13 replies to this topic

[Saijee]

Apparently a lot of people have bad experiences with escort missions. Or missions in a which you lose when an certain NPC dies.

I personally have a lot of fond memories of said type of mission.

I thin the funnest execution I have seen was Mario vs DK:


What made this fun is a combination of factors.
1) The wind-up toy had no real AI, you were actually in 100% control of it. So you really felt that if you failed the mission it you could only blame yourself.
2) The wind-up toy was shared the the same running speed and jumping height as you, so you would not have to worry about it not keeping up with you.
3) It was able to do some things that you weren't, as shown in the video: Fitting in small areas.
4) It could collect items for you

I also came up with an alternative, although it only seems like it would be fun on the 1st player's side. That is that during escort missions 2nd player hot-seat would have the option to play as the escorted. The reason I can see this as not being too much fun for 2nd player, is that the nature of an NPC that requires being escorted is understood to be unable to fight on it's own.

[fenyxofshadows]

I find that the best way to do escort missions is to have the escort be under the same rules as your other characters. Allow them to attack, aid the party and have purpose, basically allow them to be a party member in some way. One example is the escort mission with Minnie Mouse in KH2. While if she were killed it was game over, she had a decent HP pool, some holy-based magic attacks, and a chargeable room clearing attack that would allow you to get through the segment without too much annoyance or difficulty.

Another way to do escorts is to have an escort mission in name only. As an example of this, when you escort Zelda out of Hyrule Castle in TLoZ: A Link to the Past, Zelda simply follows you around, occasionally helping you with some puzzles. She cannot be damaged, instead staying away from the action while you fight off monsters. So, she acts helpful, doesn't annoy you with terrible AI, and yet is an escort mission *early* in a game. The Zelda series has several good examples of escort missions.

As another example of good escort missions in Zelda, your example of a good escort mission also applies to the escort missions in The Wind Waker, where you escort the bird girl. You control her movements, either directly (with the Wind Waker itself) or through throwing her or holding her and using her as wings. Therefore, any mistakes are your own fault, not killing nearby enemies to make sure you are safe whilst controlling her, not aiming right, etc.


Anyway, as long as people think of the fun, not about making it annoying, they can make it good. Once the escorts become a bother and a liability, the fun becomes annoyance, rage, and causes controller throwing and system smashing.

Honestly, your idea may be useful in a game that is already 2 players, but in a game that is generally single player, it would be completely ignored and simply seen as an easter egg.

Edited by fenyxofshadows, 05 July 2012 - 07:10 AM.

[Saijee]

I like to classify a mission where you are assisting an NPC that is capable of self defense a *consort mission* rather than an escort mission.

And both are going to be in my game.

My idea is actually just to follow the guidlines of MvDK, I think your referring to my alternative.

But I think the general jist of it is that it feels unfair when it's not your fault that you failed. That being said having full or pseudo control over the escorted would give you more of a feeling of responsibility.

[Insert Name Here]

I like to classify a mission where you are assisting an NPC that is capable of self defense a *consort mission* rather than an escort mission.

And both are going to be in my game.

My idea is actually just to follow the guidlines of MvDK, I think your referring to my alternative.

But I think the general jist of it is that it feels unfair when it's not your fault that you failed. That being said having full or pseudo control over the escorted would give you more of a feeling of responsibility.

Why not allow you to switch between players?

[Saijee]

Because then the character your not controlling is a sitting duck, and this game is rather fast paced.

I am not willing to offer any characters, heroes, escorts, consorts or badguys idle invincibility in this game.

[kburkhart84]

My biggest complaints on an escort mission would be from the Mechwarrior series. You get stuck escorting vehicles that get destroyed in one single shot from almost any weapon, and since you are fighting around them, a mis-fire from you, your party, or the enemy mechs could fail you the mission. If you mis-fired, maybe it's your fault, but if the enemy mis-fires, as in is actually shooting at you and misses, then it is not your fault, but you fail the mission. A fix for this would simply be that the vehicles can take more damage, and/or regenerate over time. Then, they can't be killed except for by a concentrated effort, such as an enemy that you didn't cover, etc...

