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#51 ParodyKnaveBob

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 12:28 PM

Btw, after all this discussion, I see the overall wisdom of having only one all-encompassing theme. On the other hand, I can still see good and bad for one handicap vs. two -- but probably anything more than two would get into overkill. Nonetheless, the only thing "optional" about the handicap(s) and theme is that you can enter without using such; it's optional in that your entry is not required to use it; however, everyone here knows that not using ultimately counts against an entry, meaning that for it to rank highly, (nowadays, maybe even for it to rank more than halfway, although I haven't crunched any numbers on that,) it has to be the most super fantabulous 72-hour creation evar. And perhaps more importantly, it affects feedback an entry receives.

I just this moment realized something. When I entered Jam #3 years ago, it was really pushed and encouraged at the time for people to experiment and go outside their norms; afaik, this is still stated -- but is there any real way to acknowledge or reward this? I don't even mean, like, "there must be a prize trophy!" kind of reward. I just mean even something as small as a verbal acknowledgement -- officially or within people's feedback. This seems a lot less tangible than a "best of" or even a "favorite" reward/acknowledgement, though. I don't have an answer -- just a question. $:^ J

Regards, all,

Edited by ParodyKnaveBob, 09 June 2014 - 12:34 PM.

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#52 dadio

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 12:46 PM

I still think the 2 handicap thing is a good idea... (cos there are 3 "winners" with rewards rather than just 2)

 

1st place: Theme

2nd place: Handicap

3rd place: Handicap

 

It's important to remember that all these things are optional.

And I feel that following the Theme should be a lot more important than following the Handicap...

I'd be interested to give the 2 Handicap thing a try for just 1 Jam & see what happens...

(if it sucks we can always use the normal way for the Jam after that)

Some people can just use the Theme & ignore the Handicaps, some can use the Theme + 1 Handicap & some can use all 3.

In reality, it gives people *more* options / flexibility rather than less - if 1 Handicap is not to their tastes, they can ignore it & go with the other one.

And this option should be made clear in the OP of the Jam.

I honestly believe that it's the *Best Games* that tend to win the Jams anyway - not really how well they incorporated the Theme or Handicaps, but rather how well the game plays & feels... just my thoughts on that. *shrugs*


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#53 chance

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 02:09 PM

Awards for "best handicap"  only make sense if the handicap requires innovation.  A good example was the Jam #12 handicap "trains must appear in the game and affect the gameplay".  That encourages innovative design and deserves a "best of" award.

 

But the Jam#13 handicap does not:  "the graphics must be 2D".   That's not a challenge, so it's hard to distinguish the best use of handicap.


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#54 Alice

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 02:32 PM

@chance: Yup, that's also why I suggested merging "Best use of theme" and "Best use of handicap" into "Best use of conditions/constraints/whatever"; that way users will be able to reward creative combination of theme and handicap (I guess I'd give that to "Blind Memory" from the last Jam ;) ) while resorting to use of theme itself if handicap turns out to be pretty much binary (like 2D handicap and nearly as troublesome 5 sounds one); I'm not sure, but I guess "use of train" is one of the most creativity-allowing handicaps we will ever get.

@Snail_man: my was 2D-er! I would say it was even paper-thin!

Edited by Alice, 09 June 2014 - 02:34 PM.

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#55 chance

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 02:46 PM

@Snail_man: my was 2D-er! I would say it was even paper-thin!

 

My game was so thin... it only had one side:wink:

 

I agree with your comments, Alice.  Whether we ultimately establish awards for best handicap doesn't much matter to me.  But I hope we can improve our choice of handicap.


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#56 RekNepZ

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:41 PM

I actually liked having fewer entrants last time around. I found that having 70+ entries was super-stressful when it came to voting and I really liked how laid-back the voting in the last jam turned out to be.


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#57 the ch8t

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:15 AM

 

@Snail_man: my was 2D-er! I would say it was even paper-thin!

 

My game was so thin... it only had one side:wink:

 

 

Mine was the 2d-est becuase....

 

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        V


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#58 Alice

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:30 AM

Mine was the 2d-est becuase....
 
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bestTheme_13.png

Because it involved the fanciest usage of pirateness?
Just how are these related...? ^^"

Edited by Alice, 10 June 2014 - 12:32 AM.

