118 replies to this topic

[rwkay]

No, I am just reminding everyone that Backups were added around 2-3 months ago, though this does not seem to be common knowledge.

We are very sorry that you have been affected by this mistake on our part, and we have removed the offending code and we will never do anything like this again (that affects the project saved on disk) but we still reserve the right to make a pirates life very difficult, we already publish a Free version that is very open and has very few restrictions so any requirement to pirate the full copy of GameMaker:Studio is with a view to publishing on multiple targets (not just for testing the product out), anyone taking this route does not have any license for publishing and we take a very dim view of this. There has been no crack yet that has been fully successful and we monitor this situation very closely.

Russell

[Passa]

No, I am just reminding everyone that Backups were added around 2-3 months ago, though this does not seem to be common knowledge.

We are very sorry that you have been affected by this mistake on our part, and we have removed the offending code and we will never do anything like this again (that affects the project saved on disk) but we still reserve the right to make a pirates life very difficult, we already publish a Free version that is very open and has very few restrictions so any requirement to pirate the full copy of GameMaker:Studio is with a view to publishing on multiple targets (not just for testing the product out), anyone taking this route does not have any license for publishing and we take a very dim view of this. There has been no crack yet that has been fully successful and we monitor this situation very closely.

I will admit fault in not realising you were replying to a sentence at the end of Loopyluke's post that I hadn't noticed. However, your paragraph here indicates you guys still don't get it. What I mean is, I don't care. I don't care that you want to stop people from pirating, and that you "reserve the right to make a pirates life difficult". Because these things shouldn't affect me. I shouldn't know the DRM exists, because I'm the paying (and highly paying one at that) customer. I'm the guy you should be rewarding, not shrugging off as an unfortunate casualty of your bad DRM.

It's the mantra of rewarding your customers vs punishing the pirates. There are no technological schemes that allow you to do the latter without impacting the former. Clearly, I mistook YYG for a company that values its customers, since right here you're telling me you care more about stopping pirates, with questionable means. No program should have a nuclear option like this.

Another thing - I really want clarification on something Mike said earlier:

For those who CAN afford it, but find it just as easy to copy it. Well, rest assured, we know the games which get made, and if something does well.... I'm sure we'll be in touch. />

Does this mean my apps will be reporting back to YYG, and letting you check to see if I compiled it with a legitimate version? Are final binaries I make with a legitimate copy of GMS trackable by YYG in any way? Do they call home?

Finally, just a thought: I've spent today ranting on Twitter and Facebook (and forums) to anyone who would listen about how angry I was with this. What impacts your sales more negatively - dissatisfied customers who, rather than providing glowing recommendations of your software, are criticising it publicly (due to over the top DRM), or a yet to be proven jump in piracy between gentle DRM regimes and over the top ones? Piracy sucks, I'm sure, but there's no better advocates and advertising platform for your brand than existing, loyal customers. Someone like me, who has been using GameMaker since version 5. I think YYG made the wrong choice here.

Edited by Passa, 29 November 2012 - 11:23 AM.

[rwkay]

Clearly we do value our customers a lot by the way that we respond to criticism and implement requests in a reasonably timely manner, and come before you all in these forums to be shouted at when it merits it, I agree we screwed up here and it will not happen again we will never add any DRM which messes with your project saved on disk in any way.

If you have a legitimate copy of GMS any final binaries are NOT trackable by us, we have no idea what is published onto the app stores by our customers, we are not following your every move and we are not secretly waiting around the corner, they do not call home from legitimate copies.


Russell

[Arusiasotto]

It's much more likely they have a signature linked to our license in one of the files that they can cross reference. He specifically stated popular games, so someone just has to look at say, data.win and see that their license data is wrong. Obviously an Android game should not have a license registered to Free, etc.

I'm not sure how they know the app was made in studio though. I haven't gone past tinkering with junk to actually make any games. The image of guys showing up at someones door with Bat'leths and a bill kind of amuses me though.

