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Procedural Music A Viable Alternative?


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#1 Nocturne

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Posted 04 September 2015 - 07:40 PM

 
One of the hardest things for an independent developer to find when starting out is music. It's not difficult finding royalty free or Creative Commons licensed music for your games, but it is difficult finding music that has a decent quality and that "fits" your game. You can spend literally days searching through the public domain sites and never find anything that captures your attention and hope that you eventually find your diamond in the rough, or you can just give up and go hire someone (or just go visit Incompetech.com like everyone else).
 
However, before you decide, what if I told you there was another option? It’s called procedural generation, and you'd be surprised just how good music made this way can sound!

 

 

 


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#2 faissialoo

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Posted 04 September 2015 - 08:55 PM

All of the music in one of my games was procedurally generated lol, was way better than any music I could make.
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#3 Lotias

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 03:24 AM

Viable for what, exactly? While it may be an easy way to get an original soundtrack for free, it will never have the touch of music composed specifically for the situation - or even music composed for a public domain site, although public domain is usually poor quality.


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#4 faissialoo

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 09:04 AM

Viable for what, exactly? While it may be an easy way to get an original soundtrack for free, it will never have the touch of music composed specifically for the situation - or even music composed for a public domain site, although public domain is usually poor quality.

Well it can, generate a bunch of music and pick the ones that fit the situation
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#5 Ninety

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 10:41 AM

Hmm... I've done a fair bit of looking into procedural music, and usually you can pick it a mile away. There is some better quality stuff, but a lot of it is discordant and lacks a human touch.


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#6 Nocturne

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 10:51 AM

Guys, the articles asks if it is viable, and if you read the conclusion, I do say that I feel it's really only valid in very specific circumstances... :thumbsup:


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#7 chance

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 12:19 PM

Guys, the articles asks if it is viable, and if you read the conclusion, I do say that I feel it's really only valid in very specific circumstances... :thumbsup:

 

I think that's what people are discussing here -- not criticizing the article.  I think your article is balanced.  And that's a nice cross-section of tools you provided.

 

I don't care for much procedurally generated game music myself -- but maybe that's because I haven't heard good examples of it.  Certainly, some is better than others.  I suppose it's viable for casual arcade games.    But I don't feel it works well for more serious or moody atmospheric games.

 

I will say, however, that the latest tools give composers much more control over the outcome.  So while it's still procedural, it allows composers to make creative choices about the kind of procedural processes -- such as the level of randomness, fractal characteristics, choice of minor-scale substitutions, etc.

 

Seems like the trend in procedural music is moving away from the early pseudo-random tinkles.   It's moving back toward needing more composer skill.  And the same skill that allows composers to create good traditional music, can help create good procedural music.


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#8 Yal

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 03:38 PM

From my experences, Abundant Music really is the best of the generators. Fake Music Generator runs on cgMusic, but isn't as easy to customize as cgMusic, so you'll end up getting a lot of very samey output from it. If you like FMG, I strongly encourage you to get cgMusic directly instead as you can add in your own files to its library to customize it further.

 

Also, don't expect to use that without changes, I'd say... most of the cgM tracks I've generated had to be edited in a MIDI editor to be usable, e.g. by moving parts of the track around to create proper verses/choruses.


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#9 Paul Levasseur

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:59 PM

This is an interesting topic.  One of the professors that I studied with in my undergrad was taking a somewhat similar approach to creating music although in his case, it was far more advanced and controlled than what these programs do.  Band in a Box is another program that is similar in that it 'fleshes out' music.

While I only took a cursory look at the article for the time being, I think this technology can serve a number of purposes.  Being a composer, I don't like being supplanted by software but in cases where developers do not have a budget for music, this is definitely an attractive alternative even if it cannot fully replace a 'hand crafted' and 'tailor made' score.  

