42 replies to this topic

[Mr. RPG]

Toasty, you do not have to mention you made the game with YoYoGames.


They are saying you must include an EULA in which

... the Applications and all materials accompanying the Stand-alone Applications shall include a notice and End User Licence Terms: (i) identifying the rights of YoYo Games and that they include, are based on and made using the Software; (ii) that such end user will have no right to modify, adapt, decompile or reverse engineer the Stand-alone Applications or make any use of the Software contained therein nor to permit anyone else to do so; and (iii) that such end user must not remove, disable, modify, add to or tamper with any program code or data, copyright, trademark or other proprietary notices and legends contained within the object (compiled) code of the Software;

[toastybuns]

Toasty, you do not have to mention you made the game with YoYoGames.


They are saying you must include an EULA in which

... the Applications and all materials accompanying the Stand-alone Applications shall include a notice and End User Licence Terms: (i) identifying the rights of YoYo Games and that they include, are based on and made using the Software; (ii) that such end user will have no right to modify, adapt, decompile or reverse engineer the Stand-alone Applications or make any use of the Software contained therein nor to permit anyone else to do so; and (iii) that such end user must not remove, disable, modify, add to or tamper with any program code or data, copyright, trademark or other proprietary notices and legends contained within the object (compiled) code of the Software;

But surely "include a notice and End User License Terms" means that somewhere within any standalone applications created with game maker I have to make a statement "identifying the rights of YoYo Games and that they include, are based on and made using the Software"

I don't see how that can possibly mean anything other than mentioning that your game was made with GameMaker. I feel like I'm missing something obvious, please could you explain this to me in simple terms?

Thanks, and sorry if I'm being a drag - I just like to know without doubt what I'm letting myself in for.

[Mr. RPG]

But surely "include a notice and End User License Terms" means that somewhere within any standalone applications created with game maker I have to make a statement "identifying the rights of YoYo Games and that they include, are based on and made using the Software"

I don't see how that can possibly mean anything other than mentioning that your game was made with GameMaker. I feel like I'm missing something obvious, please could you explain this to me in simple terms?

Thanks, and sorry if I'm being a drag - I just like to know without doubt what I'm letting myself in for.

I was under the assumption that it means you must include a license.txt file that the user....

will have no right to modify, adapt, decompile or reverse engineer the Stand-alone Applications or make any use of the Software contained therein nor to permit anyone else to do so; and (iii) that such end user must not remove, disable, modify, add to or tamper with any program code or data, copyright, trademark or other proprietary notices and legends contained within the object (compiled) code of the Software;

However if they are forcing you to say "This game was created with GameMaker by YoYoGames" inside the license then that is new since YoYoGames acquired GameMaker and actually devalues it somewhat. It is no different. I haven't seen a single game (freeware and commericla) do this, actually.

Also, would we have to do this for iOS and Android games? Because several don't even do that.

Edit: I was just reading a part in the license included in Studio.. It says something like.. "You agree that all characters, stories, code, business names, blah, blah, blah, are owned by YoYo Games." This doesn't mean ours..correct? Unfortunately you cannot copy from the license so I couldn't copy it here, but you can find it under 2. Software Intellectual Property Rights. This thing is worded so terribly that I don't even know if we own our OWN games anymore.

Edited by Mr. RPG, 01 July 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[Orbitguy]

Well my question would be is this true for other versions of GameMaker as well, and if so, what EULA do we use for that compared to the ones provided in Studio?

[dannyjenn]

Edit: I was just reading a part in the license included in Studio.. It says something like.. "You agree that all characters, stories, code, business names, blah, blah, blah, are owned by YoYo Games." This doesn't mean ours..correct? Unfortunately you cannot copy from the license so I couldn't copy it here, but you can find it under 2. Software Intellectual Property Rights. This thing is worded so terribly that I don't even know if we own our OWN games anymore.

The one posted on the wiki (not sure if its for Studio or some other version) says

2. Software Intellectual Property Rights
2.1. You agree and acknowledge that all right, title, interest and ownership rights in any and all copyright, design right, database right, patents and any rights to inventions, know-how, trade and business names, trade secrets and trade marks (whether registered or unregistered) and any applications therefor and other intellectual property rights (“Intellectual Property Rights”), in or connected with the Software and any and all copies thereof (including in particular but not limited to any data, database, designs, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogues, catch phrases, places, concepts, artwork, animation, sounds, music, audio-visual effects, text, methods of operation, moral rights and any related documentation) are owned by YoYo Games. All such rights of YoYo Games are hereby asserted and reserved.