[Passa]

Clearly we do value our customers a lot by the way that we respond to criticism and implement requests in a reasonably timely manner, and come before you all in these forums to be shouted at when it merits it, I agree we screwed up here and it will not happen again we will never add any DRM which messes with your project saved on disk in any way.

If you have a legitimate copy of GMS any final binaries are NOT trackable by us, we have no idea what is published onto the app stores by our customers, we are not following your every move and we are not secretly waiting around the corner, they do not call home from legitimate copies.

Thanks Russell. This is the sort of thing I wanted to hear, and I do appreciate YYG keeping a thread about this issue open rather than shutting down discussion.

[9_6]

I don't think I need to re-iterate my stance on drm.

Maybe you should get a little less creative in the "making the life of pirates as hard as possible" department.
Who thought it was a good idea to put that "feature" into a development tool that deals with years of accumulated work, no matter the intent?
Corrupting game files back in the days was bad enough even if it happened very rarely but intentionally putting such a mechanic into the program is a whole other story.

Some people out there use your program to make a living.

[ryan1980]

I'm afraid after this instance, the only thing you'll monitor is declining sales and an uptick in those who wouldn't pirate otherwise but do so out of spite for DRM. No malice toward you, but your program helps facilitate copyright infringement in the first place. For every Froad, there's 18 Zelda clones and 42 Super Mario engines. And apparently you know that because you can monitor every user's game when they make an executable. Yet you're ok with that, right?


You're involved in what once was an amazing concept of sharing and utilizing crowd sourced ideas and codes that people willfully gave up to help each other to what now is a DRM ladened trap to extort money from those who are still honest enough to pay for it. Your companies' paranoia will be the downfall of this and your cat and mouse game with pirates will continue to affect everyone but the cat and the mouse.


I mean this with all the honesty in the world.
It really is sad what YoYo Games has done to this brand. You won't listen, but I'll say it anyway. Release the next updates with no DRM. Period. I can't say that I would want to buy your product(I bought studio, but I'm now unsure if I want to put money into what now seems like an inferior product) knowing what could potentially happen. Passive or not. I'd really hate to near completion on a licensed program and not be able to do anything with it because of misguided DRM. You know that it's coming down the line too (I can only assume that other's fear this, too).

I used gamemaker 8.1 and fell in love with it and bought GM:Studio because of a strong sense of loyalty to Yoyo and the user community that helped me build my games. I'm still loyal to the users and thank them. Since then, it's been weeks of heartbreak and folly due to no fault of my own. I don't want to be treated this way. Fix or not.

Edited by ryan1980, 30 November 2012 - 01:18 AM.

[Nocturne]

You're involved in what once was an amazing concept of sharing and utilizing crowd sourced ideas and codes that people willfully gave up to help each other to what now is a DRM ladened trap to extort money from those who are still honest enough to pay for it. Your companies' paranoia will be the downfall of this and your cat and mouse game with pirates will continue to affect everyone but the cat and the mouse.

Please, lets not exaggerate... Someone made a mistake, it has been admitted, and it has been fixed. End of story. there is no "DRM Laden trap" and I don't believe that anyone from YoYo games beat down your door and threatened your grandma "to extort money" from you to buy GM:Studio. Yes, it was a bad idea, yes it shouldn't have happened... However instead of berating them for this, you should also be thanking them for the VERY quick admission and fix. this is something admirable given the embarrasing situation that they are in and the media backlash. Many companies would have tried to worm out of the situation or just hidden but these guys haven't.

The lesson has been learned, an apology has been given, and the product has been improved... what more do you want?

[Arusiasotto]

...Cookies and ponies? Oh, and bat'leths :3

[Khornel]

The lesson has been learned, an apology has been given, and the product has been improved... what more do you want?

I think it's obvious what he wants; he wants the folks at YoYoGames to stop focusing on piracy altogether and start just making their product better.

Annoying a few crackers and inevitably screwing over your legitimate customers will never be as profitable as building a solid product and a good reputation. I completely understand why you would hate pirates but spending any time at all on them is time wasted, it's just blind rage. It won't make any difference. Why not spend that time on acquiring legitimate customers who will recommend the product to their friends? This DRM business is doing the exact opposite. People who pirate GameMaker will most certainly not buy it just because the DRM is annoying, but serious customers will probably avoid it because of this.