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#59 the ch8t

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:39 AM

uh.............. i dunno. You got me on this one.

 

On to Jam suggestions. I..... don't actually have any suggestions right now.

 

But I do want to say this: I don't think third place is lonely. I mean, once third place get a standard reward, what is to stop us from feeling like fourth place is lonely. Then, what if fifth place gets lonely? I think the system works good as it is, that is:

 

First: Picks the theme (most important) and gets a banner

Second: Pick the handicap (less important) and gets a banner

Third: gets a banner.

 

The reason why I say that the handicap is less important is that the theme influences the type of the games, and it gives a cohesive feel to the jam. The handicap is more of a ridiculous rule to disable certain aspects of our programming ability.

 

Anyway, I think it's fine as it is.


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#60 Yal

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 04:35 PM

But I do want to say this: I don't think third place is lonely. I mean, once third place get a standard reward, what is to stop us from feeling like fourth place is lonely.

 

Because 4th place is nothing special, top 3 are.

 

The handicap is more of a ridiculous rule to disable certain aspects of our programming ability.

 

Objection! A good handicap disables a design. Since a complete game needs some design, disabling one [obvious] design forces people to use another [less obvious] design, resulting in more game diversity. The train handicap was actually kinda good in that aspect (forcing people to think "how the heck do I squeeze this game into my entry?!"), but a bit small and limited.


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#61 ParodyKnaveBob

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 06:28 PM

So many things on which to comment! I just wanted to pop in with this right now, though:

One example of a good negative handicap that generated creativity was the "no violence" one, right? (Especially since it hilariously coincided with the theme of "monsters," eh?)

 
Okay, I had some more time, so I wrote this up, too:

Newcomers. Ah yes, that seems to be a whole category of discussion by itself. Encouraging them to join -- and not scaring them off.

One thing that could be done: add a "NEW TO THIS?" header at the top of the Jam topic. Make it a short list of what the Jam is and is not. Include things like...
  • When you look past all the hype, it's not actually a hardcore competition.
  • You don't have to go solo -- join a team, whether planned or picked at random.
  • If you enter, you're almost guaranteed plenty of valuable feedback about things you're already doing well and ways you could seriously improve.
  • Through all the aforementioned means (and more), you'll get to know a lot of regulars and fellow newcomers -- a major highlight of these Jams is the camaraderie, the antics, the like-minded hectic push to make and share something in only one weekend
  • Seeking inspiration to make a game? Each Jam has its own theme and handicap -- picked by the winners of the previous Jam! ... Or, don't even use the theme and/or handicap at all, and just do your own thing. They're optional.
Y'know, something like that, but probably more concise and impactful. (I was just flinging words on the page here -- not trying to craft much of anything.)

Also, like Snail_Man said, an official "Best Newcomer" mention is a good idea for incentive (and just good ol' plain fun novelty) -- and in his bringing up that Rusty old award ($;^ P), the Mollusk makes a good point that choosing would be a very simple matter of finding the highest-ranking newcomer's entry. However, there are logistics to iron out:
  • What kind of newcomer? New to the GMC? New to the Jam? New to publishing any game? New to publishing any game on the GMC (not to mention elsewhere with YYG)? New to other?
  • What constitutes a newcomer? New since the last Jam? New since a year ago? New since other?
  • What qualifies such a newcomer? Only a solo entrant? Team entrant allowed only if the team is made of fellow newcomers? Team entrant allowed if only X person(s) on team are or are not newcomers? Other?
  • Maybe more. Add other issues as you think of 'em. $;^ J
Regards,

Edited by ParodyKnaveBob, 11 June 2014 - 04:04 AM.

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#62 The M

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:38 PM

A relatively easy way to make handicaps easier to judge could be by encouraging the ones who choose them to make them more general. For example, instead of having "You must have at least five different sounds." you could make it "You must have as many different sounds as possible". This way you can compare how well games implements the handicap. Of course, having a limiting handicap that encourages creativity would be just as good (or better) but at least there won't be a yes/no handicap. Alternately you could combine them: "You must have as many different sounds as possible but at least five". Just a thought...


Edited by The M, 11 June 2014 - 12:38 PM.

