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YoYo Games announce changes to module pricing


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#101 grimdayz

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 12:54 AM

Nobody should be blowing steam yet as we've yet to hear an official word from YoYo on the subject. In fact, now would be a good time to contact the them through the helpdesk and get more information. I don't own the YYC so I'm not obliged to do this.


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#102 hamid1855

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 01:27 AM

I noticed a bump in the HTML5 export's price, to $200. Why? Are YoYo improving it as well?

 

I only ask because it doesn't have a YYC module, so increasing it's price would be silly unless it is also getting improved.

Otherwise I am entirely happy with this, I had a feeling they were going to wait until Studio 2 to do this, so it's a nice surprise! :D

 

Also, do we have to wait for the pricing changes for this to take effect, or will this update be included when the Player and 1.4 launch later this month?

 

Probably they realized that HTML5 programs can be converted into iOS/Android apps which could potentially render purchasing the mobile modules useless?


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#103 Mornedil

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:34 AM

 

 

 

Pfff.... It's Sunday and my head is obviously still not fully awake. Sorry, I honestly couldn't see what you guys were getting at but Lukans post has helped clear it up. I'll see if we can't get something official posted tomorrow.

 
<sarcasm>
 
    I bought GM:HTML5 at a stupidly low price like everyone else had the chance to when it was in beta and now it's $200. Can you do anything about that?
 
</sarcasm>
 
 
Ignore them, my concern is Steam. I bought android on steam. Will this new update apply to me too?

 

Not only is that "example" completely different than the situation YYC people are facing, but you make yourself look ignorant by making it.
These people are worried that, should they choose to buy modules after November 6th that they will be charged AGAIN for something they have already purchased.
They already own the YYC, and they don't want to be faced will additional module charges for something they were told they would get already since they have a whole YYC module license.

 

 
Actually, I've been thinking about this... *SNIP*
 
I guess you could say that I still fail to see what the issue here is then... The price has gone up, but noone who already bought anything has LOST anything at all, as far as I can see, nor are they paying for anything they already own.

 

 
 
I thought you understood, but apparently you changed your mind again and don't understand.
 
First of all, your example on the last page is NOT what YYC customers are experiencing.
The DO NOT experience:

I bought <insert goods name here> and the next <insert timeframe here> the price was changed and I am <insert feeling here>.

 
I believe this is more accurate for those who bought the YoYoCompiler:

Spoiler

 I took the liberty of filling in all the <insert product/company/timframe> so that the example is more clear.
Bluray player = YYC.  Bluray disc = Export module. Samsung = YYG.
 
I personally did not buy the YoYoCompiler, because I neither wanted nor needed it. So for me it feels like:
Spoiler
in this case <watch it on my PS3> changes into <export games for android> in my personal case. I don't need the YYC for that, and I wouldn't mind if I had to pay the $100 extra to enable the YYC for my andoid exports. But preferrably, the YYC should have stayed a seperate purchase for those who want or need it, because it has both it's advantages and disadvantages.
 
Neither of these examples result in a good relationship between the company and the customer, which is a very important aspect if the company wants the customer to spend more money.
 
 
 
 
If you STILL don't understand how the customers feel and why YYG should care, let's look at some facts and compare it to the information we have been given in this topic:

Statement 1:
I think everyone agrees that this topic is about YYG integrating the YoYoCompiler in the export modules, therefore increasing the individual pricing of those modules by $100 to make up for the improved service they offer.

That is completely up to YoYoGames, although it's arguable if it's "right/correct" to increase the HTML5 module price with $100 when it does not benefit at all from this upgrade. So in the following calculations I will exclude the HTML5 module, because it has nothing to do with the YYC

Fact 1:
the YYC currently costs $300

Fact 2:
The total price increase of all modules (excluding HTML5) is $300.

Now, Nocturne..
 

if you bought the Android module and the YYC before, then all you got were the Android module and the Android YYC module. You didn't get it for iOS (and it wasn't available for windows phone) unless you then later purchased the iOS module So, to get it for iOS, you'll still have to buy the iOS module, and THAT hasn't changed, all that's happened is that the module price has gone up. And prices go up (and down) all the time, so what difference does it make? *

This means that noone is paying for anything twice **. If you happened to have iOS and Android and then bought the YYC, then yes, you'd get it for both platforms... but that hasn't changed really as if you buy Android and iOS now, you'd still get the YYC for both platforms.


* the difference is that YYG officially states that the reason for a price increase is because of the YYC.
** That is wrong. They DO pay more money for the exact same products -- And as YYG stated, the price increase is because you now get the YYC with the export modules, so they DO pay $100 again for the same product.
 
 
So, here's why YYG should give a discount to those with a YYC licence (remember that I'm excluding the price increase of HTML5 as it has nothing to do with the YYC. That means, even IF YYG decides to keep the new price of the HTML5 modules, It should not be discounted for anyone as the price has obviously been increased for other reasons):
 
John Doe purchased the Android and IOS export module for $200 each, and the YYC for $300 BEFORE the YYC change.
200 + 200 + 300 = 700

Mary Ann purchased the Andoid and IOS export module for $300 each AFTER the YYC change.
300 + 300 = 600

Now, If John Doe and Mary Ann both purchased a licence for the Windows Phone export module AFTER the YYC change, they will both pay $300.