The thing about escort missions is that they are either really escort missions, or they are are in disguise. If the thing being escorted is too strong/smart, it is a "consort" mission like you said. A true escort mission is when what you are escorting is weaker, maybe defenseless. This doesn't mean it has no HP, rather either it is simply too slow to avoid fire, or it maybe is fast, but can't shoot back, etc... A disguised escort mission is like the point about zelda LTTP, because the escorted thing(zelda) was pretty much always out of range of the enemy, and never would have gotten hit. The real point of that part of the game was get from A to B.

I have nothing against escort missions, as long as if you lose it is your own fault. In a platformer, you could do something similar to what I was talking about with Mechwarrior, where thing follows a set path, slowly, and you stay around it defending it. As long as it takes a few hits at least, it would work.

[Saijee]

I agree, they not enough HP can be annoying because then it feels like a lack of warning.


By the way I just got some insight for an idea I think might work pretty well.

This would only work if you were playing the game on a game pad though.

During any point where you have a single unit to escort or you have a consort, you can control the direction that they go by utilizing the right analog stick. So what you control running vs standing, jumping, and ducking (which depending on the character may be guarding, reflecting projectiles, or healing).

From this point I'm not sure which is a better idea for handling a consorts offensive abilities. I see 2 equally good possibilities:

1) Your consort will use their counterparts to the attacks you do. When you do a melee, they will melee, when you shoot a projectile they will shoot as well.

2) The AI will automatically attack whenever it thinks it has a clear shot, or whenever it is close enough to melee.

Also taking control of your buddy is completely optional, if you never touch that right analog stick they won't be under your direct control, and if you don't touch the right analog for about 3 seconds the AI will resume control.

I don't know, but it looks awesome in my head.

[Katuko]

As long as "automatically attack" doesn't translate to "suicidal charge at the slightest hint of an enemy", then sure, let them attack on their own. I recall an escort mission in Fallout 3, where your job was to help a girl named Cherry from some guy's house and to Rivet City a good distance away. The path there was pretty straightforward, but the mission was kind of aggravating due to the large amount of Super Mutants that blocked the way. Sneaking past some of them could be done, but in general you would be better off shooting them. Now, Cherry had very little HP and no armor or weapon, so she was helpless against any enemies. A few times she died from minigun bullets meant for me, or a Mutant taking a single shot with a standard hunting rifle after her. This got annoying.

Most of the time, though, Cherry would instead flee to a safe distance the second combat started, and that did help a lot. However, sometimes all mutants could be gone and still she would sit crouched and defenseless and beg for the shooting to stop. In these cases I could not speak with her to make her follow me again, because the game would insist that "This person is fleeing." Perhaps there was a single mutant left behind some rubble somewhere, I dunno, but in any case it was irritating that I couldn't continue even after clearing the field.

Finally I figured out (this was my first "follower" in Fallout 3) that I could talk with Cherry and tell her to wait in a specific location. I therefore left her at the first house, went and cleared out the mutants, then quickly returned to her and walked her the way to Rivet City. Cue "quest complete" sound and the cash register "cha-ding!" of EXP being given. On subsequent playthroughs I have "cheated" by finding Rivet City first, though, and then just use the fast-travel to bring Cherry there in an instant. I still go an clear out the mutants for their EXP, of course, but I do it separately so Cherry won't be bothering me.


Long story short: if you want a helpless NPC for the player to escort, give them the ability to order them to stand still, stay hidden and also start following you again. Having control over their actual movements or eventual attacks isn't so important, but being able to take steps to prolong the NPC's life is important to avoid frustration. In some games you have healing powers that can be used on others, or perhaps some form of shield/tanking power to protect them. Regenerating HP for the NPC might be enough so long as there is break time between combat encounters.