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#63 chance

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 01:05 PM

However, there are logistics to iron out:

  • What kind of newcomer? New to the GMC? New to the Jam? New to publishing any game? New to publishing any game on the GMC (not to mention elsewhere with YYG)? New to other?
  • What constitutes a newcomer? New since the last Jam? New since a year ago? New since other?
  • What qualifies such a newcomer? Only a solo entrant? Team entrant allowed only if the team is made of fellow newcomers? Team entrant allowed if only X person(s) on team are or are not newcomers? Other?

(emphasis added)

 

Only one definition for newcomer makes sense -- and that's "new to the Jam", with his first Jam entry.  Past publishing history doesn't seem relevant.  (Not to mention unverifiable.)

 

And for practical reasons, newcomer awards should only go to solo entries, not teams.  Otherwise, we can't really judge his contribution.


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#64 ParodyKnaveBob

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 06:27 PM

What qualifies such a newcomer? Only a solo entrant? Team entrant allowed only if the team is made of fellow newcomers? Team entrant allowed if only X person(s) on team are or are not newcomers? Other?

And for practical reasons, newcomer awards should only go to solo entries, not teams.  Otherwise, we can't really judge his contribution.

Note, however, that in a three-person team made completely of newcomers, whatever each person's amount of actual contribution, it was the team that entered the game -- and so in this case, the team could get the "Best Newcomer" award; this would list the whole, and each individual on the team could hold up their shiny award (even if it's merely fact-written-in-text-with-link-to-Jam-post -- happily displayed in their signatures perhaps).
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#65 ParodyKnaveBob

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 03:15 AM

There has been a lot said about improving handicaps. Now four more halfpence worth. I want to make it short, but I'm kind of thinking out loud here, so we'll see how that goes...

The handicap is up to individual rewardee. That's pretty cool. A person can use this to one's advantage (e.g. "I think 3D games get a major advantage over 2D games, and I can only make 2D games myself, thus I'll make the handicap that all graphics must be 2D"); to try to push people to improve (e.g. "I think too many people skip out on sound, maybe figuring sound's not very important, thus I'll make the handicap that you must include at least five different sounds"); to give everyone some ridiculous challenge (e.g. "Trains! Everyone needs a train! Traintraintrain choo-choo!"); etc. Truly, I believe the freedom of the rewardee to come up with any handicap wanted (within reason) is what's most important: It is the person's prize after all -- and much like with the theme, no one's actually required to follow it in order to enter the Jam.

Some handicaps lend themselves better than others to a "best use of" category? Perhaps... Let's really examine this. One color, insert a train, at least five sounds, etc. Who's really to say one's Boolean and another's not?
  • "I made a game that only uses pictures so there'd be no text." "I made a game that speaks everything aloud so there'd be no text." "I made a game where every visual is presented by ASCII art so that all glyphs lose any textual meaning." Okay, two certainly met the handicap, and enough people believed the third met it well enough to win the "best use of" award. Boolean, true.
  • Does the game have an "Achievement" each for beating the first and last levels? Boolean, true. Does the game have 100 "Achievements" ranging from simple completions to difficult side-tasks, from tangential exploration to nonsensical glitch-exploiting? Boolean, true. Does the game have zero "Achievements" because the designer hates the modern Achievement convention, believing it to be a limiting boon on the player's imagination and sense of accomplishment and self-esteem? Boolean, false.
No matter how creatively (or not) a game uses (or abuses) a handicap, it's still Boolean in the end, either true or false. It used it or didn't. "Best use of" category? Yep, it's up to the players/reviewers/voters to decide this. Alice has said repeatedly that "at least five sounds" didn't lend itself well to deciding "best use of" -- and yet when she played one particular game, she found it the very obvious choice for that award. Okay then. If an entrant "scraped by" on the handicap and didn't ab/use it in some clever, notable way, then that entry doesn't receive the "best use of" award. Fortunately, whatever the handicap and whatever number the Jam, this particular bit of fun (handicapping) occurred because the Xth-placed winner selected something optional to handicap the designer's ability, and the designer went for it. ~shrug~ Yay, all around. $:^ J

