166 replies to this topic

[Desert Dog]

Btw, what do you mean with health reasons? I have never heard of people being vegetarians for health reasons.

Lactose intolerant, knocks out milk, butter, cream, right there. Some people's stomachs are also sensitive to (red) meat, in a similar manner.

That just leaves fish. And some people don't like fish/don't have a good way of sourcing good fish.

[orange08]

Lactose intolerant, knocks out milk, butter, cream, right there.

Lactose intolerant people can drink goat milk.

[Smarty]

I love me some meat. But I have considered stopping eating it. It's got nothing to do with health - there's nothing particularly unhealthy about eating meat in general, in fact it can be part of a proper diet.

What I have more problems with is that there's this gigantic livestock we feed in the world to give us our meat. Not only does it take a massive amount of natural resources to grow that livestock (enough to feed starving countries), the methane those animals produce is also substantially polluting our atmosphere. Meat is mass produced, and it shows - it's relatively cheap, there's a lot of it that is of inferior quality and it has become a disproportionally large part of our daily consumption. The whole production line is rather sickeningly cruel to animals, too.

I'd like to keep meat around, but I wish it would become the luxury product that it once was. I wish it was maintained with consideration for animals, the environment, public health and, obviously, its taste. I wish it was still special.

You'll find many veggies and vegans turning down meat for the reasons above. Most of it would actually be easier accomplished if meat was simply much, much more expensive.

I wouldn't mind if it was.

[flexaplex]

You'll find many veggies and vegans turning down meat for the reasons above. Most of it would actually be easier accomplished if meat was simply much, much more expensive.

Don't worry it will get more expensive. The world's demand for meat will start to exceed it's production in the coming years, especially as more and more people in countries like China are beginning to expect a western lifestyle for themselves.

However I also fully expect the production of synthetic meat will start to get rolling pretty soon as well, which would change things completely.

[Desert Dog]

Most of it would actually be easier accomplished if meat was simply much, much more expensive.

Farm has free-range animals.
Butcher cuts 'em up.
You buy.
...
More expensive, but you know exactly what you're eating.

Do you not have this option where you're at?

I know some people only eat what they catch themselves. If you can go hunting/fishing once a fortnight, then this isn't such a bad method. People haven't eaten real pork, till they've had wild pork.

Either way, meat is already 'more expensive'. A can of beans is about 10% the price of a steak.

[Takagi]

Although I personally do eat meat, I have considered tuning it down, just for health reasons. Mostly high cholesterol.

And as for the "vegetarians are healthier" argument. I've not really looked into it, but do you think that it's an issue of correlation and not causation? By and large, most of the vegetarians I know are very into working out than non-vegetarians/vegans. Similarly, there's a whole lot less of "vegetarian fast-food" for the and vegans vegetarians to gain weight from. So I feel that part of it may be that. This is just conjecturing based on my own observations.

[Smarty]

Don't worry it will get more expensive. (...)

Yes, it's inevitable. I'm not having high hopes for synthetic meat just yet, though.

Farm has free-range animals.
Butcher cuts 'em up.
You buy.
...
More expensive, but you know exactly what you're eating.

Do you not have this option where you're at?

I can find quality meat if I wanted too, but you're missing the point. Me buying the meat from specialized resources or me wearing a lion skin and going out rabbit hunting with a spear doesn't solve the big problems. I can adopt that attitude, but I'd be naive to assume the rest of the world will follow suit (if it worked, then explain why we still have threads like this about vegetarians, who have been broadcasting the same message for decades already). Making meat more expensive, however, would reduce our disproportionate consumption on a worldly scale.

Either way, meat is already 'more expensive'. A can of beans is about 10% the price of a steak.

You're comparing extremes. Consider this: where I live, and I do not consider this an exception, fast food bought in a supermarket is often cheaper than fresh produce. Try comparing visiting a restaurant vs visiting a snack bar and you'll see it adds up. It's actually one of the reasons why in western countries, people who are on the poorer end of society are often also the more obese. I won't blame meat alone, though.

Edited by Smarty, 28 May 2012 - 11:24 PM.

[Shadow Link]

Vegetarians choose their lifestyle for different reasons:

- Health reasons, as described before. They were simply brought up by their parents as vegetarians, and so their stomachs become used to that lifestyle. Any sudden dietary changes will make them sick because their bodies can't handle it. However, they can slowly start eating meat and become adjusted. Human adaption.
- The impact it has on society, as Smarty described. It pollutes the environment, the animals are treated just as bad as a cornfield (and do you really care if someone chops down a cornfield?). The animals are fed nothing but crap to just keep them alive, and are injected with steroids in order to buff them up for more meat.
- There's some that choose it because they care about animals. Yeah, sure, there's PETA, but believe it or not there are actual humans on this Earth that look at a cow and say to themselves "I wish you didn't have to die just to feed us, you deserve a life too"
- Some people are just sickened by it. To them, it'd be like eating a human - meat is meat after all. Do you eat humans? You probably don't, so I hope you understand their opinions from that perspective.
- Cultural reasons. There's religions that don't allow you to eat meat.
- And then there's people that just like it. Sure, they might try meat every now and then, but they'd much prefer a salad, pizza, pasta, or something else. Pizza's damn delicious.

