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Protection issues - Crashes and Skulls.


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#1 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:01 PM

So, to keep you updated, we’ve ruled out the updater, but are currently removing this particular check just in case. We’re still not 100% certain why it’s effecting some users, but it may be that checks are failing because a virus scanner or something is getting in the way, so we’re trying to accommodate this.

I totally understand that those who have paid for GameMaker and are getting this are feeling very upset by the whole matter, and I can only apologise for the problems. As to why it’s in there should be reasonably clear. GameMaker has traditionally been one of the most pirated programs around, and it’s simply not right that some pay good money for it, while others simply pirate it. We try hard to make it as smooth an experience as possible for paying users, but are constantly fighting pirates understanding of the protection systems.

We’d LOVE to be able to remove the protection completely, but we know that vast numbers would simply copy it if it was that easy. There are many levels to the current protection system, and while many are visible like this, there are also many hidden so that we can always tell when a final game was created with a crack.

We expect an update to go out tomorrow to remove this protection, and will move away from the “destructive” protection like this, to more passive methods to help protect innocent users who through no fault of their own, somehow trigger it.

As to why we don’t just switch into FREE mode, this is because crackers can simply activate features while the program is running, so doing this serves no purpose other than to annoy paying customers.


We're obviously well aware of this issue, so I'll close the other threads and you can feel free to attach yourself to this one. We'll keep you updated as things develop, and assure you we are working to get a new version out to you as soon as we can.
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#2 FX62

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:25 PM

Sadly Mike, it will be a never ending cycle. I've spent hundreds of dollars on DRM protection and no matter how many times it's updated, it's cracked in no time anyway. I changed my methods about five years ago to demo/full version with one specific method of DRM and left it at that. I found I was spending so much time trying to prevent the pirating I didn't have much time to actually work on the product(s). This issue has been a long standing argument among Indie developers and many have taken the same course I have. I'm not saying by any means that YoYo should, but it's a shame that the various DRM systems you have in place take so much time away from product development. Maybe I'm wrong and you have a dedicated team section dealing with this issue and I certainly don't wish to discuss specific methods in an open thread. Regardless, I look forward to the new version in the future and for now I'll remain at 622 since it seems to be the most stable at this point for me.
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#3 Mr. RPG

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:51 PM

I haven't had any problems and have never seen this infamous "skull" issue yet.

I completely support most methods to combat piracy. I really hate piracy because God forbid, if I don't buy that next module or that next iteration of GameMaker, Mike or Russell won't be able to feed themselves and I won't let that happen. Posted Image

I actually know of people who believe in the notion that software should always be free, it is really staggering that these are their excuses to pirate.
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#4 Mailas

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:56 PM

Does the crashing refer to the skulls/pirated issue?
Or is this crashing a totally different issue?
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#5 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:03 PM

Yes, we know it's an ever ending cycle. You can never "beat" pirates, but you can make it too annoying for them to bother. The more copies "fail" occasionally, the more will give up and just buy it.

A certain number will NEVER buy - EVER! These folks are basically crooks, and you can not count these as lost sales. No matter how "cheap" you make it, some will simply never buy. A good case in point is the current sale. for $50, you can get pro+html5. This means your getting a massive 75% off, and Pro for $25 (about £15). This is incredibly cheap, yet I know lots of them will keep just stealing if they possibly can.

We simply don't care about them, but if I can piss them off, I will.

At the same time, there are some who simply can't afford it, and we want to encourage them to buy whenever possible. Sales like the current one (and I'm sure future ones) are a great chance for these folk to get on the ladder (as it were), but I realise some will simply never manage. I hold nothing against folk like this. Cheap for us, is not cheap for everyone.

Then there are the last load, who will copy because it's easy, so why bother buying. These are the ones who WILL buy, if they get annoyed enough with cracks that don't work correctly, or when they realise they can't release anything without being found out - because yes... we KNOW what games are created with cracks. So these are mainly the ones we look to convert with things like this. These and the previous group are the ones we care about. Those who never buy, will copy stuff mainly to just to say they "have it", and won't usually do anything with it (although some might). But these other 2 groups, are the ones who would like to do something, and we'd like them to buy where ever possible.