Mary Ann total: 300+300+300 = 900
John Doe Total: 200+200+300+300 = 1000

As you can see, John Doe has paid $100 more than Mary Ann for the exact same products, and he feels <insert feeling> because YoYoGames officially stated the price increase is because the export now includes the YYC, which he has already paid for. 
If YoYoGames gave John Doe a $100 discount for each module he bought after the YYC change, he would have paid the exact same total price as Mary Ann.

You can do any kind of combination of which modules John buys before or after the change, and you will notice that he loses exactly $100 per export module he did not buy before the change.
So therefore a $100 discount for having a YYC licence is John's right as a customer so that he does not pay the compiler price again. But again, as you say Nocturne, YYG can do whatever they want with their products. But unless they want to look like an unprofessional company that can't even do simple math, they should think more about their customers and how their changes affects those customers.
 
Personally, I would have spent more money on their services if they didn't constantly make bad business desicions.

Spoiler


Edited by Pandaboy, 13 October 2014 - 11:55 AM.

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#104 Sirosky

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 04:28 AM

My response when I just come here to make a short comment and I see the previous posts.

 

KEeLXcn.gif


Edited by Sirosky, 13 October 2014 - 04:35 AM.

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#105 11clock

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 04:30 AM

I am against this. I have a friend who bought the YYC only for the Windows compile. Are you telling me he wasted his money?
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#106 Mornedil

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 04:45 AM

My response when I just come here to make a short comment and I see the previous posts.

 

KEeLXcn.gif

 

I lol'd  :P

But really, it's important that the forum moderators and representatives of YYG understands things from their customers' point of view. The fact is, if they make decisions that customers think badly of, it negatively affects the company's image. They could choose to learn from it (and maybe even correct it) in the future, instead of arguing against how the customers feel towards the company.

(You can't argue with feelings, they exist wether you want it or not, and the only way to change them is to change what caused them)


Edited by Pandaboy, 13 October 2014 - 04:54 AM.

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#107 Nocturne

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 05:49 AM

 

I know you're working for YYG, Nocturne, but being purposefully obtuse doesn't suit you. You're not a good enough actor to convince us all you're that oblivious. =P

 

 

LOL! I'm not being deliberately obtuse... I DO see where you guys are coming from, and I do understand. However I don't agree as I genuinely wouldn't see things that way if I was in the same position. Personally I just feel that the price rise was coming anyway, whether the YYC was included or not, and YYG have decided to include the YYC to "sweeten" the rise for users. It still seems a good deal to me... :)


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#108 Mornedil

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 05:56 AM

What kind of brainwashing to they perform on their employees over at the YYG headquarters :P?


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#109 Nocturne

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 06:01 AM

BTW, I have forwarded this on so hopefully you guys will get some official feedback later.  :thumbsup:


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#110 freaky_entertainment

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 06:29 AM

Once the YYC goes free can I still obtain it without updating GM:S itself? Since I am with 1.3.1354 which works fine (updates **** up my current project's physics and I won't update until it's finished)...


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#111 HopelessComposer

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 07:22 AM

LOL! I'm not being deliberately obtuse... I DO see where you guys are coming from, and I do understand. However I don't agree as I genuinely wouldn't see things that way if I was in the same position. Personally I just feel that the price rise was coming anyway, whether the YYC was included or not, and YYG have decided to include the YYC to "sweeten" the rise for users. It still seems a good deal to me... :)

Well, like I said, I don't really care either. This actually works out really well for me. I feel vindicated for not buying a $300 module I always thought would end up being bundled like this. I get the YYC for free. And I get to watch some funny internet dramas unfold. I'm pretty happy right now. :'D

 

That said, I do understand why the people who bought the YYC will be upset if they don't get any kind of discount on the other modules. I think you do too. =P


Edited by HopelessComposer, 13 October 2014 - 07:54 AM.

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#112 LVLYXL

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:12 AM

To be 100% honest, I don't feel great about this announcement for one reason.

I got the YYC in the sale, some 2-3 months ago at the start of August. I have all the export modules, so for me, it's a great investment.

 

What annoys me is that a Sale is a method to get rid of stock, anything in a sale is considered a bargain because you get a product at a cheaper price due to new version or season or whatever being released.

What annoys me here is no warning or mention of the YYC becoming obsolete at the sale time? 

So I got it, I don't need it yet as it was an investment for when I will need to compile my final game. But now, It's obsolete, I am effectively getting nothing from this new pricing structure, so I bought into a sale for zero reason. 

However I do feel a little ripped off, as 2 months ago I was sold a cheaper product through YYG email marketing and website marketing, only to find two months later YYG are making the product totally redundant. 

 

While I think YYG have an incredible product, that should be worth whatever they wish, the YYC shouldn't have been in the Sale if the intention was to make it obsolete, it's literally a method for YYG to print free money from it's existing users. I do think the sale was great for the modules, they're now going to be more expensive, so it's a logical price rise.

 


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#113 Lonewolff

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:25 AM

However I do feel a little ripped off, as 2 months ago I was sold a cheaper product through YYG email marketing and website marketing, only to find two months later YYG are making the product totally redundant. 