Let's face it, the seeming favorite around here, "must include a train," didn't have to see anything creative. Everyone could've shoved a train in a background somewhere and moved on. Likewise, a recent handicap being complained about somewhat, "must include at least five different sounds," could've sparked something major. Everyone could've pumped multiple music tracks into each screen, incorporated voice acting with every selection and action, etc. Ha, you could've had someone attempt a ridiculous hack by making an entirely silent game with very specific onomatopoeia everywhere -- and maybe even have characters make mention of hearing this-or-that in the background. $:^ b

My opinion? I had been agreeing with others quite a bit concerning the desire to improve handicaps until I really tried to put my thoughts down on digital paper here. But no. I now believe it's actually a fine system exactly as it is. A person is given a prize to handicap the next Jam; that person can decide why one wants a handicap and therefore what kind of handicap to make (and certainly there's nothing limiting the person from getting suggestions/ideas online or offline, although asking on the GMC might not be the best idea); then, the actual results rely on each Jammer to either ignore it, squeak by with it, embrace it as fully as possible, hack it all up and down, etc.

It's true, some handicaps will affect more people than others -- "no violence" vs. "2D only" -- but whatever the rewardee wants. It's true, not every Jam will have a bunch of games in the running for the "Best Use of Handicap" -- but that's not necessary anyway, right? $:^ J If no one even wins that award for a Jam, then hey, ~shrug~ whatever, right? If anything, that'd be a hilarious part of that specific Jam to look back on. $:^ b "Oh man, Jam 19, where someone said 'game must have a protagonist' and everybody said, 'wha-?!' and nobody got the 'Best Use of Handicap' award, ha ha ha, good times." Etc. $:^ }

I believe I'm done for now. I hope I've given you something to chew on. If you spit anything back out, I just ask you don't aim at anyone here, thanks. $;^ ]

(edit: one typo, one point of clarity)

Regards,

Edited by ParodyKnaveBob, 15 June 2014 - 04:30 AM.

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#66 Yal

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 12:18 PM

Everyone could've shoved a train in a background somewhere and moved on.

No, (this is a bit of a nitpick) since the theme stated that the train must affect the gameplay. Several games made the entire premise be about trains, such as Candy Land Trains where you manage a train station to keep passengers from being angry or 7R41N where you control a train. Others just used trains as an obstacle (TheSnidr, that pear avatar guy, me).


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#67 ParodyKnaveBob

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 04:36 PM

Everyone could've shoved a train in a background somewhere and moved on.

No, (this is a bit of a nitpick) since the theme stated that the train must affect the gameplay. Several games made the entire premise be about trains, such as Candy Land Trains where you manage a train station to keep passengers from being angry or 7R41N where you control a train. Others just used trains as an obstacle (TheSnidr, that pear avatar guy, me).

Ah, my mistake. ~nod~ Thanks for correcting me. I should've looked at the exact handicap before writing my post: "Trains or locomotives must appear in the game at some time, and must affect the gameplay in some form."

That's more than just a nitpick. That's a real point. I'd totally forgotten why the trains had picked up so much momentum as to practically become a second theme. The handicap required the train to affect gameplay. That's a lot further reaching. In that case, just planting a train in a background somewhere wouldn't've met the challenge, no. However, I suppose it still could have been that everyone could have "just used trains as an obstacle."

I can see where that particular handicap pushed people harder just to meet the Boolean true or false. Nonetheless, I maintain that entrants can use any other given handicap in equally creative ways if they push themselves. $:^ )

Regards!
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#68 GameDevDan

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 01:30 PM

Updated the first post with the most common / most talked about / interesting ideas (though not in full, anyone wanting more depth can obviously read the entire topic lest the first post swallow the entire community).

 

I want to reply to some of these ideas in good detail, but since I'm at work at the moment I'll have to leave it. I'll try to post my thoughts on some of these ideas at the weekend. :)


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#69 chance

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 12:16 PM

Looking at our list, I'm not overly excited by any of them.  Some might be fun to try -- like "best newcomer".   And extending the voting period for Jams with lots of entries is a no-brainer.  But we don't need a "policy" for that, just competent leadership (which we have).

 

The alternate voting schemes don't seem justified, for the simple reason that the current voting scheme is successful, in my opinion.  I haven't seen evidence of unfair outcomes, or people manipulating the system.  And some of the proposed schemes aren't well thought out.  They could lead to results fewer people are happy with.