For those who can't afford it. We have a free version, and if coded correctly, you can make anything. We've left in specific "gaps" to allow you to do some large projects if you try.We also have Standard, which we let you upgrade to Pro for the difference in price. We might try and do more later, but this is the best we can do for now.

For those who CAN afford it, but find it just as easy to copy it. Well, rest assured, we know the games which get made, and if something does well.... I'm sure we'll be in touch. :whistle:

I understand crackers doing it too. It's a challenge, and it's fun. Also the praise you get form folk wanting to use it, can be somewhat intoxicating. Being told by so many that your amazing or awesome, is always a great feeling. I have respect for those that crack it, and don't release it, and even for those that crack it, but "mark" the result in some way to make it obvious the user used a crack. This lets folk try it, but they know they can't truly use it. But these crackers are rare, which is a shame.

So yes.... we can never "win". Hardware dongles can be cracked and removed, all software can be "fixed". Only "online" can reduce piracy properly, and even that can be removed by some dedicated hacker. That said, the more the world moves online, the easier it gets to block, but we're not there yet, so we do what we can.

I said it before. If I could remove the DRM and know we'd get the same or more sales, I'd do it in a heart beat. I have HUGE respect for those that provide totally DRM free software, but for now, GameMaker is simply pirated too much.

I'm rambling now... Well... when I say NOW... I mean I have been for some time. :turned:
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#6 icuurd12b42

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:55 PM

Here's an idea, make the program compile the code on your server. Minimal amount of data passed back and forth, source code send, compiled on the server, byte code received, merge the compiled code with the large resources locally to make the exe, done. Protection from crackers is guaranteed at least for preventing people from making programs with a cracked product. You could even come up with a business model based on programs created with GM... Say 5$ a compile or something (no bashing the over-simplified model please)

I also have a method for protecting the development tool if you want to know it, PM me. From this experiment, I'm gather there is someone at yoyo that is interested on the subject of piracy protection.
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#7 Futhark

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:25 AM

Here's an idea, make the program compile the code on your server...


Here I am assuming you're referring to the YoYoGames server.

This is a terrible idea when it comes to those of us who don't have a dedicated internet connection. Every once in a while I have to DL the license file, and so far that has worked well, even though at first I was hoping I wouldn't have to do that. This means I have to make a specific trip in to town to DL this file. Fine, I can live with that.

But then I've heard comments on here similar to this one, I paraphrase it very loosely:
"If you're serious about making games, then blah-dee-blah-blah [i.e. then you should also be serious about your internet connection]."

And no, that comment does not apply to some of us who are out of reach of conventional internet connections, living in a deep valley without cable internet or stable satellite or other over-the-air connection.

And aside from that, there are still large populations on this planet who pay heavily for each meg downloaded/uploaded. Cable-or-other-high-speed internet connection is a privilege, which sadly, is taken for granted by too many people both in the USA and Europe (and elsewhere, I assume but I've mainly had experience with those two).

Anywho, just my two pennies on that particular thought.
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#8 icuurd12b42

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:51 AM

...dedicated connection


Note that I implicitly stated code compilation, expressing only the code would be sent to the server... About 200K of text (your code), coming back as byte code (smaller than source) to be build into the exe with the local resources (Megabytes stay local). Even a dialup connection can handle that.

And it would only do this when you make an exe

>>This means I have to make a specific trip in to town to DL this file. Fine, I can live with that.

That is sad. Do you not have at least a 56Kb modem access from home? Like we did in the 80's. 200K source + 75K return would take 45 seconds to transmit and receive.

[edit]
Wait a minute... you are online now? Do you have to drive to town for that?
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#9 Futhark

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:06 AM

...Do you not have at least a 56Kb modem access from home?...


No landline at home. Have a cellphone with an awful connection at home but fine in town/elsewhere.

...Wait a minute... you are online now? Do you have to drive to town for that?


Online at work :thumbsup:/> (And no, I'm not installing GM at work! :P/> :laugh:/> )
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#10 angryempath

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:28 AM

I'm licensed for Studio with Android/HTML5 plugins, running Norton Security Suite, if this helps with fixing this problem at all.

Edited by angryempath, 27 November 2012 - 02:28 AM.

