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Important changes to our VAT requirements


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#1 GameDevDan

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 12:34 PM

Please note that unfortunately from 01.01.15 we will be obliged to charge VAT under the HMRC regulations below:
 
 
This will require us to make some changes to the information we require to enable us to establish the VAT rate applicable to the sale. 
 
Under the new regulations from the HMRC we must keep applicable records for 10 years, however please be assured that information will not be given to any third party, unless legally forced.
 
If you feel unhappy about the new MOSS regulations (Mini One Stop Shop), then please see the link below where you can actively oppose this:
 

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#2 chance

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 01:15 PM

Dan, your announcement would be more useful if you described what new information YoYoGames will collect.   (And it might reduce the number of duplicate questions and complaints.) 

 

The new EU law requires two sources of information about customer's location.  So I assume you're referring to customer's billing address and telephone number.


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#3 Nocturne

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 01:33 PM

I suspect that the "new information" 1) hasn't been decided yet and 2) will be different depending on your needs/wishes as I imagine that YYG will want to offer a choice if possible of what personal details to give. And you can't assume about the information required because the new law offers multiple different methods that can be "mixed and matched" to suit, from what I understand of things.


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#4 chance

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 01:51 PM

I expect you're right.  And I share your hope that YYG can offer a choice of fields, for customer convenience.   As you said, the new law allows vendors to choose two sources from a variety of options such as billing address, phone number, IP address, banking details, etc. 

 

Since the Marketplace recently added the phone number field (as discussed here), I assumed this announcement was in response to those questions.


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#5 jackhigh24

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 05:39 PM

what i dont get is iv just read that moss thing and it does not say the usual stuff about VAT, like i was reading the requirements and spotted that i will have to register i think too, but its doesnt say at what amount of income you have to reg for VAT, it seems that you have to reg regardless of what you earn, plus as most of the game maker studio users sell there games or have ads or in app purchases in there games, then the seller should be a business, so this should not effect yoyo as technically there selling to businesses not individuals.


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#6 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 08:23 PM

There is no minimal amount of income for VAT. If you earn anything - you have to register (I believe), which is why it's going to be a serious nail in the Indie game dev coffin. 

 

I believe the requirement is 3 bits of info. Address, IP and phone number. We'll check in the new year as to what we can do to help more, but currently - that's what we've gone with. The forms will accept mobile numbers - I believe.

 

If you don't want to deal with VAT, then you need to stick to Apple, Google or Steam, as they deal with it for you - as we do (I think) for Market place sales.


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#7 Lonewolff

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 08:46 PM

@Mike - So, can you confirm that this won't affect the Marketplace?

 


which is why it's going to be a serious nail in the Indie game dev coffin. 

 

Assuming that all indies are from the UK, right?


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#8 chance

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 10:17 PM

I believe the requirement is 3 bits of info. Address, IP and phone number.

 

Reading the new regs is tricky, because the tax council chose to amend the existing regs by adding / replacing paragraphs... here and there.  So it's cumbersome to put it all together in one place. 

 

But there's a summary here, that applies (I believe) to e-businesses like YoYoGames -- i.e. TBE and MOSS.  It claims two sources of customer location are required.  Although I expect most vendors will ask for three, just to be sure they have at least two that don't contradict.  God forbid you should ever get audited.

 

Clearly a pain in the butt.  But the EU allows member states to set their own tax laws -- instead of abiding by a single one.   So international businesses pay the price for that patchwork of laws.

 

Here's the part I think applies:

Spoiler

 

EDIT:  just to be clear, I'm not presuming to explain the tax laws to YYG's accountants.  I just thought others might be interested in this.  I certainly am.. but I'm a policy wonk.


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#9 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 12:21 AM

I have no idea. I'm just passing along what we've been told - we're far from TAX experts. But I'll pass your find along...


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#10 Parakoopa

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 01:36 AM

I just read through the explanation of this new law in my language and apperantly if this also applys to marketplace sales for me, I would have to stop selling, because as a small company here in Germany I don't have to pay taxes, but I would have to with this new law (to each EU contry), and I could also not use the MOSS.

 

So information on this would be appreciated.


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#11 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 08:33 AM

I believe we handle all marketplace VAT for you - but I'll get confirmation.


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#12 rwkay

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 10:10 AM

YoYo Games handle all the VAT for Marketplace and Player on behalf of sellers so they do not need to worry about that.

 

Russell


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#13 slayer 64

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 03:36 PM

so how much does this new law cost? just getting a few more details from me? should i sign that petition or am i just the little guy?
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#14 chance

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 03:59 PM

(snip) should i sign that petition or am i just the little guy?

 

This is about the "little guy".    The petition is to keep the threshold exemption on sales tax for small EU businesses.  Not sure it has much hope, since small businesses already have deductions associated with the cost of doing business.  But it never hurts to try.

 

I suppose it could be worse.  Originally, the new EU VAT rules didn't have the MOSS option.  So businesses would be required to register for VAT separately in every EU member country. 