I think there is another very obvious application for these programs beyond what has been discussed.  Oftentimes there can be a large language barrier between developers / film directors and composers.  Procedural music would allow a game developer to create 'reference tracks' which then communicates information about what music is required without having to rely on music terminology.  (Let's face it, words like 'tempo' 'time signature' 'key' 'mode' 'harmonies' 'melody' 'form' 'orchestration'. etc. can be confusing)   

 

[edit]

 

 

 

  Summary

My final impressions on procedural music are that it is a subject that isn't explored enough and has the potential to greatly help out small development studios. As a tool to flesh out prototypes before hiring a musician it's great and should certainly be considered, but for final games I think it still has a way to go, although the sheer quirkiness of the music most generators produce could be a bonus for some styles of puzzle or ambient games, so don't rule it out completely.



These are my thoughts exactly.  After listening to some examples, I'd gather that any Dev studio can find an amateur composer who could equal or surpass the results I head from Abundant Music and a composer at that level of skill and experience would likely score a game for free.


Edited by Paul Levasseur, 06 September 2015 - 07:21 PM.

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#10 Nocturne

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:21 PM

I think there is another very obvious application for these programs beyond what has been discussed.  Oftentimes there can be a large language barrier between developers / film directors and composers.  Procedural music would allow a game developer to create 'reference tracks' which then communicates information about what music is required without having to rely on music terminology.  (Let's face it, words like 'tempo' 'time signature' 'key' 'mode' 'harmonies' 'melody' 'form' 'orchestration'. etc. can be confusing)   

 

Yep, that's a good point! It's pretty much what I was suggesting in the conclusion when I say that PG music is useful for fleshing out prototypes... I'll edit that part to include your point in more detail tomorrow. :thumbsup:


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#11 Paul Levasseur

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 05:24 AM

 

I think there is another very obvious application for these programs beyond what has been discussed.  Oftentimes there can be a large language barrier between developers / film directors and composers.  Procedural music would allow a game developer to create 'reference tracks' which then communicates information about what music is required without having to rely on music terminology.  (Let's face it, words like 'tempo' 'time signature' 'key' 'mode' 'harmonies' 'melody' 'form' 'orchestration'. etc. can be confusing)   

 

Yep, that's a good point! It's pretty much what I was suggesting in the conclusion when I say that PG music is useful for fleshing out prototypes... I'll edit that part to include your point in more detail tomorrow. :thumbsup:

 

Certainly.  I absolutely love the article and I definitely agree that the greatest use of these programs is that it provides a medium of communication between musicians & non-musicians.  I actually tried to muck about with Abundant Music and the interface was entirely frustrating for me since it was so foreign compared to the music creation tools I am accustomed to working with.  But this is a moot point since I am definitely not the target user here lol!  How does everyone else feel about the interface?  Do you find it somewhat intuitive when it comes to creating a result that you like?  

As a digression, I'd like to discuss some trivia about this form of creating music.  Please take this as a TL;DR warning for anyone who doesn't want to deal with music terms and a more involved music discussion.  I'll try my best to keep it very simple and use as many analogies and metaphors as possible to keep it understandable but it will end up being somewhat technical because of the nature of the information that I wish to communicate:

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Edited by Paul Levasseur, 07 September 2015 - 05:25 AM.

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#12 RujiK

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 03:02 PM

The next step for procedural music would be to generate it on the fly inside the game.

 

So there would be no looping, no starting or stopping tracks, just one continuous track that morphs to match the situation.


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#13 chance

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 04:04 PM

(snip) ...just one continuous track that morphs to match the situation.

 

Reminds me of those theater organists from the silent film days.  I've read that really skilled ones could accompany films they hadn't seen before.  Just by watching the film and improvising the right mood music to match the plot action.


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#14 Paul Levasseur

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 06:56 PM

The next step for procedural music would be to generate it on the fly inside the game.

 

So there would be no looping, no starting or stopping tracks, just one continuous track that morphs to match the situation.

For sure.  There is a lot of research going into this sort of music within academic / concert music circles and it is a real shame that these artists often have no interest in media music whatsoever because their technology would be so perfect for it.  