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#11 Andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:55 AM

DRM, is tolerable. DRM, that can potentially destroy a legitimate user’s hard work, is intolerable. Please, think of your customers, take this it out or change it. I am sure you can come up with something less destructive. :thumbsup:
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#12 Big J

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:19 AM

If you're going to continue pointlessly putting DRM in GM:S, at least make it funny. Have it pop up a big troll face or something when it detects a pirated copy.
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Edited by Big J, 27 November 2012 - 06:20 AM.

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#13 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:38 AM

We have considered a lot of these options, and I agree with Futhark, the world isn't quite there yet. Perhaps as an option in the future or something, but not yet.

This protection has been in for some time, and does help keep pirates busy trying to figure out how to remove it, but I also agree it's unacceptable that it's effecting paying users - which is why this particular check is being removed just now.

If I thought for one minute we were going to effect customers, I'd never have put it in. Something we simply didn't expect has been happening on end users machines, and while we think we now know, again, I agree, customers should never - ever - be effected by it.

Of course, how I feel about effecting pirates project files is less...err... clear. :rolleyes:

Remember the goal is to drive pirates to buy, and if they think a copy will destroy their game, that's a pretty strong incentive. However, we'll make sure our concern for paying customers now takes precedence over trying to force a sale from a pirate - which will probably not happen anyway.

We've become blinkered a little in trying to stay one step ahead, and for that I totally apologise, there are certainly other ways of doing this.
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#14 guitarman4545

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:35 AM

So, is there an official fix or update for this yet? Or is the uninstalling and deleting appdata files the official method?
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#15 johanvinet

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:05 PM

I have the "Skull-Thing Bug". If it can help: I used (and bought) GM8 studio on a virtualized XP (using VMWare Fusion on OSX). No Antivirus at all. It worked fine till today. :(
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#16 Robto

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:31 PM

The 'solution' didnt work for me. Also, the instructions are crap. DO i or DO I NOT upgrade to 1.1.676 from 1.1.666 (what's in a number)?
Would be nice to get a official solution rather then a discussion on the importance of DRM!! :excl:/>

Oh, and I'm running WIndows 8 with version 1.1.666 after fresh intstall (and the folder/registry cleanup) and I still have the S & B's in my sprites.

Edited by Robto, 27 November 2012 - 02:33 PM.

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#17 plural

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:38 PM

My issues seem pretty much the same as the one described in this thread. I just bought the pro/html5 sale on Steam a few hours ago and it consistently crashes whenever the game is tested regularly or in debug mode after a minute or so of using either option. I had been using the free Studio for the past few days and it was working fine. I had Steam in offline mode until I bought the Pro version and I didn't pay attention to the version number so I'm not sure what version it was running when it was functional but now it's upgraded to 1.1.676.
I tested it running Steam in both offline and online modes and it crashes the same.
I'm using Windows 7.
I have tried deleting Game Maker through Steam and redownloading/installing it but that didn't change anything.
I have not tried deleting the appdata and reinstalling; I'll try that next and update this post if it made any difference.

Also, probably unrelated, but a few days ago it did give me the skulls using the free Studio version on Steam but it only happened once and thankfully I didn't save.

Finally and almost completely unrelated but I really feel you should know that the way Game Maker Studio is sold on Steam, if the software is uninstalled (delete local files) from Steam, like I just did, then it is wholly removed from your Steam library. I think it's because everything you buy is DLC for the free product but that was disconcerting to me but re-downloading the free version put it back in my Steam library. I'm sure it's not your fault but it's probably something you'd want to change or get Steam to fix as I can see a lot of complaints coming from that.

EDIT:
It still crashed for me but it took quite a bit longer this time... so... progress? Anyway, I'll wait for the update.

Edited by plural, 27 November 2012 - 03:02 PM.

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#18 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:36 PM

We're currently testing the new version. There's obviously lots more in it than just this fix, so it's going through normal testing just now.