It really looks to me like it is referring only to GameMaker (as in, you acknowlege that YoYo Games owns everything that is included with GameMaker, not that they own anything made with GameMaker). It is confusing though, since it mentions characters and stories and stuff which have absolutely nothing to do with GameMaker.
But even if it is saying that you agree that anything you make with GameMaker becomes theirs, I highly doubt that that'd be a legally-enforcable contract. If YoYo Games hid a sentence "by using our software you owe us $1 million" or "by using our software you agree to clean our toilets for the next 20 years" and then they sued you and tried to actually make you pay up then there is no way a judge would ever say "Well you agreed to it, you must do it." Obviously this isn't as extreme a case as something like that but I really don't think that YoYo Games can claim ownership on something, even if you "agreed" to it, without you actually handing over ownership in writing (or even verbally), especially if the agreement itself was so poorly phrased to begin with (i.e. no meeting of the minds, which is usually required for an "agreement" to be valid in the first place)

Well my question would be is this true for other versions of GameMaker as well, and if so, what EULA do we use for that compared to the ones provided in Studio?

Just look in the agreement on your own copy. I'd suspect that they're all very similar but there are probably some differences (and probably more regarding GM7 vs. GM8 vs. GMStudio)... if you're not sure then it wouldn't hurt to check...

Edited by dannyjenn, 01 July 2012 - 10:36 PM.

[Mr. RPG]

Edit: I was just reading a part in the license included in Studio.. It says something like.. "You agree that all characters, stories, code, business names, blah, blah, blah, are owned by YoYo Games." This doesn't mean ours..correct? Unfortunately you cannot copy from the license so I couldn't copy it here, but you can find it under 2. Software Intellectual Property Rights. This thing is worded so terribly that I don't even know if we own our OWN games anymore.

The one posted on the wiki (not sure if its for Studio or some other version) says

2. Software Intellectual Property Rights
2.1. You agree and acknowledge that all right, title, interest and ownership rights in any and all copyright, design right, database right, patents and any rights to inventions, know-how, trade and business names, trade secrets and trade marks (whether registered or unregistered) and any applications therefor and other intellectual property rights (“Intellectual Property Rights”), in or connected with the Software and any and all copies thereof (including in particular but not limited to any data, database, designs, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogues, catch phrases, places, concepts, artwork, animation, sounds, music, audio-visual effects, text, methods of operation, moral rights and any related documentation) are owned by YoYo Games. All such rights of YoYo Games are hereby asserted and reserved.

It really looks to me like it is referring only to GameMaker (as in, you acknowlege that YoYo Games owns everything that is included with GameMaker, not that they own anything made with GameMaker). It is confusing though, since it mentions characters and stories and stuff which have absolutely nothing to do with GameMaker.
But even if it is saying that you agree that anything you make with GameMaker becomes theirs, I highly doubt that that'd be a legally-enforcable contract. If YoYo Games hid a sentence "by using our software you owe us $1 million" or "by using our software you agree to clean our toilets for the next 20 years" and then they sued you and tried to actually make you pay up then there is no way a judge would ever say "Well you agreed to it, you must do it." Obviously this isn't as extreme a case as something like that but I really don't think that YoYo Games can claim ownership on something, even if you "agreed" to it, without you actually handing over ownership in writing (or even verbally), especially if the agreement itself was so poorly phrased to begin with (i.e. no meeting of the minds, which is usually required for an "agreement" to be valid in the first place)

Well my question would be is this true for other versions of GameMaker as well, and if so, what EULA do we use for that compared to the ones provided in Studio?

Just look in the agreement on your own copy. I'd suspect that they're all very similar but there are probably some differences (and probably more regarding GM7 vs. GM8 vs. GMStudio)... if you're not sure then it wouldn't hurt to check...

There are so many hidden things buried inside EULA's that I would believe that they wanted to assume complete ownership of our games.

I'm going to ask this on the help desk and see what they say. I actually doubt I'd receive a reply though.

[kburkhart84]

You are licencing the GameMaker runner for the games you make and it is standard practice to request that you include the licence for that runner in your finished games, and in fact I think that their EULA is one of the least restrictive out there!!! Also, if you care to look at the GameMaker:Studio opening screen, there is a tab marked "Licenses" which lists all the licences that YoYoGames must include for the various technologies they have used to make GameMaker viable, proving that this is standard practice within the industry.

This is what I was going to mention as well. You don't have to explicitly say you made the game with GM, but in the EULA(which next to nobody fully reads) you have to mention Yoyo to a certain extent. The extent as far as I understand is simply that a portion of the code belongs to them, and that any disassembly/decompilation/etc... would be illegal. It isn't to create advertisement for them, and it doesn't even have to be inside the game itself, as long as it is in the installer.