 

Perhaps the proponents of new voting schemes should test their ideas with the votes from previous Jams.  Demonstrate why they are better.  The voting topics are still there.


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#70 Simaster48

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 07:11 PM

As some of you have discussed earlier a hall of fame where old jam games can be found would be nice, especially when highligtning the games which are still being worked on.

It was discussed way back around the 2nd jam if I remember correctly and it was something i kept an eye out for until the 9th jam since I knew there were games I had missed and which I wanted to try out as well as seeing how they turned out after the jam.
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#71 GVmakesGames

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 09:46 PM

Yeah, a hall of fame would be a great thing, and I think it would even encourage newcomers to participate. I myself, if I had seen a "GMC jam hall of fame" the year I passed before joining the GMC, I would have joined only for the jam.

Also, the 1/rank voting system seems good, but the current one is well enough. I don't see the voting system change as a "must do". Sure, it'd be better, but it's not the most important part.
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#72 Yal

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 07:08 AM

Yeah, we've been talking about a hall-of-fame since the start, and... not here yet :(

 

I'd envision it as a locked topic with one post per jam (so each game can have a screenshot), with a brief description of each top-3 game [could be taken from the post where it was submitted to the jam] and links to the games' topics and/or downloads. The top post should contain links to all the other posts, and probably in reverse chronological order (jam 1 in the bottom, previous jam on top). And the first post could have a pompous banner with some greek columns and the letters "GMC JAM HALL OF GAME".

 

Sounds like a good idea?


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#73 Alice

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 07:38 AM

Come to think of it, the next Jam should be in 3 weeks, if I'm not mistaken...

I guess that's about time we would start actually deciding whether and how we would modify the rules, considering the Jam topic is just around the corner (and I suppose e.g. knowing whether there'll be constraint chosen by 3rd place till then would be useful).

--- EDIT ---

My opinions about particular suggestions:

General
  • Want :3 - Run a "review" jam after the game jam, where reviewers can get prizes (and then they vote in said topic for the eventual jam winner).
  • Would be nice - Encourage people to enter a lot longer before the start of the jam, with signature banners etc.
  • Would be nice - Create a jam "Hall of Fame" where the top X users from each jam are paraded around as encouragement to enter and win jams.
Participating
  • Wouldn't mind that - Time period: Change how long the jam runs for from 72 hours to something else (preferably longer) to encourage more players
Voting
  • Might be - Method: Use the 1/vote method, where users score points per voter equal to 1 divided by the position they came in the voter's list.
  • Might be - Method: Use modified instant run-off, where voting is carried out in rounds eliminating the worst entry in each round and handing their votes to the next preferred candidate left in the running.
  • Meh, probably not - Method: "group vote" http://gmc.yoyogames...24290&p=4581708
  • Would like - Method: Provide some method of balancing a voter's influence against the amount of games they actually played
  • Support (had hard time picking handicap alone) - Categories: Combine best use of theme & handicap into one thing
  • Support (had hard time picking devlog) - Categories: Scrap best devlog
  • Wouldn't mind - Categories: Best "out of the box" entry
  • Greatly support - Categories: Best "newcomer" - for people who haven't entered the jam before
  • Troublesome (requires voters to know/research previous entries for it to be reliable) - Categories: Most improved on previous entries
  • Support - Time: Make the voting period dependent on the number of games, not just 15 days as it usually is.
Prizes
  • Would like - Give third place a jam related prize, possibly picking a second handicap or otherwise game-affecting condition.
  • Wouldn't mind, but what? - Better incentives to offer community prizes

Edited by Alice, 05 July 2014 - 08:00 AM.

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#74 TerraFriedSheep

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 10:11 AM

Yeah, we've been talking about a hall-of-fame since the start, and... not here yet :(

 

I'd envision it as a locked topic with one post per jam (so each game can have a screenshot), with a brief description of each top-3 game [could be taken from the post where it was submitted to the jam] and links to the games' topics and/or downloads. The top post should contain links to all the other posts, and probably in reverse chronological order (jam 1 in the bottom, previous jam on top). And the first post could have a pompous banner with some greek columns and the letters "GMC JAM HALL OF GAME".

 

Sounds like a good idea?