@Steam: yes... the free one is actually the ONLY download, and it's all unlocked digitally once it's run.
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#19 trekkie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:41 PM

god dammit , really wish i had been on the forums before updating, planning showing off something i made in GM studio tomorrow , and now have
skull all over my screen. hope the fix comes soon.
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#20 banov

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:44 PM

Can we get an estimate of when the new update gets pushed to us?
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#21 Mr. RPG

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:55 PM

Mike said today, but there wcould be delays.
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#22 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:25 PM

currently testing..... shouldn't be long now - fingers crossed this end! :sweat:
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#23 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:49 PM

Update is now out.
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#24 Robto

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:09 PM

Great job! Thanks
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#25 Danielzxzx

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:27 AM

Haven't experienced any crashes with this new version. Thank you!
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#26 Debels

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:37 AM

No skulls on my sprites now :D, but now i can't test my games on android, maybe it has something to do with today's update?
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#27 Andy

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:47 AM

We have considered a lot of these options, and I agree with Futhark, the world isn't quite there yet. Perhaps as an option in the future or something, but not yet.

This protection has been in for some time, and does help keep pirates busy trying to figure out how to remove it, but I also agree it's unacceptable that it's effecting paying users - which is why this particular check is being removed just now.

If I thought for one minute we were going to effect customers, I'd never have put it in. Something we simply didn't expect has been happening on end users machines, and while we think we now know, again, I agree, customers should never - ever - be effected by it.

Of course, how I feel about effecting pirates project files is less...err... clear. :rolleyes:/>

Remember the goal is to drive pirates to buy, and if they think a copy will destroy their game, that's a pretty strong incentive. However, we'll make sure our concern for paying customers now takes precedence over trying to force a sale from a pirate - which will probably not happen anyway.

We've become blinkered a little in trying to stay one step ahead, and for that I totally apologise, there are certainly other ways of doing this.

I am glad, you have decided to take out this type of DRM Mike, thank you.
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#28 daspirit

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:56 AM

I'm glad that the skull glitch has been fixed. It hasn't happened to me, but it happened to my friend whom I personally bought GM:Studio for. Our whole team shares files with Dropbox and it was only a matter of time before we noticed those weird skulls popping up.

If anyone is smart, they would make constant backups of their project files. Thankfully, my team has assigned days where each person updates the folder. Just had to replace the sprite directory with a simply copy and paste. It should not have set back too many people.

I hope you guys can find a better way to detect actual pirated copies. I figure it's tough to be a starting business as yourself, that's always the hardest obstacle for any company.
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#29 score_under

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:12 AM

Mike, why did you assume that people capable of enabling [not-]paid-for features in GMS would not be capable of disabling this one?

I'm not majoring in Law so I wouldn't know, but isn't targeting and destroying someone's data (in a malicious manner identical to that of a virus) of questionable legality at best? Regardless of whether or not the victim is committing a crime?

if they think a copy will destroy their game, that's a pretty strong incentive.

Here you have even stated that destroying data is the intent of this feature.
From what UK law leads me* to understand, it's completely illegal "to impair [...] the reliability of any such data". http://www.legislati...k/ukpga/1990/18 section 3.2.c
*IANAL, and other countries will of course have (slightly) different laws

The point I am making is that not only is this (likely to be) illegal, but it is also one of these DRM problems that are less likely to affect pirates.

/minirant, got linked here by a friend and this is one of the few ways to really raise my ire.

As for a slightly more constructive and slightly less "oh god the horror" comment (relating to data recovery ;) ) -
I wonder how practical it would be to keep GM projects under version control... If the GM IDE ever got plugin support, this could become more feasible with simple(r-than-commandline) right-click menus for your favourite VCS.
Alternatively, the GM IDE could support silent compiling via command-line (errors going to stderr instead of GUI, etc.) and people could use custom GM IDEs, which would sidestep the problem of plugin systems altogether.

inb4 delete

Edited by score_under, 28 November 2012 - 05:17 AM.

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#30 greyzebra

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:28 AM

Just sharing here. For windows users who regularly updates, this november updates has the potential to kill your system. I know because it just killed mine, for the first time ever, and I have to do reinstall. So make sure your system works correctly before updating GMS.


http://pcsupport.abo...m#comment-32205
(see the comment section)

So this week, at least for me, is skull terror and failing windows week. Wow XD

Edited by greyzebra, 28 November 2012 - 05:30 AM.