 

 

This happens every day with hardware, so why would software be any differerent?

 

People often spend $1000 on a graphics card just to have the fastest most up to date thing. A month later the same GFX card is $500 as Nvidia or AMD have pushed out the next model.

 

It is how it is in the real world.

 

How about those who just got Windows 8 and Windows 10 being just around the corner?


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#114 LVLYXL

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:16 AM

 

However I do feel a little ripped off, as 2 months ago I was sold a cheaper product through YYG email marketing and website marketing, only to find two months later YYG are making the product totally redundant. 

 

 

This happens every day with hardware, so why would software be any differerent?

 

People often spend $1000 on a graphics card just to have the fastest most up to date thing. A month later the same GFX card is $500 as Nvidia or AMD have pushed out the next model.

 

It is how it is in the real world.

 

How about those who just got Windows 8 and Windows 10 being just around the corner?

 

 

Yeah man don't get me wrong, I totally get that.

But that's not a comparison of this situation because the graphics card is still usable. 

In effect, imagine you bought this graphics card in a sale, one that would play games you didn't own just yet really well.

Then after 2 months it stopped working.

Then the government buys everyone a graphics card that was capable of only running the games people currently own.

You invested in a better card, so when you get the games you wanted in the future, you would of been able to play them faster. 

However, now, you only have a mediocre card capable of playing the games you currently own, and will have to pay more money for a better one to play the games you had already invested towards when buying the first card. 

 

See where I am going with this. YYC is literally being removed, so if you INVESTED with the hope of getting benefits when buying more modules, your investment is now worth jack all.
 


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#115 11clock

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:17 AM

However I do feel a little ripped off, as 2 months ago I was sold a cheaper product through YYG email marketing and website marketing, only to find two months later YYG are making the product totally redundant.

 
This happens every day with hardware, so why would software be any differerent?
 
People often spend $1000 on a graphics card just to have the fastest most up to date thing. A month later the same GFX card is $500 as Nvidia or AMD have pushed out the next model.
 
It is how it is in the real world.
 
How about those who just got Windows 8 and Windows 10 being just around the corner?

Because the older hardware is still usable.

The YYC is about to be rendered obsolete. My friend paid a ton of money for the YYC so that his Windows only MMO can run faster, and now YYG is making the Windows compiler free. This is ridiculous.
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#116 Mornedil

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:17 AM

 

However I do feel a little ripped off, as 2 months ago I was sold a cheaper product through YYG email marketing and website marketing, only to find two months later YYG are making the product totally redundant. 

 

 

This happens every day with hardware, so why would software be any differerent?

 

People often spend $1000 on a graphics card just to have the fastest most up to date thing. A month later the same GFX card is $500 as Nvidia or AMD have pushed out the next model.

 

It is how it is in the real world.

 

How about those who just got Windows 8 and Windows 10 being just around the corner?

 

 

What is it with people in this thread and making bad examples that isn't even close to being the same thing to the initial concern :P?

It's different, because you're talking about a company that releases a new product. YYG has not released anything new, they are completely nullifying the previous licence they sold. .. And if it's true they had a sale 2 months ago, knowing they would soon remove the licence completely... Then... I honestly have no words for it... How can they justify that?

 

This thead is really making me sad.. Because I like YYG, I really do.. But their business decisions makes it impossible to respect or trust them :/


Edited by Pandaboy, 13 October 2014 - 11:27 AM.

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#117 11clock

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:24 AM

I informed my friend about this. He is going to be upset that he dumped $180 into the YYC, only for it to now be free. Again, he only uses Windows exporting.
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#118 icuurd12b42

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:48 AM

Price rise price rise... I'm sorry but is this not actually the same prices but a re-package?

Is the android price not the price of the regular export + the price YYC export. I cant tell because I cant find the old YYC module page aside the new pricing.. Pretty sure the android export was 99 and the YYC was 199 though.

The same statement for all OS modules aside of course the HTML 5

And this debate about having only bought the YYC for android as an example, would you not automatically get the regular export if you only own the YYC version, just like you would automatically get the YYC if you own the regular android output as stated, and was it even possible to only have the YYC android in the past I can't remember? And I can't from all the *****ing, see any answers to that. To me it seems pretty obvious that one would/should get both versions of the output if you own either the YYC or the standard output for the OS...

Edited by icuurd12b42, 13 October 2014 - 11:49 AM.

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#119 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:51 AM

No, the android and iOS exports ARE $199.

The YYC module is $299.

 

They are taking the overall $300 from the YYC and adding it to the price of the individual modules.

 

BTW, the old prices are still listed until November 6th.

http://yoyogames.com/studio


Edited by LukanSpellweaver, 13 October 2014 - 11:52 AM.

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#120 icuurd12b42

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 12:05 PM

No, the android and iOS exports ARE $199.
The YYC module is $299.
 
They are taking the overall $300 from the YYC and adding it to the price of the individual modules.
 
BTW, the old prices are still listed until November 6th.
http://yoyogames.com/studio


So the YYC, when you bought it, cost 300$, it automatically gave you Windows YYC and Android YYC?