Now for mobile games, can someone tell me how this applies, as in does it have to be in the description, or is it automatically added somehow as part of the apk you upload(for Android apps anyway)? How would this work exactly? I know for windows, it gets added in the EULA as part of the windows(and probably the same for MacOSes) installers, but what about mobile platforms??

[Mr. RPG]

You are licencing the GameMaker runner for the games you make and it is standard practice to request that you include the licence for that runner in your finished games, and in fact I think that their EULA is one of the least restrictive out there!!! Also, if you care to look at the GameMaker:Studio opening screen, there is a tab marked "Licenses" which lists all the licences that YoYoGames must include for the various technologies they have used to make GameMaker viable, proving that this is standard practice within the industry.

This is what I was going to mention as well. You don't have to explicitly say you made the game with GM, but in the EULA(which next to nobody fully reads) you have to mention Yoyo to a certain extent. The extent as far as I understand is simply that a portion of the code belongs to them, and that any disassembly/decompilation/etc... would be illegal. It isn't to create advertisement for them, and it doesn't even have to be inside the game itself, as long as it is in the installer.

Now for mobile games, can someone tell me how this applies, as in does it have to be in the description, or is it automatically added somehow as part of the apk you upload(for Android apps anyway)? How would this work exactly? I know for windows, it gets added in the EULA as part of the windows(and probably the same for MacOSes) installers, but what about mobile platforms??

Still confused. So I do not have to mention that the application was created with GameMaker? I just have to include in the EULA that you cannot decompile, disassemble any code of the application?


Also curious about the mobile games.. Don't know anyone who follows this at all (if it is required)

[NakedPaulToast]

A statement along the lines of:

"Portions of this software are used under licence YoYo Games" or
"Portions of this software copyright YoYo Games"

Statements like this are commonplace in software.

[kburkhart84]

A statement along the lines of:

"Portions of this software are used under licence YoYo Games" or
"Portions of this software copyright YoYo Games"

Statements like this are commonplace in software.

This would work. It is short and to the point, and protects Yoyo Games. And since in the other parts of the EULA it would likely have already mentioned no disassembly/etc... allowed(like almost all EULAs do) it covers it.

[fenyxofshadows]

Okay, look. Ya want an example of this done by any large company? Open up any PC game that uses proprietary software for their engine. You will see a splash screen for the engine.
Here's one for Unreal Tournament III

[toastybuns]

Thanks for posting that Fenyx. However, we are all in agreement that there has to be some kind of declaration in our published products, the questions remain: what this information must consist of (the license agreement appears to differ depending on where you look), and how this must be declared in mobile projects (there doesn't appear to be any information on this).

I personally would love YoYo Games to revisit their licensing agreement and make plain-English versions that outline the key points we must abide by for each format we export, and for each version of GameMaker (Lite, Windows/Mac, Studio)

[Mr. RPG]

A statement along the lines of:

"Portions of this software are used under licence YoYo Games" or
"Portions of this software copyright YoYo Games"

Statements like this are commonplace in software.

This would work. It is short and to the point, and protects Yoyo Games. And since in the other parts of the EULA it would likely have already mentioned no disassembly/etc... allowed(like almost all EULAs do) it covers it.

I understand that I have to declare the above, but must I declare that the application was created with GameMaker or can I just said that "YoYoGames owns partial development in making the game and that the user cannot do"x"?

Honestly, it isn't that big of a deal for me, but I am curious.. Also for mobile games.. Since I do not see any GM mobile games do this.

Edited by Mr. RPG, 03 July 2012 - 02:43 AM.

[NakedPaulToast]

A statement along the lines of:

"Portions of this software are used under licence YoYo Games" or
"Portions of this software copyright YoYo Games"

Statements like this are commonplace in software.

This would work. It is short and to the point, and protects Yoyo Games. And since in the other parts of the EULA it would likely have already mentioned no disassembly/etc... allowed(like almost all EULAs do) it covers it.

I understand that I have to declare the above, but must I declare that the application was created with GameMaker or can I just said that "YoYoGames owns partial development in making the game and that the user cannot do"x"?

Honestly, it isn't that big of a deal for me, but I am curious.. Also for mobile games.. Since I do not see any GM mobile games do this.

I don't see anything in the EULA that even remotely looks like you have to declare the application was greated with GameMaker?

[TsukaYuriko]

Been following the topic quietly since I first posted in here, and I have to say that what I deemed to be impossible and silly at first in fact seems to be true. :|

To NPT:

... the Applications and all materials accompanying the Stand-alone Applications shall include a notice and End User Licence Terms: (i) identifying the rights of YoYo Games and that they include, are based on and made using the Software; (ii) that such end user will have no right to modify, adapt, decompile or reverse engineer the Stand-alone Applications or make any use of the Software contained therein nor to permit anyone else to do so; and (iii) that such end user must not remove, disable, modify, add to or tamper with any program code or data, copyright, trademark or other proprietary notices and legends contained within the object (compiled) code of the Software;

Can be shortened to...