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#31 chance

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:29 PM

If I thought for one minute we were going to effect customers, I'd never have put it in. Something we simply didn't expect has been happening on end users machines...

I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time. I mean, what could go wrong?

Anyway... looks like you fixed it. But you'll have to keep that "knuckle-head award" we gave you. :biggrin:/>

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#32 Katipo007

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:15 PM

hey this might not be related to any new antipiracy but, mods please look into this topic: Link

I'm pretty sure this is happening to some other users too
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#33 magus424

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:05 AM

I totally understand that those who have paid for GameMaker and are getting this are feeling very upset by the whole matter, and I can only apologise for the problems. As to why it’s in there should be reasonably clear. GameMaker has traditionally been one of the most pirated programs around, and it’s simply not right that some pay good money for it, while others simply pirate it.

And yet even GameMaker Studio has cracked versions available, so you've simply helped show that once again, DRM does not help anyone.

You've hurt legitimate purchasers of your program and done nothing to stop pirates, just like every DRM scheme ever created.
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#34 Passa

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:16 AM

Oh my god. I am just. I'm speechless. This is unbelievable. ALL MY SPRITES ARE RUINED. I bought HTML5, and immediately on Studio's release, purchased the full version with both Android and iOS modules.

I've dumped $500 into this program, and you setup some anti piracy **** that DESTROYS my assets? DESTROYS THEM? I don't understand WHY you would do this. I would undersdtand a bug that causes compiled applications to show skulls and crossbones, but DESTROYING MY GAME ASSETS?

I have a clean install of 1.1.666 that I installed after formatting to Windows 8. My copy is legitimate. You have SEVERELY DAMAGED MY PROJECT. I have backups, but I've made huge changes in the past two days. I was literally hours out of release, just working out the kinks with iAP. I now have ZERO CHANCE of releasing later tonight as planned, before I hit up a conference for the next four days.

This is unacceptable. There needs to be a full response from Yoyo about this. An email to purchasers (you have my email on record, since I'm a paying customer and all). I want to know how this happened, I want to know why this won't happen again, I want to know how I can most promptly fix my project. Is it just sprites that are affected or will there be other surprises my project YOU'VE destroyed. Removed bits of code? Changed variables around?

I'm just heartbroken. All my crunch time work in the last two days... wasted... way to treat your paying customers Yoyo....

EDIT: My quick look online indicates this is illegal, at least under Australian consumer protection law. I'll be following this up as far I have to. It's unacceptable when I buy something worth $5 at the supermarket and it has already gone off, it's quite a fair bit worse when my $500 product destroys the project I've spent a year working on.

EDIT 2: You know what really gets me? I've just read through this thread - it's the sheer arrogance of Yoyo Games in responding to this. Excuses about how it's the user's fault (you must all have viruses!) and then after failing to make it our fault, we get a series of excuses about piracy. You complain that GameMaker has always been pirated - yep, it has. It still is. So clearly your DRM DOESN'T WORK! That's the truly bizarre thing. All it does is hurt the real customers - people like me. The pirated versions remove the DRM. Their projects don't get ruined.

Let me tell you how you should be responding to this, to prevent your existing customers from telling others to not buy your product: apologise unreservedly. Explain why this happened, explain why it won't happen again. SOMETHING other than this smug "yeah but piracy, also it's probably your fault anyway" nonsense.

Edited by Passa, 29 November 2012 - 05:25 AM.

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#35 Arusiasotto

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:20 AM

It should just be your sprites. If you haven't altered those in the last two days, restore them from a backup. You do have a backup, right? However, if most of those two days of work were on sprites, my condolences.
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"It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter." - Nathaniel Borenstein

 

 

 


#36 Passa

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 07:54 AM

I had done tonnes of polish with the in-game resource editors since it was nearly finished. Fixed/created animations, colour adjustments, new assets for the menu system. Destroyed by YoYo Games.

The iAP system I had set up in my game was extremely cautious (a single iAP to unlock new modes), to ensure no one who had purchased my game would be ****ed over. Basic, no nonsense to ensure there wouldn't be problems. Stores the purchased variable without encryption or a checksum, no additional DRM. I even included a loophole where you could manually override the iAP requirement in case something goes horribly wrong with billing when communicating with Google and Apple's servers, so if people couldn't play their full version despite paying, I could let them know how to unlock the game anyway.