 

I've actually been planning to put together a topic for probably a year or so now, as I have found myself in the situation before where I quickly want to go back to a past Jam, and ended up spending ages searching for a handicap or something...

 

So I've finally sat down and just compiled it- it took a while but I hope people find it useful! I will of course update it as and when is necessary!

 

The GMC Jam Facts, Stats and Hall of Fame Topic!


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#75 mr magnus

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 12:49 PM

That's awesome.

You might want to clean it up a bit and spoiler each section: perhaps add some screenshots if you can be bothered and glitter (just call out if you need help) but it is about time somebody actually did something instead of just discussing it. 

 

 

But Alice actually mentioned something I really really liked;
Voting for the most original/out of the box entry.
 

every jam we get at least one entry that is really strange or we have no idea how to categorize, perhaps it isn't a good or great game but the concept or idea is still really interesting. I'd have no problem with awarding the most original entry, and it would encourage people not to follow a standard norm.


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#76 Yal

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 09:56 AM

Cool topic! I was gonna Sticky it, but Nocturne was too fast. I do think the logo should be outside the spoiler, though.

 

- Better incentives to offer community prizes

 

An award for best community prize?

 

I really like the idea of a best out of the box award as well. (Or maybe it should be called most out of the box... is the emphasised part polish or originality?)


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#77 Lonewolff

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:03 AM

Man, is it that time allready? :)

When is the next jam?
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#78 GVmakesGames

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:17 AM

It should be the last weekend of July.

Which is... *opens calendar app*

25th-27th!

Edited by GVmakesGames, 07 July 2014 - 03:17 AM.

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#79 brainstorm

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 06:29 PM

 

  • Wouldn't mind that - Time period: Change how long the jam runs for from 72 hours to something else (preferably longer) to encourage more players

 

I just think that one of the most fun things of the GMC official Jams is that you must make a Game in only 72 hours. It's possible to make a good game in that time. For example, Flappy Birds was made in less than three days, and with it we can learn a lesson: small games can be awesome (I don't think that's awesome at all, but it have a lots of downloads). In conclusion, I think that GMC Official Jams are awesome for that time limit. And if some players don't participate on it, may they won't participate with a longer time limit.


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#80 TerraFriedSheep

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 07:38 PM

I also agree to keep a 72 hour time limit. If I can't find the time over a weekend there's no way I'll find the time during the week. Some of my better Jam creations have been made in much less than 3 full days, it's just a matter of finding the right inspiration with the theme. The 3 day limit means you have to act on that inspiration as soon as you get it, and it has brought out some interesting concepts.
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#81 chance

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 02:26 PM

The 3 day limit means you have to act on that inspiration as soon as you get it (snip)

 

Exactly.  And the short duration also limits the time spent on polish, which keeps the focus on the core idea.

 

Having more time would undoubtedly produce more polished games.  But if the spark of inspiration isn't there in (say) the first day or so, then having more time just puts lipstick on a pig.


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#82 Alice

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 05:29 PM

Welll... I guess I'd still prefer to have a "pig with lipstick on" rather than a "pig without lipstick", generally speaking. Especially if that "lipstick" would involve mute buttons. ;)
It's true that if game concept isn't enjoyable in the first place, then adding more polish won't help it too much. However, it's not likely to make it *worse*, either. Plus, if Jam lasted, say, 4 days instead of 3, participants have an additional day when the "spark of inspiration" might happen. So if some great idea occurred to a participant at the end of 2nd day, said participant could abandon it in favour of polishing up the current, not-so-fun-or-original-or-whatever idea in 3-days Jam format, but might find enough time and motivation to use it in 4-days case.

Also, "keeping the focus on the core idea" without any "polish" might backfire greatly, since some other games might happen to use not as fun idea, but having it much more polished. I checked again who won in 3 last Jams (thanks, Terra ;) ) and found that they're games that could hardly be called "unpolished". The thing is, the core idea plays an important role in game, but when it has no polish to support it (said polish also including bugfixes, making more convenient interface, maybe adding levels; while they might not affect core idea that much, they're crucial for experience), people will simply not vote for the game.