To render what you are talking about, it would make the most sense to have a musician / composer / genius create the 'procedural music' software that is then controlled by the game engine.  The game developer can use the game engine to control the audio component of the software in conjunction with what is happening in the game.    The game's composer would then create all the musical components specifically for the game so that all the 'randomly generated' musical results would be specifically tailored to the game.  The biggest problem with the PG music featured in the article Nocturne wrote is that it tries to cover way too much ground and it does this by generating the very DNA of music based on very small snippets of musical material.  The result is that there is this weird collage effect and the music ends up sounding really fake.  In practice, a composer can create larger chunks of material -such as full melodies and harmonies- and only the material necessary for the individual game can be programmed.  This would yield a far more useful and pleasing end result.  
In this case, cogent musical ideas with a logical flow could be created ahead of time and the program then puts them all together based on what the game needs at any given time.  In theory, this seems very plausible, but in practice I'd imagine it would be a whole pile of works that only a genius could muster.  Dynamic scores are moving in this direction but the process of how they are executed is likely far more simple. 

The professor I mentioned earlier has a program he uses for his computer assisted composition. What would need to happen is that a programmer or a group of programmers need to create the necessary music software to run along side the game engine and it needs to be set up in such a way that the composer is then able to control the elements.

The big issue that you'll run into with this sort of a setup is file size.  For instance, my orchestral sound library is 680gigs so any sort of high end 'film quality' scores would likely be out of the question for something like this.  Samples with a smaller footprint are almost 100% necessary to create a score and fit within a reasonable file size for a game.  
 

 

 

(snip) ...just one continuous track that morphs to match the situation.

 

Reminds me of those theater organists from the silent film days.  I've read that really skilled ones could accompany films they hadn't seen before.  Just by watching the film and improvising the right mood music to match the plot action.

 

 

 

People still do this on occasion.  I have a pianist / composer friend & colleague from school who gets asked to do this sort of thing at special events.  


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#15 Ultimate Omicron

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 07:35 PM

The Immortal uses procedural music at parts.

 

I tried recording it one time and it would just go on for hours with no loop points, then I noticed it was generated randomly.


Edited by Ultimate Omicron, 15 September 2015 - 07:35 PM.


#16 Paul Levasseur

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 09:14 PM

The Immortal uses procedural music at parts.

 

I tried recording it one time and it would just go on for hours with no loop points, then I noticed it was generated randomly.

So they built a music generating script / program right into the game?  Are we talking about the old Genesis game here?


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#17 Ultimate Omicron

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 03:23 AM

 

The Immortal uses procedural music at parts.

 

I tried recording it one time and it would just go on for hours with no loop points, then I noticed it was generated randomly.

So they built a music generating script / program right into the game?  Are we talking about the old Genesis game here?

 

Yes. The game simply has a string instrument that gets a random pitch every 3 seconds or so. Some sections have proper composed music, but the longest parts of the game use the randomly generated tune.


Edited by Ultimate Omicron, 16 September 2015 - 03:24 AM.


#18 Paul Levasseur

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 05:52 AM

OK, so it was a pretty rudimentary thing then; nothing as sophisticated as what I was discussing.  I really think that PG music would be best in a game if all the musical components were designed specifically for that game.  Just like how all art assets should be designed specifically for a game as well.  I bet 'The Immortal' required that sort of a random score for this particular point in the game.  Would you say it was implemented effectively!?


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#19 Ultimate Omicron

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 11:32 PM

Would you say it was implemented effectively!?

Well, yes.

 

https://youtu.be/eFTEMrlxOhc?t=3m35s



#20 Erik Leppen

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Posted 17 September 2015 - 03:00 PM

The next step for procedural music would be to generate it on the fly inside the game.

Is that a next step?

It's what Lines does. It's simple, and most intervals are predefined, but it's influenced by random numbers (as well as what happens in the game).
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#21 Paul Levasseur

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 06:05 AM

 

Would you say it was implemented effectively!?

Well, yes.