My 'DRM' was designed to not treat customers like pieces of dirt - and mine are only paying $0.99! YoYo's have paid up to $500 (like I have). The comparison of our two DRM systems, for me, sums it all up. YoYo doesn't get it. I'm upset the software even included a nuclear option like this at all. Can you imagine the outcry if Microsoft made pirated versions of Word delete all the Word documents on the affected computer? Even if it wasn't legitimate users affected (like with Studio), there would be an international outcry, government regulators would sue Microsoft into oblivion, they would be swamped by civil suits. YoYo will get away with this because their product has a much smaller user-base than Microsoft Word, but that doesn't make it any less wrong.

My faith in YoYo has been severely shattered today.

For those who CAN afford it, but find it just as easy to copy it. Well, rest assured, we know the games which get made, and if something does well.... I'm sure we'll be in touch. :whistle:


Umm. Mike. Are you telling me that all apps report back to YoYo? Is that what you're admitting here? That's far too intrusive DRM, my deployed apps shouldn't be sending data back to YoYo HQ so you can try cross reference if my app was compiled with a legit version.

Edited by Passa, 29 November 2012 - 09:12 AM.

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#37 Loopyluke

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:42 AM

This was a terrible idea... I have my laptop with me on holidays to work on a pet project of mine, and moving around a lot I don't have access to internet apart from phone tethering (although a low data plan), which I've been forced to do here to find out what the hell was actually going on. I opened up my project, run it and found that the sprites were mutilated. Thankfully at this stage they are all my own testing sprites and not actual game art, but nonetheless I was incredibly displeased, and given my limited data I can't update for another few weeks. How often do I need to tether so my license can 'recheck'?
You should really be careful how you manage copy protection, this was a disgustingly destructive way to go about it. If it had damaged resources that I were using in a game that I would be selling I'd be looking for damage compensation.
Is there any way to enable backups like the old versions of gamemaker had? At least that might help avoid these issues in the future.
Running 1.1.666 btw.

Edited by Loopyluke, 29 November 2012 - 09:48 AM.

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#38 rwkay

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:59 AM

Backups have been in for a long time go to File -> Preferences -> Enable Back ups, and set the directory you want the back ups made to.

Russell
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#39 Passa

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:39 AM

Backups have been in for a long time go to File -> Preferences -> Enable Back ups, and set the directory you want the back ups made to.

Are we really returning to blaming the users again?
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#40 Nocturne

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:50 AM


Backups have been in for a long time go to File -> Preferences -> Enable Back ups, and set the directory you want the back ups made to.

Are we really returning to blaming the users again?


Don't start with that crap...


Is there any way to enable backups like the old versions of gamemaker had? At least that might help avoid these issues in the future.
Running 1.1.666 btw.

Backups have been in for a long time go to File -> Preferences -> Enable Back ups, and set the directory you want the back ups made to.


Russell was responding to a legitimate question with a legitimate answer... I understand that you are upset and that is perfectly reasonable but please do NOT turn a mistake (admitted and rectified) into an excuse to bash the people that are listening and responding to your criticisms in an open and admirably candid way.
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#41 rwkay

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:51 AM

No, I am just reminding everyone that Backups were added around 2-3 months ago, though this does not seem to be common knowledge.

We are very sorry that you have been affected by this mistake on our part, and we have removed the offending code and we will never do anything like this again (that affects the project saved on disk) but we still reserve the right to make a pirates life very difficult, we already publish a Free version that is very open and has very few restrictions so any requirement to pirate the full copy of GameMaker:Studio is with a view to publishing on multiple targets (not just for testing the product out), anyone taking this route does not have any license for publishing and we take a very dim view of this. There has been no crack yet that has been fully successful and we monitor this situation very closely.

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#42 Passa

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:19 AM

No, I am just reminding everyone that Backups were added around 2-3 months ago, though this does not seem to be common knowledge.