I'm so sick of how exaggerated DRM has become. I can't count the number of times I've had to crack software I bought legitimately, simply because the DRM did nothing but break the software. If you want to protect your software use non-intrusive, dead simple methods like CD-keys or user logins, anything else is just shooting yourself in the foot.
Besides I've never heard of any pirate quitting because the DRM was too hard to get around, but I've seen people stop pirating because of services like Steam, Netflix and Spotify. Services that make life easier for the legitimate customers instead of just battling the pirates and that pays off in the end.

People are quick to equate pirating to store theft. In that line of thought these DRM methods are like running around all day harassing people in your store because you find them suspicious. The only outcome will be pissing off and losing a lot customers, just to get rid of a few thieves.

[FX62]

Just my opinion... They've admitted that the segment of DRM they used was a bad idea. It caused problems for many, they've apologized, removed it, which is more than some companies out there would do. Overly aggressive DRM is not something I use, simply because I myself find that inputting a forty plus character serial key to be a pain as do my customers. So mine is short and simple. It keeps my customers happy and that's important, at least for me. For YoYo, I'm sure they've learned. They have an excellent product, I've accepted their apology and it's time to move on. Just remember to always backup your work, especially before every upgrade/update. I don't expect them to remove all the DRM protection they have on their product, they have to make a living too. I'm sure there will be a rebuttal on my post, but so be it.

[Khornel]

I don't expect them to remove all the DRM protection they have on their product, they have to make a living too.

Neither do I, but I had hoped that they would lighten up on the piracy witch hunt and focus more and the product. But that seems not to be the case, since every apology has been accompanied with a remark on battling piracy, like it's the worst thing in the world, which is the kind of thinking that started this whole thing.
I would also like to remark that DRM is not some magic way of making money. It seeks to hinder piracy, but that doesn't mean you'll suddenly start making a tonne of cash. If you want make a living you should make a good product, not integrate some fancy DRM scheme.

[FX62]

I don't expect them to remove all the DRM protection they have on their product, they have to make a living too.

Neither do I, but I had hoped that they would lighten up on the piracy witch hunt and focus more and the product. But that seems not to be the case, since every apology has been accompanied with a remark on battling piracy, like it's the worst thing in the world, which is the kind of thinking that started this whole thing.
I would also like to remark that DRM is not some magic way of making money. It seeks to hinder piracy, but that doesn't mean you'll suddenly start making a tonne of cash. If you want make a living you should make a good product, not integrate some fancy DRM scheme.

The argument over DRM has been going on for years and it'll never end. Do I think that a fancy one of a kind DRM's will make those who pirate pay? Maybe a small amount, but there will never be a bullet proof solution. My point is though, they've removed the offending part of the DRM that was causing everyone grief. They have an excellent product, at least from my viewpoint and it's time to move on. This thread could go on for years, but it won't accomplish anything for either side of the issue.

Edited by FX62, 30 November 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[icuurd12b42]

From my experience, people that use cracks would likely never have bought the product in the first place. And this is hinted to in a prior post, people that feel they need to have everything on their system yet never really use any of it. Everyone knows this guy at work who boasts he has everything! Code pushers in my days would bring CDs filled with 100s of cracked products. Now they just tell you a link to download it from.

My experience is the moment you get serious about using a product, most of us would buy it. And from my experience, the more your product is pirated, the more sales you end up having. It has little effect on initial sales but has a beneficial effect in the long run, because people who would never had bought it in the first place will see the value and convert to be legit.

GM is not a game, it is a tool, different rules apply, I would never encourage this philosophy for a game.

And yoyo does have a community which people log on to to be helped and be converted to legit users. A lot can be done here on the GMC, a lot more than a smart piece of DRM code would.

[ryan1980]

The lesson has been learned, an apology has been given, and the product has been improved... what more do you want?