 

https://youtu.be/eFTEMrlxOhc?t=3m35s

 

It's funny, but I'm not 'hearing' the random notes you're talking about.  To me, it sounds very much like it was precomposed and I can always tell when it starts over.  

 

 

 

The next step for procedural music would be to generate it on the fly inside the game.

Is that a next step?

It's what Lines does. It's simple, and most intervals are predefined, but it's influenced by random numbers (as well as what happens in the game).

 

That's awesome.  I think it's really the best way to approach using this kind of a technology.  Having most musical elements precomposed will yield a much more pleasing result.  The biggest problem with the web based programs is that they attempt to cover too much ground and that is partially why the result is so unnatural sounding.  


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#22 Ultimate Omicron

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 03:44 PM

 

 

Would you say it was implemented effectively!?

Well, yes.

 

https://youtu.be/eFTEMrlxOhc?t=3m35s

 

It's funny, but I'm not 'hearing' the random notes you're talking about.  To me, it sounds very much like it was precomposed and I can always tell when it starts over.  

The seed resets when something happens. I really left it recording for a whole hour and it had no loop points.



#23 Paul Levasseur

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 04:24 PM

I was hearing the same pitch relationships  (notes) happening each time it starts over in the game.  I would be REALLY curious to hear it recorded for a whole hour.  It's possible that certain musical phrases are selected randomly but it is also possible that the structure of the music is such that it is difficult to hear any sort of order.   If you were to record 1 hour of that and I was to transcribe it, now THAT would be a pretty nerdy thing to do but it would definitely answer the question.   I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just genuinely curious.  


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#24 Geoff Moore

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 06:25 PM

Darn robots stealing my job!! :P

 

Seriously though, this is a fascinating discussion leading on from a fascinating article. I'd love to experiment with a tool where a composer, professional or otherwise, can make a bit of music and then let the machine expand on it, see how it's process differed, tell it what works and what doesn't and give it nudges where needed, attempt to collaborate with the machine and come up with something altogether different than they would alone.


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#25 Ultimate Omicron

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Posted 25 September 2015 - 01:44 AM

I would be REALLY curious to hear it recorded for a whole hour.

Hehehehe, I'll try something.

 

I do admit my memory may fail me, last time I messed with this game... was too long ago.

 

I'm 5 minutes/50mb in and so far nothing seems to loop.

 

7 minutes in, it seems to pick randomly from 3 or 4 types of sequences for the main track, while the accompanying track hits random notes, so it sounds unique but structured. I'll record it in the background as I mess with some work-related games.

 

Sometimes it sounds like it's going to repeat but the fact the second instrume- wait, i think i heard a loop point. 10 minutes in. I think I was retarded back in 2006 or something. I'll record 20 mins.

 

Yeah it does sound like that - first channel going on a sequence and second channel going randomly. They get really dissonant at parts.

 

computer's getting pretty hot. I have a 285 mb file so far.

 

done. recorded 35 minutes. 357 mb... converting to low quality ogg.

 

took 3 minutes to convert. Didn't get low quality at all. Here you go, 35 minutes of the immortal immortalting (21.0mb):

 

https://www.dropbox....tal_000.7z?dl=0


Edited by Ultimate Omicron, 25 September 2015 - 02:33 AM.


#26 Paul Levasseur

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Posted 25 September 2015 - 08:55 PM

Darn robots stealing my job!! :P

 

Seriously though, this is a fascinating discussion leading on from a fascinating article. I'd love to experiment with a tool where a composer, professional or otherwise, can make a bit of music and then let the machine expand on it, see how it's process differed, tell it what works and what doesn't and give it nudges where needed, attempt to collaborate with the machine and come up with something altogether different than they would alone.

This is pretty much what one of my mentors is doing these days.  I can't remember the name of the program he uses but he has a great deal of control over what the computer will create and he can choose to keep what he wants and generate the rest over again until he gets an idea he is happy with.