We are very sorry that you have been affected by this mistake on our part, and we have removed the offending code and we will never do anything like this again (that affects the project saved on disk) but we still reserve the right to make a pirates life very difficult, we already publish a Free version that is very open and has very few restrictions so any requirement to pirate the full copy of GameMaker:Studio is with a view to publishing on multiple targets (not just for testing the product out), anyone taking this route does not have any license for publishing and we take a very dim view of this. There has been no crack yet that has been fully successful and we monitor this situation very closely.

I will admit fault in not realising you were replying to a sentence at the end of Loopyluke's post that I hadn't noticed. However, your paragraph here indicates you guys still don't get it. What I mean is, I don't care. I don't care that you want to stop people from pirating, and that you "reserve the right to make a pirates life difficult". Because these things shouldn't affect me. I shouldn't know the DRM exists, because I'm the paying (and highly paying one at that) customer. I'm the guy you should be rewarding, not shrugging off as an unfortunate casualty of your bad DRM.

It's the mantra of rewarding your customers vs punishing the pirates. There are no technological schemes that allow you to do the latter without impacting the former. Clearly, I mistook YYG for a company that values its customers, since right here you're telling me you care more about stopping pirates, with questionable means. No program should have a nuclear option like this.

Another thing - I really want clarification on something Mike said earlier:

For those who CAN afford it, but find it just as easy to copy it. Well, rest assured, we know the games which get made, and if something does well.... I'm sure we'll be in touch. :whistle:/>

Does this mean my apps will be reporting back to YYG, and letting you check to see if I compiled it with a legitimate version? Are final binaries I make with a legitimate copy of GMS trackable by YYG in any way? Do they call home?

Finally, just a thought: I've spent today ranting on Twitter and Facebook (and forums) to anyone who would listen about how angry I was with this. What impacts your sales more negatively - dissatisfied customers who, rather than providing glowing recommendations of your software, are criticising it publicly (due to over the top DRM), or a yet to be proven jump in piracy between gentle DRM regimes and over the top ones? Piracy sucks, I'm sure, but there's no better advocates and advertising platform for your brand than existing, loyal customers. Someone like me, who has been using GameMaker since version 5. I think YYG made the wrong choice here.

Edited by Passa, 29 November 2012 - 11:23 AM.

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#43 rwkay

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:45 AM

Clearly we do value our customers a lot by the way that we respond to criticism and implement requests in a reasonably timely manner, and come before you all in these forums to be shouted at when it merits it, I agree we screwed up here and it will not happen again we will never add any DRM which messes with your project saved on disk in any way.

If you have a legitimate copy of GMS any final binaries are NOT trackable by us, we have no idea what is published onto the app stores by our customers, we are not following your every move and we are not secretly waiting around the corner, they do not call home from legitimate copies.


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#44 Arusiasotto

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:51 AM

It's much more likely they have a signature linked to our license in one of the files that they can cross reference. He specifically stated popular games, so someone just has to look at say, data.win and see that their license data is wrong. Obviously an Android game should not have a license registered to Free, etc.

I'm not sure how they know the app was made in studio though. I haven't gone past tinkering with junk to actually make any games. The image of guys showing up at someones door with Bat'leths and a bill kind of amuses me though.
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"It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter." - Nathaniel Borenstein

 

 

 


#45 Passa

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:53 AM

Clearly we do value our customers a lot by the way that we respond to criticism and implement requests in a reasonably timely manner, and come before you all in these forums to be shouted at when it merits it, I agree we screwed up here and it will not happen again we will never add any DRM which messes with your project saved on disk in any way.

If you have a legitimate copy of GMS any final binaries are NOT trackable by us, we have no idea what is published onto the app stores by our customers, we are not following your every move and we are not secretly waiting around the corner, they do not call home from legitimate copies.


Thanks Russell. This is the sort of thing I wanted to hear, and I do appreciate YYG keeping a thread about this issue open rather than shutting down discussion.
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#46 9_6

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:33 PM

I don't think I need to re-iterate my stance on drm.

Maybe you should get a little less creative in the "making the life of pirates as hard as possible" department.
Who thought it was a good idea to put that "feature" into a development tool that deals with years of accumulated work, no matter the intent?
Corrupting game files back in the days was bad enough even if it happened very rarely but intentionally putting such a mechanic into the program is a whole other story.