So Basically 150 per os. +199 for the regular output. gives 350$ per module. Whose price is now 300. so a saving of 50$. The theme is you are forces to get both Android and YYC modules because they no longer are individual entities. And they split the YYC package into OS specific components as opposed to what is was before, Windows and Android

OK. so now the BIG QUESTION IS
When you bought the YYC, was there a statement that you would get a free update of the YYC that would also include OTHER OS, gratis or a free update for the Windows and the Android?

And I still dont have the answer, if you bough the YYC which was for Windows and Android, I still don't see why you would not get the android module. did anyone answer that? Because if you did get the promise that you would gets a free update for the Windows and the Android, then you should automatically get the package that include the standard and the YYC version under the repackaging. Else this is close to being bait and switch, though not pre-meditated

Edited by icuurd12b42, 13 October 2014 - 12:10 PM.

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#121 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 12:07 PM

And iOS. But ONLY if you owned the modules, either before or after your purchase of the YYC.

You still had to buy the modules regardless of if you owned YYC.

 

So that's 100 a piece.

iOS

Windows

Android


Edited by LukanSpellweaver, 13 October 2014 - 12:08 PM.

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#122 icuurd12b42

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 12:23 PM

And iOS. But ONLY if you owned the modules, either before or after your purchase of the YYC.
You still had to buy the modules regardless of if you owned YYC.
 
So that's 100 a piece.
iOS
Windows
Android


So you could NOT compile an Android YYC if you did NOT have the Android regular output?

Then what the hell is everyone crying about!! When you bought the YYC you purchased the right to compile native code for the Regular Outputs you had installed!

So I will say Nocturne was right. Too bad the price of the output has risen. I wouldn't really worry about that. I mean if you did not get the module before then you find yourself seeing that if you ever need it it will cost more now that you anticipated it would if you ever saw the need to buy it in the future... so buy it now or forever keep you peace.
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#123 tsa05

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 12:24 PM

This is what surprises me:

 

 

There is no upgrade path to Master Collection I'm afraid. The Master Collection is in place for those users wishing to just pay for Master Collection straight away. It is not in place to upgraded to, think of of it like a Game of the year edition.

 

Anyone who has purchased Pro and a module or two, but now wishes to add more pays the price (literally) for failing to buy Master Collection in the first place.


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#124 Mornedil

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 12:38 PM

 

And iOS. But ONLY if you owned the modules, either before or after your purchase of the YYC.
You still had to buy the modules regardless of if you owned YYC.
 
So that's 100 a piece.
iOS
Windows
Android


So you could NOT compile an Android YYC if you did NOT have the Android regular output?

Then what the hell is everyone crying about!! When you bought the YYC you purchased the right to compile native code for the Regular Outputs you had installed!

So I will say Nocturne was right. Too bad the price of the output has risen. I wouldn't really worry about that. I mean if you did not get the module before then you find yourself seeing that if you ever need it it will cost more now that you anticipated it would if you ever saw the need to buy it in the future... so buy it now or forever keep you peace.

 

 

What..? I don't think you fully understand what has changed :P.. (or I'm not understanding you)

The YYC licence will be removed completely and the 300 dollars it used to cost will be divided between the export modules, adding 100 dollars to each of their price. So basically, if you previously purchased the YYC, then you are expected to pay for it again when you buy an export module, because you already paid for the thing that increased the price (I explained the math behind it in my extremely long post on the previous page)


Edited by Pandaboy, 13 October 2014 - 12:41 PM.

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#125 icuurd12b42

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 01:13 PM

What..? I don't think you fully understand what has changed :P.. (or I'm not understanding you)


No I do get it. You basically claim that if you ever buy the output for android in the future, the price should be reduced because you bought the YYC.

And having increased the price for the output you now see that the initial 299 cost was less of a deal.

More so if the promise for YYC updates for the future would include any other OS

I actually imply a few things from my last few posts

1) Even though they state there is a cost change, it does not implicitly means it is because the YYC is included for that export, even if they now say it is included. so like Nocturne said, they can increase the price of the export to anything they want.

2) And I claim that if the promise was made that the YYC output would cover every output in the future, like ios, windows phone, then you feel cheated because the price of the output has now risen, again is the raise tied to the fact it now includes YYC?

3) What was the deal behind the YYC compiler purchase? "As a result, the YoYo Compiler (YYC) will be discontinued and each Export Module will now include the compiler as standard. This will allow developers to create the best and most optimised games possible."

If the deal was you would get free updates and support for all platform outputs present and future to give YYC support for the output that you owned or will own then yoyo would have to make a special case for everyone having invested in a discontinued product. Such as offering a discount on the export for everyone involved. Or by giving ample notice for everyone to get the export they want before the contract is terminated. Which is what the news post there has done, though it is in no way a proper notice ATM.

I would hope yoyo would allow using your YYC key to get the outputs at reduced cost but having given notice and ample time to get the modules at the current price before the new prices take effect is probably enough as far as the lawful requirements go.

Edited by icuurd12b42, 13 October 2014 - 01:17 PM.

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#126 Mornedil

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 01:25 PM

What..? I don't think you fully understand what has changed :P.. (or I'm not understanding you)


No I do get it. You basically claim that if you ever buy the output for android in the future, the price should be reduced because you bought the YYC.