Note that I don't think longer Jam is inherently better, or even that it's very likely to turn out to be better than 3-days Jam. I just don't think that "keeping focus on the core idea" instead of "polish" is really that desirable; in fact, as a player, I consider polish to be quite important aspect as well - even the best idea can be completely devastated by bad controls, and even the best soundtrack can get tiring without any mute button. Or something.

~ Alice's crazy idea follows ~

Alternately, we might try experimenting with 3+1 days long Jam, where people would be required to send playable demo of their game until the third day ends (effectively guaranteeing that this game will participate), and then polish it during the fourth day, possibly taking players' feedback into account or not. In fact, if someone thinks their game is already good enough as it is, they might just skip the day altogether. What they can't do, however, is sending entirely different game as the "polished" game; core elements shown in demo should be present.

I think such "extended Jam" can be tried out during regular 3-days Jam, as more or less unofficial event; that way we might experiment without interfering with regular Jam too much, though I'd like if some relatively large group participated (around 10 people, maybe?), so that we could check whether that idea works and results in games that are way more enjoyable than their unpolished demos (I suppose it might work even better than typical 4-days Jam, because having some sort of demo until 3rd day means that GMC users can provide some useful feedback). Anyone would like to try? ^^"

I guess there's no harm in trying? That way we won't have THE WORST JAM EVER because of careless changing the game-creation period, while we can still try out some concept to check if it improves things or not...
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#83 GVmakesGames

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 05:44 PM

Yeah, I guess 72 hours are enough. The 3+1 days is a weird but good idea. But I'd prefer to stick to the current system.
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#84 chance

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 05:50 PM

Especially if that "lipstick" would involve mute buttons.  (snip)

 

I propose a new Jam rule:  All entries shall have mute buttons, henceforth known as Alice buttons.


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#85 Lukan Spellweaver

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 05:53 PM

Especially if that "lipstick" would involve mute buttons.  (snip)

 
I propose a new Jam rule:  All entries shall have mute buttons, henceforth known as Alice buttons.
I second this motion!
All in favour say aye!
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#86 GVmakesGames

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:11 PM

Aye!
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#87 mr magnus

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:12 PM

 

 

Especially if that "lipstick" would involve mute buttons.  (snip)

 
I propose a new Jam rule:  All entries shall have mute buttons, henceforth known as Alice buttons.
I second this motion!
All in favour say aye!

 

You know how hard it is to add in a mute button? There are at least... two functions and a bool variable involved. Ain't nobody go time for such high end expert coding.


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#88 nacho_chicken

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:14 PM

Seriously, who releases a game without volume control?

 

*hides old games*


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#89 smash ball

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:17 PM

 

 

I propose a new Jam rule:  All entries shall have mute buttons, henceforth known as Alice buttons.

(snip)

 

You know how hard it is to add in a mute button? There are at least... two functions and a bool variable involved. Ain't nobody go time for such high end expert coding.

 

There are more functions than that if you want to support the old and new audio system.


Edited by smash ball, 09 July 2014 - 06:17 PM.

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#90 GVmakesGames

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 10:50 PM

Out of curiosity: who will choose the new theme/handicap?

I still haven't understood this part off the rules: who chooses next jam's theme and handicap? First and second places?
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#91 the ch8t

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 10:55 PM

Out of curiosity: who will choose the new theme/handicap?

I still haven't understood this part off the rules: who chooses next jam's theme and handicap? First and second places?

 

Yes, given that their games follow the theme/handicap.


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#92 GVmakesGames

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 12:33 AM

So ake will choose the theme and DetectivePixel the handicap...

Wait a second, I still haven't sent my prize to the top-ten! Gonna do it in the morning...

Oh God, I'm so... I'm so sorry guys! I had totally forgot!

Edit: but I won't be able to give the top3 my source code, because... Well, I did nothing that jam... (=x_x=)

Edited by GVmakesGames, 10 July 2014 - 12:35 AM.

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#93 Yal

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 07:30 PM

Another idea might be to have the entire week after the Jam starts as a "polish period" (so you can sleep a bit after the 72-hour chaos control session), and then (after 3+4 days) a topic is opened called the Post-Jam Topic where you can showcase your entry and how much you managed to polish this during this period. (Entries are encouraged to have the original download link so players can compare).