Some people out there use your program to make a living.
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#47 ryan1980

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:07 AM

I'm afraid after this instance, the only thing you'll monitor is declining sales and an uptick in those who wouldn't pirate otherwise but do so out of spite for DRM. No malice toward you, but your program helps facilitate copyright infringement in the first place. For every Froad, there's 18 Zelda clones and 42 Super Mario engines. And apparently you know that because you can monitor every user's game when they make an executable. Yet you're ok with that, right?


You're involved in what once was an amazing concept of sharing and utilizing crowd sourced ideas and codes that people willfully gave up to help each other to what now is a DRM ladened trap to extort money from those who are still honest enough to pay for it. Your companies' paranoia will be the downfall of this and your cat and mouse game with pirates will continue to affect everyone but the cat and the mouse.


I mean this with all the honesty in the world.
It really is sad what YoYo Games has done to this brand. You won't listen, but I'll say it anyway. Release the next updates with no DRM. Period. I can't say that I would want to buy your product(I bought studio, but I'm now unsure if I want to put money into what now seems like an inferior product) knowing what could potentially happen. Passive or not. I'd really hate to near completion on a licensed program and not be able to do anything with it because of misguided DRM. You know that it's coming down the line too (I can only assume that other's fear this, too).

I used gamemaker 8.1 and fell in love with it and bought GM:Studio because of a strong sense of loyalty to Yoyo and the user community that helped me build my games. I'm still loyal to the users and thank them. Since then, it's been weeks of heartbreak and folly due to no fault of my own. I don't want to be treated this way. Fix or not.

Edited by ryan1980, 30 November 2012 - 01:18 AM.

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#48 Nocturne

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:18 AM

You're involved in what once was an amazing concept of sharing and utilizing crowd sourced ideas and codes that people willfully gave up to help each other to what now is a DRM ladened trap to extort money from those who are still honest enough to pay for it. Your companies' paranoia will be the downfall of this and your cat and mouse game with pirates will continue to affect everyone but the cat and the mouse.


Please, lets not exaggerate... Someone made a mistake, it has been admitted, and it has been fixed. End of story. there is no "DRM Laden trap" and I don't believe that anyone from YoYo games beat down your door and threatened your grandma "to extort money" from you to buy GM:Studio. Yes, it was a bad idea, yes it shouldn't have happened... However instead of berating them for this, you should also be thanking them for the VERY quick admission and fix. this is something admirable given the embarrasing situation that they are in and the media backlash. Many companies would have tried to worm out of the situation or just hidden but these guys haven't.

The lesson has been learned, an apology has been given, and the product has been improved... what more do you want?
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#49 Arusiasotto

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:03 AM

...Cookies and ponies? Oh, and bat'leths :3
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"It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter." - Nathaniel Borenstein

 

 

 


#50 Khornel

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:09 PM

The lesson has been learned, an apology has been given, and the product has been improved... what more do you want?

I think it's obvious what he wants; he wants the folks at YoYoGames to stop focusing on piracy altogether and start just making their product better.

Annoying a few crackers and inevitably screwing over your legitimate customers will never be as profitable as building a solid product and a good reputation. I completely understand why you would hate pirates but spending any time at all on them is time wasted, it's just blind rage. It won't make any difference. Why not spend that time on acquiring legitimate customers who will recommend the product to their friends? This DRM business is doing the exact opposite. People who pirate GameMaker will most certainly not buy it just because the DRM is annoying, but serious customers will probably avoid it because of this.

I'm so sick of how exaggerated DRM has become. I can't count the number of times I've had to crack software I bought legitimately, simply because the DRM did nothing but break the software. If you want to protect your software use non-intrusive, dead simple methods like CD-keys or user logins, anything else is just shooting yourself in the foot.
Besides I've never heard of any pirate quitting because the DRM was too hard to get around, but I've seen people stop pirating because of services like Steam, Netflix and Spotify. Services that make life easier for the legitimate customers instead of just battling the pirates and that pays off in the end.

People are quick to equate pirating to store theft. In that line of thought these DRM methods are like running around all day harassing people in your store because you find them suspicious. The only outcome will be pissing off and losing a lot customers, just to get rid of a few thieves.
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