And having increased the price for the output you now see that the initial 299 cost was less of a deal.

More so if the promise for YYC updates for the future would include any other OS

I actually imply a few things from my last few posts



1) Even though they state there is a cost change, it does not implicitly means it is because the YYC is included for that export, even if they now say it is included. so like Nocturne said, they can increase the price of the export to anything they want.


Yes, that's exactly what it means. Here's a quote from the OP:

... the YoYo Compiler (YYC) will be discontinued and each Export Module will now include the compiler as standard. This will allow developers to create the best and most optimised games possible.
 
In accordance with these changes, effective November 6th the price of the Export Modules will be increased



2) And I claim that if the promise was made that the YYC output would cover every output in the future, like ios, windows phone, then you feel cheated because the price of the output has now risen, again is the raise tied to the fact it now includes YYC?

I didn't buy the YYC so I don't feel cheated. But I do understand why others feel that way. They purchased a licence that YYG is throwing down the garbage. And again, yes, the OP stated that the price increase of the module is directly tied to including the compiler with the modules.
 

3) What was the deal behind the YYC compiler purchase? "As a result, the YoYo Compiler (YYC) will be discontinued and each Export Module will now include the compiler as standard. This will allow developers to create the best and most optimised games possible."

Read the line exactly underneath that in the OP (which I quoted above). It clearly states that "in accordance" to including the YYC with the export modules, the price has increased. Which is another way of saying that the price increased because the YYC was included.

Edited by Pandaboy, 13 October 2014 - 01:29 PM.

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#127 11clock

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 01:29 PM

Can I make it clear again that those who bought the YYC who only own the Windows export module are being 100% ripped off?
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#128 icuurd12b42

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 01:37 PM

Well then it does look like the cost is associated to the YYC and as such everyone having bought YYC should get a Notice of product discontinuation with a remedy attached in the form of a coupon of equal value (minus depreciation) or a statement explaining your YYC key will get you the modules half price, which should not be a big problem since they already have such a feature on their purchase system. Or a notice giving you enough time to get the modules right now. Again without knowing the Yoyogame YYC purchase terms I can't give any realistic solution.
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#129 11clock

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 01:43 PM

Well then it does look like the cost is associated to the YYC and as such everyone having bought YYC should get a Notice of product discontinuation with a remedy attached in the form of a coupon of equal value (minus depreciation) or a statement explaining your YYC key will get you the modules half price, which should not be a big problem since they already have such a feature on their purchase system. Or a notice giving you enough time to get the modules right now. Again without knowing the Yoyogame YYC purchase terms I can't give any realistic solution.


I agree with the first solution, but not the others. The friend who I was referring to who only has the Windows export + YYC only has the Windows export module for a reason. He only plans on developing for Windows, so the other modules are useless to him. A discount wouldn't fix the problem.
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#130 Mornedil

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 01:56 PM

 

Well then it does look like the cost is associated to the YYC and as such everyone having bought YYC should get a Notice of product discontinuation with a remedy attached in the form of a coupon of equal value (minus depreciation) or a statement explaining your YYC key will get you the modules half price, which should not be a big problem since they already have such a feature on their purchase system. Or a notice giving you enough time to get the modules right now. Again without knowing the Yoyogame YYC purchase terms I can't give any realistic solution.


I agree with the first solution, but not the others. The friend who I was referring to who only has the Windows export + YYC only has the Windows export module for a reason. He only plans on developing for Windows, so the other modules are useless to him. A discount wouldn't fix the problem.

 

 

Well to be honest, that's not a good reason of wanting the money back. I now understand what Nocturne was talking about when he said that prices change and there will always be those who bought it for one price, and after <insert timeframe here> the price is reduced and the customer gets upset.

Your friend will still have the compiler that he paid for, just that now YYG includes it in the original package. That's just bad luck, and of course it's upsetting.. But YoYoGames has not removed the product from your friend, they have only made it free for the windows target.

However, this is about people having paid for the export module being asked to pay again for it. It is not about asking for a refund.


Edited by Pandaboy, 13 October 2014 - 02:01 PM.

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#131 11clock

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:01 PM

Well then it does look like the cost is associated to the YYC and as such everyone having bought YYC should get a Notice of product discontinuation with a remedy attached in the form of a coupon of equal value (minus depreciation) or a statement explaining your YYC key will get you the modules half price, which should not be a big problem since they already have such a feature on their purchase system. Or a notice giving you enough time to get the modules right now. Again without knowing the Yoyogame YYC purchase terms I can't give any realistic solution.

I agree with the first solution, but not the others. The friend who I was referring to who only has the Windows export + YYC only has the Windows export module for a reason. He only plans on developing for Windows, so the other modules are useless to him. A discount wouldn't fix the problem.
 
Well to be honest, that's not a good reason of wanting the money back. I now understand what Nocturne was talking about when he said that prices change and there will always be those who bought it for one price, and after <insert timeframe here> the price is reduced and the customer gets upset.
Your friend will still have the compiler that he paid for, just that now YYG includes it in the original package. That's just bad luck, and of course it's upsetting.. 
However, this is about people having paid for the export module being asked to pay again for it. It is not about asking for a refund.
Bad luck when YYG put the YYC on sale two months ago? That was the only reason why my friend bought it; it was on sale. Putting something on sale, then almost immediately making it useless is horrible marketing. It wasn't bad luck, it was being cheated.