I think it's obvious what he wants; he wants the folks at YoYoGames to stop focusing on piracy altogether and start just making their product better.

Indeed, that is what I want.

If legit copies have legit DRM on them

and only legit users use legit copies...

then only legit users have to deal BS DRM schemes.

That is reality and there is no mention of pirates and piracy in that syllogism. As a legit user I'm telling you to STOP using DRM because it only ever affect people like me.

[Arusiasotto]

Indeed, that is what I want.

If legit copies have legit DRM on them

and only legit users use legit copies...

then only legit users have to deal BS DRM schemes.

That is reality and there is no mention of pirates and piracy in that syllogism. As a legit user I'm telling you to STOP using DRM because it only ever affect people like me.

I mentioned in another thread about a friend who got the skulls. I told him "Avast ye harty, the store be that a way!"
So yes, pirates are also affected. You just obviously don't see them in the thread complaining about how YoYo has ruined their life and kicked their puppy.

[ryan1980]

Indeed, that is what I want.

If legit copies have legit DRM on them

and only legit users use legit copies...

then only legit users have to deal BS DRM schemes.

That is reality and there is no mention of pirates and piracy in that syllogism. As a legit user I'm telling you to STOP using DRM because it only ever affect people like me.

I mentioned in another thread about a friend who got the skulls. I told him "Avast ye harty, the store be that a way!"
So yes, pirates are also affected. You just obviously don't see them in the thread complaining about how YoYo has ruined their life and kicked their puppy.

Pirates should a non issue to GM. They exist. They are a constant. They will break the DRM code at some point, and that will be that. It's inevitable and failing that, they will group together and build around gamemaker and just make it compatible to whatever they build. (This is already happening, btw...) As others have said, it is an endless regress. Gm can add all the new integers they want and it will never end. And other developers and coders will just surpass them, and make it free and open source (Again, already happening...)

As I said before, I don't hold any malice towards Yoyo at all. I get it- It was a mistake on their part and they won't do it again. Fine, I accept their apology, but in fixing this, they should aim to remove all of the cancer, as it is the only way to make sure that **** like this doesn't happen again.

Edited by ryan1980, 30 November 2012 - 11:07 PM.

[chance]

From my experience, people that use cracks would likely never have bought the product in the first place.

My experience is that potential customers who can easily download pirated/cracked copies without fear of consequences, will do so -- instead of buying. So I don't fault YoYo Games at all for using DRM protection. They'd be foolish to ignore piracy.

Mike and Russell have personally apologized for the screw-up, so we should accept their apology and move on.

Edited by chance, 30 November 2012 - 11:19 PM.

[Debels]

I have a suggestion to YoYo:

When you finish improving the way you detect cracked GM:Studios versions then do the following:

When cracked users are compiling there games add a line or something that indicates there version is cracked and then contact publishers such as Google Play, Amazon and Apple Store about this so they add a check when users upload there games checking if the cracked tag or something is there and if it is then they contact you and the game gets removed and you take action and such.

This is what most programs and boards do to prevent users from using cracked versions.

Edited by Debels, 30 November 2012 - 11:27 PM.

[icuurd12b42]

From my experience, people that use cracks would likely never have bought the product in the first place.

My experience is that potential customers who can easily download pirated/cracked copies without fear of consequences, will do so -- instead of buying.

I worked in anti piracy for 4 years. My experience is to let it go for this sort of product... and reap the long term benefits... like Microsoft did (even if they did fight all the way). Today's pirates are tomorrows customers.

Banking on piracy is better than trying to stop it. There is only one way to protect a product usefully, and that is to link it to a online service. You pay for the service, not the binary.

You can't play the "potential loss" card. it is not loss to not make a sell to someone who never would buy it in the first place. And for the people you mention, either they buy later, or they burn in hell (lol)

So I don't fault YoYo Games at all for using DRM protection. They'd be foolish to ignore piracy.

I dont fault Yoyo myself, well aside from destroying user content (tongue in cheek), ah well, it's OK, we all make mistakes... The blunder will probably serve to scare people away from getting a cracked copy come to think of it. So well played!!