 

The main issue with this is people possibly getting biased by the polished version when doing the judging/voting, though. I can't come up with a good way of preventing that, but we could always put up big notices about "please don't download anything from this topic if you're going to vote!" and hope it works.

 

Or... put a "secret number" TXT file in the ZIP and only count votes if the voter includes the secret number in his/her post, to ensure everyone downloads the ZIP and uses that. :P


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#94 TerraFriedSheep

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 09:44 PM

<snip> 
The main issue with this is people possibly getting biased by the polished version when doing the judging/voting, though.<snip>


I agree, it will be difficult to stop people voting based upon the more polished games, and we would be in danger of the worthy winner of the Jam not winning. Not only that, but we might find many voters spending a week where they would normally be playing the Jam entries and leaving feedback working on polishing their game.

I personally feel we should have one time limit, and vote on the games made only within that time limit. If people really wanted a post-Jam polish Jam I think having a deadline 1 month after the Jam would be better, so that the actual Jam is tied up and the winners announced and credited for their work within the time limit.

Having a designated time limit 1 month after the Jam would have the following benefits (I've only just thought of this after reading your post and am not really suggesting it should happen, just throwing the idea around):
- The Jam doesn't get forgotten behind immediate post-Jam events.
- The time immediately after the Jam is used for leaving feedback and voting (the feedback arguably the most important part of the Jam for everyone involved).
- There would still be enough time after voting for entrants to work on polishing their game.
- Hardcore Jammers could be Jamming for over a month at a time.
- We might see many more Jam games with good potential / interesting ideas come into fruition.

And while I'm at it, some quick fire negatives to my idea:
- A large amount of people may lose interest.
- People may still be tempted to work on their game as opposed to leaving feedback and voting.
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#95 GVmakesGames

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 09:53 PM

Aaand my post didn't appear...

Well, basically I said what TFS said about your "post-jam jam".
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#96 the ch8t

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 11:39 PM

what if we just had a "how is your jam game now?" topic where everyone posted an updated version? Limit one post per person and have discussion still occur in the jam discussion topic. Have the topic close when the next discussion topic opens.

 

just an idea.


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#97 GVmakesGames

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 11:51 PM

I don't think all this afterjam ideas are that good.

I mean, yes, I'd like to have a topic where to post different updates after the official jam version, but this would be bad in the case of people updating their game from older jams: for example, I'm still working, now and then, to Captain John, the game I made for Jam #13.

Maybe we should stick with having our normal jam posts and, in them, a link to an "afterjam" topic for the game.

Everything would be much easier with a sub forum for the jam games, tho... But that would be more subforums, more moderation and generally more user crappyness. I don't think it's a possible idea.

Or maybe an after jam topic where there's a frame of time to post a game's post (and discussion posts are automatically deleted/moved to the end) and after that, people can discuss the games and effectively update their post. But this would be extremely messy. If a guy tries to send a bug report and he doesn't remember to write for what game...

Whaddya think? For now, I'd stay as we are, or if really we had to change, I'd make a new subforum/section explicitly for jam games.
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#98 mr magnus

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 12:11 AM

I'm working to improve my last Jam game, and I'd like to be able to showcase it in a topic on it's own, but come on: Do we really need to extend a competition that already takes up 1/3 of our year ( 4 * (2 week prehype + 3 day Jam + 2 week voting, not including the afterjam discussion) = 4 months out of 12)?

I'd just let those that did polish the games polish them in their own time under their own motivation and own will. They don't need a special "polishing jam", they can use the three months until the next jam and then show the polished version off when the next Jam starts hyping up. Occam's Razor applies here as in everything. The simplest version of something that still does everything that it is intended to is the best version.


Adding an official polish period is just over complicating a simple thing that does not need any amending.


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#99 GVmakesGames

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 01:18 AM

You took 1/3 of your year to calculate that the other 2/3 would have been of jam?
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#100 chance

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 10:34 AM

what if we just had a "how is your jam game now?" topic where everyone posted an updated version? Limit one post per person and have discussion still occur in the jam discussion topic. Have the topic close when the next discussion topic opens.

 

If people continue work on their Jam creations, I'd rather they create a WIP or Creations topic to discuss it.   Many people already create topics there during the Jam itself.

 

Having a separate discussion here just duplicates another part of the forum.


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