If you listen to some of the PG examples, I'm sure you'll hear the sweet sound of job security =-p  Any musician who can't outdo those programs has to ask serious questions whether this is the right career path.

 

 

 

I would be REALLY curious to hear it recorded for a whole hour.

Hehehehe, I'll try something.

 

I do admit my memory may fail me, last time I messed with this game... was too long ago.

 

I'm 5 minutes/50mb in and so far nothing seems to loop.

 

7 minutes in, it seems to pick randomly from 3 or 4 types of sequences for the main track, while the accompanying track hits random notes, so it sounds unique but structured. I'll record it in the background as I mess with some work-related games.

 

Sometimes it sounds like it's going to repeat but the fact the second instrume- wait, i think i heard a loop point. 10 minutes in. I think I was retarded back in 2006 or something. I'll record 20 mins.

 

Yeah it does sound like that - first channel going on a sequence and second channel going randomly. They get really dissonant at parts.

 

computer's getting pretty hot. I have a 285 mb file so far.

 

done. recorded 35 minutes. 357 mb... converting to low quality ogg.

 

took 3 minutes to convert. Didn't get low quality at all. Here you go, 35 minutes of the immortal immortalting (21.0mb):

 

https://www.dropbox....tal_000.7z?dl=0

 

Thanks for doing this.  I'll have to take a look at it as soon as I have a moment!  I'll report back after ^__^

Hmm.  I decided to get creative and I played two recordings of the same track at the same time.  For about the first minute and a half, they were verbatim but then they diverged, just as you said.  I also noticed that the one part was the same and the other was different.  The youtube upload of the score only had 2 1/2 minutes of the track recorded so I wasn't able to investigate beyond that but I do agree, I definitely hear a random element in there for sure.  It's just the opening bit is the same each time and it repeats each time the track starts over during gameplay.  This really begs the question:  Why create a randomized and open ended track with a defined introduction if you're going to start it over every time it is interrupted by some sort of disruption in game?  


Edited by Paul Levasseur, 28 September 2015 - 03:44 AM.

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#27 Alvare

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 08:51 AM

Most likely has been said before, but, only thing I recommend when doing such a thing as random sounding music is to compose layers and each play them individually.
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#28 Paul Levasseur

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 05:21 AM

Hmm.  I don't think 'random sounding' music is the desired result from PG music.  For writing random sounding music, you can create a 12 tone style composition and randomize the rhythmic values as well.  


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#29 Zerb Games

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 10:42 PM

I think that procedural music can sound good but is insanely difficult to pull off so I definitely see why so many people hate it. (not necessarily on gmc just in general)


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#30 Ethanicus

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 01:13 AM

Oh my gosh, Abundant Music is amazing! It always seems to align with my seed word, too...


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#31 Paul Levasseur

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 08:00 PM

I think that procedural music can sound good but is insanely difficult to pull off so I definitely see why so many people hate it. (not necessarily on gmc just in general)

 

Well, there is this tension between quality and adaptability.  If you break down music too much into it's 'atoms' then it gets really hard to have it organize a cohesive musical work.    Something like PG can be used by a composer to great effect and I think as a technique, it could make for very compelling open ended music if it was running within a game.  The issue is that a programmer -or a programmer composer genius- would need to taylor each PG program & musical material individually for every track in the game.  Important, salient aspects of music such as melody and harmonies could conceivably be composed and then entered into the program.  

To my ear, these web based programs sound really terrible but I think I've discussed my viewpoints on this at length already.  


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#32 winj42

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 11:52 PM

I love this. My dog was very confused by the high frequencies that were being played.


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#33 gibberingmouther

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 11:14 PM

composing is a joyful activity.  to use "procedural music" is to deny yourself this.

 

encouraging video:

https://www.youtube....h?v=DAcjV60RnRw


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#34 Alvare

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 03:45 PM

Iji has one part, sector z, that has dynamic music. The code creates an array, sized 128. Then it loops through that.

Each part of the array plays a sound at a certain pitch. :)


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#35 Karurosu

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 11:14 PM

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