... the Applications and all materials accompanying the Stand-alone Applications shall include a notice ... that they include, are based on and made using the Software ...

To me, this (in a confusing way) states that one has to include "Made with GameMaker" in the EULA. (Since "a notice ... identifying the rights of YoYo Games and that they include, are based on and made using the Software" doesn't make sense - rights aren't made using GM, but applications are).

[Mr. RPG]

Been following the topic quietly since I first posted in here, and I have to say that what I deemed to be impossible and silly at first in fact seems to be true. :|

To NPT:

... the Applications and all materials accompanying the Stand-alone Applications shall include a notice and End User Licence Terms: (i) identifying the rights of YoYo Games and that they include, are based on and made using the Software; (ii) that such end user will have no right to modify, adapt, decompile or reverse engineer the Stand-alone Applications or make any use of the Software contained therein nor to permit anyone else to do so; and (iii) that such end user must not remove, disable, modify, add to or tamper with any program code or data, copyright, trademark or other proprietary notices and legends contained within the object (compiled) code of the Software;

Can be shortened to...

... the Applications and all materials accompanying the Stand-alone Applications shall include a notice ... that they include, are based on and made using the Software ...

To me, this (in a confusing way) states that one has to include "Made with GameMaker" in the EULA. (Since "a notice ... identifying the rights of YoYo Games and that they include, are based on and made using the Software" doesn't make sense - rights aren't made using GM, but applications are).

Are we actually free to edit the license file?

[TsukaYuriko]

If you mean the license/EULA we have to distribute with our games: Since GM's EULA only points to an example EULA (the one to be distributed with the game), I guess we are supposed to make our own (or edit the example EULA).

[toastybuns]

This whole EULA and crediting issue is getting flakier with every post

The questions I feel need to be answered are:

1) What EXACTLY needs to be mentioned in published games?
2) Do the requirements of what needs to be mentioned differ between versions of GameMaker (Lite, Windows/Mac, Studio)?
3) Does the information mentioning GameMaker and YoYo Games have to be mentioned in HTML5, iOS, and Android published apps? If so, how should this information be published? There is no installer with which an EULA can be displayed.
4) The 'Example EULA' displayed on the website and referenced from the EULA in the installer for GameMaker Windows Lite - if this is an example EULA, what can be changed in order to still satisfy YoYo Games' legal requirements?

I'll be contacting YoYo Games about this in the next couple of days - I need solid information before I part with my $600.

[Mike.Dailly]

Quick response.... but I'm not getting drawn into a long debate over this.

When you buy GameMaker, you do not "own" it. You are granted a license to use it, and distribute the runner. This is normal software practise.

You are not required to display "anything" visibly saying that your game was created with GameMaker, although if you do, we might help publicises it!

You should include the bits of the EULA that talk about the runner being © YoYo Games, and that they aren't permitted to decompile etc. Without that being included, an end user could quite legally disassemble the game, because you haven't told them not to, and in theory, you would be liable if "something" happened because of it.

iOS/Android, I'd just include the EULA on disk. If someone's going to copy/mess around with it, then they'll see it.

HTML5..... I suspect on your site somewhere you would have to have a link saying the same - inside a FAQ or something, doesn't have to be front and center.

However..... these are the current requirements, and while me may change them in the future, this is the current requirements. If you don't agree with them, don't buy GameMaker - it's that simple.
And if you think this is harsh, many products like Unity, Unreal can require you to display logos and splash screens, we don't. Once you have your license, you can do whatever you like, only that the EULA shows our Copyright/license terms in there - just as they'll show yours.


Also..... I'm not a lawyer, and don't pretend to be, so don't jump on something saying "I'M TOTALLY WRONG DUDE!", or assume this fulfils everything. From my perspective, this is what "I" would look for in a released game made with GameMaker.


Hope this helps.

[alexandervrs]

Pretty much thought the included License.txt is a sample license for the installer, any commercial game will have some kind of license agreement, but yeah adding the part about the runner could be good practice.

I would have no problem to say I used X software/engine to make my game, tweet it, note it somewhere, especially if I am very pleased with it, but I wouldn't like it to be forced especially when I pay for it.
What I love about GameMaker is the absense of splash screens, other game creation tools display such even if you pay for them and require more money to remove them completely or is impossible!

Bottom line though, attribution to GameMaker is optional.