Edited by 11clock, 13 October 2014 - 02:03 PM.

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#132 Mornedil

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:04 PM

 

Bad luck when YYG put the YYC on sale two months ago? That was the only reason why my friend bought it; it was on sale. Putting something on sale, then almost immediately making it useless is horrible marketing. It wasn't bad luck, it was being cheated.

 

 

Okay, I have to agree with that.

They should not have put up that sale to begin with. At that point, they should have already planned on discontinuing that licence, so putting it on sale was wrong.


Edited by Pandaboy, 13 October 2014 - 02:06 PM.

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#133 icuurd12b42

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:04 PM

Bad luck when YYG put the YYC on sale two months ago? That was the only reason why my friend bought it; it was on sale. Putting something on sale, then almost immediately making it useless is horrible marketing.

I believe they did the same with GameMaker HTML5 then a few weeks later Announcing GM:Studio with html5 support for about the same price. so there is precedence in the feeling of being cheated here.
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#134 Mornedil

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:10 PM

 

Bad luck when YYG put the YYC on sale two months ago? That was the only reason why my friend bought it; it was on sale. Putting something on sale, then almost immediately making it useless is horrible marketing.

I believe they did the same with GameMaker HTML5 then a few weeks later Announcing GM:Studio with html5 support for about the same price. so there is precedence in the feeling of being cheated here.

 

 

Just because they did it twice doesn't mean it's right.

But wait.. Doesn't the HTML5 module still need to be purchased seperately?

If they did a one-time discount for professional+html5 then that's just normal business.. But they are completely discontinuing the YYC licence shortly after putting it on sale.


Edited by Pandaboy, 13 October 2014 - 02:15 PM.

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#135 TsukaYuriko

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:15 PM

Anyone who has purchased Pro and a module or two, but now wishes to add more pays the price (literally) for failing to buy Master Collection in the first place.

That's the idea behind MC, really. It's not a maximum price cap, it's more like the limited time offer pre-order special. It's intended to reward the people who had faith in GM:S from the beginning... and as an added bonus, it serves as a maximum price cap for people who wish to buy more than a certain amount of modules. This is already extremely cooperative, why complain about such a great offer? The new full price for the software is around $2700 if my calculations are right - come on, you're saving roughly $1900 if you but MC at its current price! In fact, MC is about as expensive as Pro plus two modules is in the new price system.

 

I'm probably extremely biased here since I bought MC way back and am therefore not affected by the price increases... but hey, I originally bought Standard. A few weeks later, Pro + HTML5 was offered for the same price. Rather than complaining about being "ripped off", I took the initiative and took advantage of the offer. A few months later, YoYo offered a Pro -> MC upgrade, which I jumped onto as well. Had I complained about having been "ripped off" and refused to technically buy GM:S twice, I'd probably still be stuck with GM:S Standard and waiting for a sale like a hungry shark. Prices go up and down all the time, so catch those comparatively low prices while they're still valid and be glad that YoYo even warns you about the impending price change.

 

 

I agree that the whole YYC ordeal might seem unfair to some people, but complaining about it is useless as of right now. As Nocturne has stated, YoYo has been made aware of the complaints by him, so please just hold your breath until a there's an official statement about this. Chances are it's just an oversight, yet you are making YoYo out to be some sort of draconian evil company. They deserve better than that. This just turns this topic into a raging flame war and is getting nowhere.


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#136 11clock

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:24 PM

 

Bad luck when YYG put the YYC on sale two months ago? That was the only reason why my friend bought it; it was on sale. Putting something on sale, then almost immediately making it useless is horrible marketing.

I believe they did the same with GameMaker HTML5 then a few weeks later Announcing GM:Studio with html5 support for about the same price. so there is precedence in the feeling of being cheated here.

 

 

They offered an upgrade path to Studio in that situation (and a proper upgrade path since Studio is all around better), and as I stated, an upgrade path or discount wouldn't fix the problem in the case of the YYC, so it should be approached differently than what was done with the HTML5 -> Studio method. I think a refund would be best.


Edited by 11clock, 13 October 2014 - 02:28 PM.

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#137 HHMedia

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:25 PM

I am a little confused . Maybe I'm just not reading it correctly . If I own the Android export module already , does that mean I get the YYC free for the Android module as of Nov 6th and if not , how exactly do I get the YYC for Android since I already own the module . Surely I wouldn't have to pay for the module again to get the YYC for just that module ? TIA Guys .


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#138 TsukaYuriko

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:28 PM

I am a little confused . Maybe I'm just not reading it correctly . If I own the Android export module already , does that mean I get the YYC free for the Android module as of Nov 6th and if not , how exactly do I get the YYC for Android since I already own the module . Surely I wouldn't have to pay for the module again to get the YYC for just that module ? TIA Guys .

Yes. From my understanding, if you own an iOS or Android export license, you will automatically get the respective compiler with an update. Everyone who uses GM:S technically "owns" a Windows export license as well since it's a base feature, so I assume it applies to that as well.


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#139 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:28 PM

Remember how YoYo kind of failed to market the YYC before it's release.

