and/or obsolete stuff, or cutting down the time to perform the migration. I mean, if you can figure out how to transfer some selected boards, you probably can apply that to all the other boards as well. ^^"

Edited by Alice, 05 January 2016 - 10:54 PM.

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