There's many other opinions which I can list, but I won't get into it any further. I think what we're trying to say is be more open-minded. Humans are built as omnivores, but they don't have to be omnivores. We have a choice to be carnivores, vegetarians, or both. It's the same as saying you dislike gay/lesbian people. Sure, we're built so that males and females can mate, but there's some that don't do it that way.

[True Valhalla]

I don't like people who are vegetarians. Especially vegans.

That's bizarre and simplistic. I can just about stretch to seeing how vegetarians can dislike meat-eaters, if you think of people as caricatures -- since they are essentially participant in the slaughter of animals; but why would you hate someone who abstains from this?

This comment pretty much sums up my thoughts. Hating a vegetarian makes absolutely no sense, and if anything they have more right to hate consumers of meat.

I'm personally not vegetarian, but it's something I'd consider trying and adopting. The carbon footprint of meat is immense compared to organic fruit/veg, and then there are the moral considerations. The main reason I am not vegetarian now is that chicken and fish have health benefits that don't make sense in removing from my diet. I already avoid steak, lamb, pork, bacon, etc.

I think the OP dislikes vegetarians/vegans because he knows that, ultimately, they are the ones who can stand on the moral high ground.

[Desert Dog]

You're comparing extremes. Consider this: where I live, and I do not consider this an exception, fast food bought in a supermarket is often cheaper than fresh produce. Try comparing visiting a restaurant vs visiting a snack bar and you'll see it adds up. It's actually one of the reasons why in western countries, people who are on the poorer end of society are often also the more obese. I won't blame meat alone, though.

Yeah, but the person could pay a fraction of the price of either the restaurant, or fast food, by preparing his own meal.
'Fresh' is often expensive, but canned is generally just as good, often better, and very cheap&convenient. I'm a bit dubious over the idea that poor people are obese because they eat takeaways. It's more people get poor, and obese by spending their money on takeaways.

I don't see why you think I'm comparing extremes.. o.k. a big steak is a bit much, but beans, nuts, soy, etc, are still a very cheap(3-4 times less at least) alternative for protein in your meals. Meat is already an expensive food. People have just gotten use to forking over for it, I guess, or over indulging in it.

[Manuel777]

The way I see it, if I didn't eat the meat, the poor animal would've died in vain. :ohmy:

hahaha, best argument so far! completely agree tho..

I dislike the people who doesnt eat meat to avoid animals get killed, but agree with the ones who are just used to not eat meat, or have health issues that doesnt allow them to eat as much as the average.. but i really dont care, as long as they dont bother me about what i eat

[True Valhalla]

I dislike the people who doesnt eat meat to avoid animals get killed...

How come?

[Manuel777]

I dislike the people who doesnt eat meat to avoid animals get killed...

How come?

The kind of people who doesnt eat meat because he/she doesnt like animals being killed.. it makes sense, but stop eating wont do any help to the poor animal..

[True Valhalla]

I tend to agree that it won't make a difference, but I think it's a mindset to respect not disdain.

[Manuel777]

Yeah, like i said, i dislike that way of thinking, but always respect anyone's opinions about theese kind of stuff

[thatshelby]

I don't mind if you're a vegetarian, or vegan, but if you incessantly nag about how you haven't had meat in 7 years, I will probably punch you.

[Andy]

I’m not offended, by people who choose not to eat meat, and I respect their decision. I do however dislike it when people try to push their diet on me.

[Takagi]

I'm a bit dubious over the idea that poor people are obese because they eat takeaways. It's more people get poor, and obese by spending their money on takeaways.

I've actually heard it the other way around, that poor people eat takeaway. The idea being that you get more calories per dollar.

For instance. A gallon of milk costs around $3 where I live. 2 2L bottles of soda would be $2. Both are roughly the same volume, and the soda is cheaper. Plus, it tastes better. Then there, we have the whole problem of health education in more impoverished areas in which making healthy choices isn't emphasized enough. It's a bit more complex...

[Smarty]

Humans are built as omnivores, but they don't have to be omnivores. We have a choice to be carnivores, vegetarians, or both. It's the same as saying you dislike gay/lesbian people.

Wait, wait. Although vegetarianism is often a conscious choice, homosexuality most definitely is not. It's a characteristic of one's physique that can't be changed at will or persuasion.

Edited by Smarty, 29 May 2012 - 10:12 AM.

[roytheshort]

There are plenty of reasons why some people choose not to eat meat. However, I disagree with the 'we're animals too' argument. So you're saying that cats shouldn't eat mice and spiders shouldn't eat insects?

This matches perfectly in with Smarty's post.

Humans are built as omnivores, but they don't have to be omnivores. We have a choice to be carnivores, vegetarians, or both. It's the same as saying you dislike gay/lesbian people.

Wait, wait. Although vegetarianism is often a conscious choice, homosexuality most definitely is not. It's a characteristic of one's physique that can't be changed at will or persuasion.

Why? Because although Humans can make a conscious choice whether to be vegetarians or not, animals can't. A cat simply does not decide one day "Killing these birds is cruel, poor birds, I'm going to live on a diet of Red Cabbage from now on", not only that, but some animals rely solely on meat and it would be impossible for them to change anyway. And as comparing a human's Sexuality to their choice of food sources is irrelevant because Sexuality is not a conscious choice; you cannot compare a human's choice of food sources to an animal's because the animal doesn't make the conscious choice to eat meat.