They kind of led us all to believe it was going to just be an update to GM's exports, and then they slapped a $300 price tag on it. And you know what, people still bought it. Even though SEVERAL people were upset by this, people who wanted it bought it.

 

Now that they ARE just making it an upgrade to GM's core engine, people are angry that they have spent money on it!

 

I am not saying the people who are angry are wrong, I side with them on this issue. I do understand both sides of the argument though.

 

I am a little biased also though, I was a bit perturbed at the original price, and am quite happy that I get the YYC for free!


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#140 Mornedil

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:28 PM

 

Anyone who has purchased Pro and a module or two, but now wishes to add more pays the price (literally) for failing to buy Master Collection in the first place.

That's the idea behind MC, really. It's not a maximum price cap, it's more like the limited time offer pre-order special. It's intended to reward the people who had faith in GM:S from the beginning... and as an added bonus, it serves as a maximum price cap for people who wish to buy more than a certain amount of modules. This is already extremely cooperative, why complain about such a great offer? The new full price for the software is around $2700 if my calculations are right - come on, you're saving roughly $1900 if you but MC at its current price! In fact, MC is about as expensive as Pro plus two modules is in the new price system.

 

Honestly, $2700 for all the services GM:S has to offer is an extreme overprice. The base software is still glitchy after all this time, and for only a fraction of that money I can buy a more reliable software with full 3D support.

 

Unity for example:

Unity pro 5x: $1500

Plus, all additional console exports YYG asks us for over $1000 are free of charge with unity.

 

I like game maker, and I use it because it has always been an affordable tool, but even though it is far from reaching the standards of other development tools, YYG have their heads in the clouds asking the customers for even more money than other software

I could instead buy Unity, AND have $1200 to spare.

 

So the logic that "When buying the master collection, you save $1900!!" is completely bogus for what YYG provides. It is rather "If you DON'T buy the master collection, you're gonna regret it forever because when adding the individual parts together this product is overpriced three times over!"


Edited by Pandaboy, 13 October 2014 - 02:40 PM.

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#141 11clock

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:36 PM

Remember how YoYo kind of failed to market the YYC before it's release.

They kind of led us all to believe it was going to just be an update to GM's exports, and then they slapped a $300 price tag on it. And you know what, people still bought it. Even though SEVERAL people were upset by this, people who wanted it bought it.

 

Now that they ARE just making it an upgrade to GM's core engine, people are angry that they have spent money on it!

 

I am not saying the people who are angry are wrong, I side with them on this issue. I do understand both sides of the argument though.

 

I am a little biased also though, I was a bit perturbed at the original price, and am quite happy that I get the YYC for free!

 

I was one of those people who was completely against the YYC having a price tag when it was announced. I'm glad that YYG is now doing what they should of done in the first place, but their timing is awful and is screwing people over.


Edited by 11clock, 13 October 2014 - 02:37 PM.

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#142 tsa05

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:49 PM

@TsukaYuriko: What's this about starting a flame war? I popped into this topic about the new pricing to let folks know that at the present time there is no upgrade path to MC. I added the factual observation that if anyone purchased Pro + some bundles, they must now re-purchase the whole package in order to get MC. 

 

With the way pricing works now, if any of us purchased half of the YYG products and want the other half, it is "cheaper" to re-purchase the whole set than it is to purchase the remaining half...but that involves paying a "discounted" price on things we already bought in order to get a discount on the rest.

 

This is merely an observation of a peculiarity in GM's current pricing model. It's good business for YYG, and I understand that you, as a current proud owner of MC, do not see any problem with it. I hope that you understand, in return, that I (an 11 year GameMaker customer) would prefer to see it done differently. It's just an opinion.

 

I don't entirely understand your assertion that stating my opinion is "useless." This is a discussion forum--why are we here, and why is there a topic about pricing? Furthermore, I had not yet seen any post in this topic discussing the specific aspect of pricing that I brought up, leading me to feel that it would be a valuable addition to the conversation.

 

Apologies for upsetting you.


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#143 TsukaYuriko

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 02:51 PM

So the logic that "When buying the master collection, you save $1900!!" is completely bogus for what YYG provides. It is rather "If you DON'T buy the master collection, you're gonna regret it forever because when adding the individual parts together this product is overpriced three times over!"

...and this is the reason why there's a Master Collection. GM:S Pro is not the "I don't have the money for MC so I'll buy the software in pieces" version, it's intended for people who only need a certain amount of export modules. If you need more modules than MC is worth, you're supposed to buy MC from the beginning - if you fail to do that, there's not much YoYo can do for you. As you have successfully noticed, paying the full price for all modules would be ridiculously expensive, and this is what people have to keep in mind when buying Pro.

 

It has been stressed by YoYo before that whether to buy Pro plus modules or Master Collection is a pure business decision before, and if you have trouble deciding whether you absolutely need MC, chances are high you don't need it (yet). You can't really say that you wasted money because you couldn't buy something you didn't need at that point in time... because if you really need something, it's worth its price, whatever it may be. Anything else is just you trying to get something as cheap as possible, and if you end up paying more money due to eventual price increases because you refused a special offer which would have let you save money... that's life. Bad timing.