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#15 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 04:18 PM

So, selling things on the Marketplace or Player requires this now, but this is just for YoYo right?
I mean my phone number isn't going to be given to vendors, right, just YoYo?
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#16 jackhigh24

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 11:15 PM

ye lukan its not your details its your customers details that have to be kept a record of, and as your selling on marketplace then yoyo have to handle the details of your customers and pay the vat, will only efect you direct maybe by way of yoyo might have to give your details to all the eu member states if they ask for it but im not sure on that yoyo might confirm it thought at some point, but it will efect me as im selling through my own companies so il have to cover this with several businesses, although i supose my accountant will handle the VAT side of things and il just have to keep records, and ye chance makes a good point there as well, HMRC can through an audit at you at any time and freeze everything you own until its done, it would be a nightmare to cover all countries at once if they do that and that could cost a very lot.

 

everyone needs to sign that petition 


Edited by jackhigh24, 23 December 2014 - 11:15 PM.

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#17 Bardan

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Posted 24 December 2014 - 02:51 PM

I wonder how this law can affect foreign indie developers, I mean outside the European Union.


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#18 Manuel777

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Posted 24 December 2014 - 06:19 PM

I wonder how this law can affect foreign indie developers, I mean outside the European Union.

 

I think it doesnt make any difference, but please correct me if I am wrong. When I signed up for the marketplace VAT was not required for sellers outside the UK.


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#19 GameGeisha

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Posted 24 December 2014 - 08:29 PM

I wonder how this law can affect foreign indie developers, I mean outside the European Union.

 
As far as I am concerned, the only difference it makes to developers and buyers outside the EU is that they now need to provide a billing address and a phone number to prove that they are VAT-exempt.
 
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#20 chance

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Posted 24 December 2014 - 10:38 PM

I wonder how this law can affect foreign indie developers, I mean outside the European Union.

 

Buyers and sellers on YoYoGames' Marketplace don't have to worry about this, no matter where they're located.  As Russell said (post #12), YoYoGames handles the VAT taxes and decides whether or not they apply.

 

For Indie developers outside the EU, NOT selling on the Marketplace (not really related to this topic)

Spoiler

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#21 EgoTrip

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Posted 25 December 2014 - 10:33 AM


everyone needs to sign that petition 

 

I completely agree. However you don't know how british "democracy" works if you think that petition has a snowballs chance in hell of working. They will just laugh it out of the commons if its brought up.

 

This is about money. This is about penny pinching, which the Tories excel at. When it comes to money the government want as much as they can get from us, especially those of us with the least, and the most to lose through their messed up policies. Look at all the cuts and taxes made in the past few years, and how they unfairly targeted the sick, the poor, the disabled, the hard working and low paid people. Then the rich got loads of benefits. This is just a continuation of all of that.


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#22 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 25 December 2014 - 03:35 PM

everyone needs to sign that petition

 
I completely agree. However you don't know how british "democracy" works if you think that petition has a snowballs chance in hell of working. They will just laugh it out of the commons if its brought up.
 
This is about money. This is about penny pinching, which the Tories excel at. When it comes to money the government want as much as they can get from us, especially those of us with the least, and the most to lose through their messed up policies. Look at all the cuts and taxes made in the past few years, and how they unfairly targeted the sick, the poor, the disabled, the hard working and low paid people. Then the rich got loads of benefits. This is just a continuation of all of that.

You just described American government, friend. Except with less dick pics and crimes normal citizens would be jailed for.
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#23 chance

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Posted 25 December 2014 - 08:58 PM


I completely agree. However you don't know how british "democracy" works if you think that petition has a snowballs chance in hell of working. They will just laugh it out of the commons if its brought up.
 
This is about money. This is about penny pinching, which the Tories excel at. (snip)


This is an EU law, not a British law.   It has nothing to do with British law, or the Tories.

 

The motivation is to stop international companies from taking advantage of lower taxes in countries like Luxembourg, for example.   They set up corporate offices there and channel sales through it, in order to bypass the often very high tax rates in other EU countries.   The new VAT laws are a response to the wide variation in tax rates throughout Europe.


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#24 EgoTrip

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 08:37 AM

Yes it may be an EU law, but I don't see the Tories, who often oppose EU laws, opposing this one. Because it fits well within their "nasty party" policies, and gets them more money. It's even beneficial for them politically that the EU is bringing it in, so they can pass the blame when people complain and make themselves look "innocent". In reality, they more than likely wanted to bring it in themselves until they found out the EU was going to. Sure it may prevent the minority of massive corporations abusing loopholes, but in reality it punishes the majorty of the honest, small companies. Regardless of who is to blame for the law.


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#25 NakedPaulToast

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 03:30 PM

Some people just shouldn't be discussing politics.


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#26 mr magnus

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 05:49 AM

Some people just shouldn't be discussing politics.

It's just a damned shame that many of those people happen to be politicians. 


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#27 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 09:39 AM

Okay...closing. This isn't a political discussion here, its simply a notification about the new VAT rules those in the EU have to follow.


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