[Saijee]

As long as "automatically attack" doesn't translate to "suicidal charge at the slightest hint of an enemy", then sure, let them attack on their own. I recall an escort mission in Fallout 3

Long story short: if you want a helpless NPC for the player to escort, give them the ability to order them to stand still, stay hidden and also start following you again. Having control over their actual movements or eventual attacks isn't so important, but being able to take steps to prolong the NPC's life is important to avoid frustration. In some games you have healing powers that can be used on others, or perhaps some form of shield/tanking power to protect them. Regenerating HP for the NPC might be enough so long as there is break time between combat encounters.

I think your a bit confused here. Part of what makes escorts helpless is that they CAN'T attack. I never said they would attack. I said that consorts would attack. Also even for you as the player, charging at the slightest hint of an enemy is the encouraged method to clear the area: Enemies can seem rather clever, so by reducing the amount of time they live it lowers the possible amount of damage they can do to you. So by auto attack I meant: If it is in their line of fire, they will take a shot at it, and if it's within arms reach, they will swing melee attacks at it.

But if any of that is a problem, you didn't even mention my alternative, which says that your consort would only attack when you attack.

Edited by Saijee, 06 July 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[QuickPatch]

From a reality standpoint, escort missions are just... a part of combat I suppose. From a gameplay standpoint, they're very difficult to implement well. I imagine an escort mission in real life would be very frustrating and difficult, but games aren't real, they're games.

A nice touch no one has seemed to mention (except for Katuko kinda) is giving the player the tools for escorting. A lot of games attempt escort missions by just adding vulnerable targets for the enemy to shoot, and expect you to do so with the tools you already have. Namely, the tools designed for one man, one player gameplay. Games sometimes don't let you give armor or heal escortees. They sometimes don't let you tell the escortee what to do to fit your own play style (hide, run, stand close, typical commands). They'll even send enemies specially designed to kill your escortee by using homing, stunning, or spraying weapons. To make it worse you may not be able to deflect these shots with shields or your own bullets.

Sorry, rambling. Point is, a lot games add escorting, but don't bother adding certain elements, thereby removing your control over the situation, making it frustrating as hell.

[Lune]

Escort missions are a struggle between you trying to keep the escorted out of the enemy's line of sight, and the game trying to through the escorted back into the enemy's LoS. The game usually accomplishes this by throwing out more enemies from more locations, and you usually accomplish your part by eliminating the enemy so that there is no LoS.

This is frustrating as long as it's impossible to keep the escorted out of the enemy's LoS. For example, you usually can only defend one side of the escorted at once, but enemies often pour in from multiple sides.

So there are two ways to alleviate the issue. The first is for the enemy to never swarm too many sides at once. If they are going to come from both east and west, then there should be enough time between each assault for the protagonist to dispose of whichever party comes first and then move to the other side. As long as you can stand between the enemy and the escorted, most of the frustration is mitigated.

The second way is to allow the escorted to hide in safe zones. Maybe that's something the AI is already programmed to do, and maybe it's something that you're able to command of it. Then you're the only one who has to be in harm's way, and it doesn't feel like a roll of the dice whether the escorted is attacked.

[Saijee]

Lune, you bring up a good point. Though I'm not sure you were trying to bring this up. But simply leaving your buddy behind so that they cannot be in the enemy's line of site is a really cheap and easy to abuse way to get around.

So to counter this, I had this idea that if the escorted unit is too far away from you then it is assumed you left them behind and that they are being attacked by monsters as a result, so they will start to automatically lose HP ad a slow and steady rate. And upon returning to them there will be some monster around them.

[Chris_Devl]

I think the biggest problem with escort missions is that they're usually really slow (because of the AI). If you can find a way to make it fast, and have the AI not create any problems, get stuck, or slow down progression in anyway, than I think you're good..

[Insert Name Here]

The various "allies" in Nintendo Nightmare show a good example. Mabye you could take a look.