 

Besides that, everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that there have been Pro -> MC upgrade special offers, so the "you're gonna regret it forever" argument is actually the invalid one here. YoYo has been extremely cooperative in this aspect in the past, yet the only thing people seem to recognize them for is when they dare to not make an all-encompassing special offer that only really results in them losing money. They are a company, not a charity. They are not in any way obliged to throw free stuff at you, and you should be more grateful about the offers they already have going on. :whistle:

 

@tsa05: The flamewar line wasn't directed at you. It was directed at all those people who keep complaining about having been ripped off (and making it sound like this is a fact!) due to the changes to YYC, even after Nocturne has clearly stated that he made YoYo officials aware of the issue. It's not the opinions about this that are useless, but rather the constant debate about how unfair YoYo is and how they're ripping everyone off when nobody really knows what they had in mind when they planned this change, as chances are that it's all just a big misunderstanding. I find it unfair towards YoYo that everyone is complaining about being ripped off by them when absolutely no YoYo employee has given an official statement yet, that's all.


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#144 Mornedil

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:10 PM

...and this is the reason why there's a Master Collection. GM:S Pro is not the "I don't have the money for MC so I'll buy the software in pieces" version, it's intended for people who only need a certain amount of export modules. If you need more modules than MC is worth, you're supposed to buy MC from the beginning - if you fail to do that, there's not much YoYo can do for you. As you have successfully noticed, paying the full price for all modules would be ridiculously expensive, and this is what people have to keep in mind when buying Pro.

 
Of course there is something YYG can do about it. They can award you with a MC licence if you have paid a total of $799 when adding up all your purchases. Instead, they now have people who have bought 1 or 2 modules and refuse to buy anymore because it's a waste of money.
Not everyone can afford $799 at once, and they are basically being punished in the long run by not ever having the ability to upgrade to MC without throwing their old licences in the garbage can.
 

Besides that, everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that there have been Pro -> MC upgrade special offers, so the "you're gonna regret it forever" argument is actually the invalid one here. YoYo has been extremely cooperative in this aspect in the past, yet the only thing people seem to recognize them for is when they dare to not make an all-encompassing special offer that only really results in them losing money. They are a company, not a charity. They are not in any way obliged to throw free stuff at you, and you should be more grateful about the offers they already have going on.


The ability to upgrade your current licences to an MC licence should be permanent when you think about the quality of GM:S MC and it's price, compared to other development software's quality and it's price. GM:S doesn't have the same quality, and YYG should not expect anyone to pay more than $799 total (again, compared to other software).

I did see one of those offers a long time ago where you could pay the difference of what you had previously paid and the price of MC.. But that is still a huge amount of money (especially for students), and a lot of people people can't just throw 300-400 dollars at a company at any given opportunity.

 

... But this is now kind of derailing the original topic :P.. I just don't see how people reason when they say the master collection saves you that much, because the total price of the individual components is silly overpriced, and not to mention how strange the pricing model of GM:S and it's components is.


Edited by Pandaboy, 13 October 2014 - 03:41 PM.

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#145 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:52 PM

I have a small question about the YYC itself, this seems like an appropriate topic.

 

Are servers written in GM that are compiled with the YYC better than servers currently built in the VM?

Does compilation affect Networking?

 

I know it's a bit nooby, but I have only done Networking in GM, so I have no idea.


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#146 TsukaYuriko

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:55 PM

Definitely better, but still not optimal. Why? Because every "game" made in GM:S requires a visible window. For a server application, that's rather impractical in terms of speed. I also imagine that it's impossible to run an application with a visible window as a service... but then again, I haven't really delved into that topic yet, so I might be wrong.

 

What YYC does speed up in a server program is the speed of function calls (at least slightly) and anything that isn't a default GM:S function. It doesn't speed up networking per se, as that still is mainly based on latency, bandwidth and other (hardware - that is, modem/router/ISP/etc.) factors. Buying YYC just to make your server applications more optimized is therefore more of a wet bandaid than a solution... you're still better off writing servers in C++/etc.


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#147 Mornedil

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:58 PM

Hmm. What if all drawing is turned off for that server window? Like, turn off the application surface, automatic drawing, etc.


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#148 TsukaYuriko

TsukaYuriko

    Remember... and never forget

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 04:00 PM

The window itself would still have to be drawn. The problem remains mostly the same.


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#149 rubenjavier

rubenjavier

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 04:11 PM

 .. And if it's true they had a sale 2 months ago, knowing they would soon remove the licence completely... Then... I honestly have no words for it... How can they justify that?

 

This thead is really making me sad.. Because I like YYG, I really do.. But their business decisions makes it impossible to respect or trust them :/

 

 

My feelings exactly right now... I also got the YYC on the sale, a sale of a license they were planing to nullify (until there is official word of something different)... how can an Indie Friendly (or any respectable company for that matter) can justify to sell something they are planing to void...

I like YYG, but this situation its just wrong...


Edited by rubenjavier, 13 October 2014 - 04:12 PM.

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#150 Lukan Spellweaver

Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 04:11 PM

Yeah, I've been learning Java Networking. I am not very good with Java, I always fall back into GM because it's easy and familiar.

I'll probably keep up with my Java Server studies then.

 

Thanks for answering! :D


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