42 replies to this topic

[=(:5/7A!I:)=]

People have been given the chance to talk freely in the off topic space. While this is fine for whatever reasons people can think of to justify it (and yes it has its own problems), it has a problem attached to it.

The problem I have is that the games discussion forum is attached to it as a sub forum as though it is an unimportant and unofficial area. This shouldn't be the case.

The value of game developers talking about the games industry and offering different viewpoints to that of the mainstream media, is a real plus. Such viewpoints should not be hidden away and I am sure that the capacity to persuade people of new points of view is quite great when this website ought to be a credible source of information and opinions- from those who actually care about the game development process and the more subtle aspects of the industry.

I had the chance to talk, I used it here.
Meanwhile I'll be scratching my head about the ramifications of the Off-Topic forums.

Edited by =(:5/7A!I:)=, 23 May 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[Jobo]

If they want to discuss it, they will go to the sub-forum.
It's not a big deal, and it most certainly isn't hidden away.

[Nocturne]

If you have a serious topic to discuss about game making, distribution, development etc... then use the Distributing Games forum. That is where people can talk about marketing and main stream media communication. Even if it's not strictly distribution related, a topic that is of interest to the general GMC is fine there. However if you want to talk about how cool DiabloIII is or how crap the next COD looks, then the Games Forum is you place. What it comes down to is the the games forum is for discussing games that have no relation to GameMaker and so of no general importance to the community as a whole, hence the move to Off Topic.

[chance]

The value of game developers talking about the games industry and offering different viewpoints to that of the mainstream media, is a real plus. Such viewpoints should not be hidden away ...

Unfortunately, very few topics there are about the "games industry". They're mostly about particular games, favorite games, consoles, etc. I think the Staff felt it didn't justify a separate forum, and I agree.

My advice: if you have an interesting topic about the games industry -- such as sales trends, acquisitions, mergers, etc.... post it in the main Off Topic forum, (NOT the Games Discussion forum).

[True Valhalla]

I think Game Discussion is one of the least important forums on the GMC from a development standpoint. It's in the perfect spot, as a sub forum of Off Topic.

[=(:5/7A!I:)=]

Just to clarify: It's natural for people to have preferences as to where and in what order things are to be placed. Some things require order and thereafter comes choice, or the other way around. Personally, I think the potential of the games discussion forum is far greater than the potential of the Off-topic forum, considering one is almost purely for, say, recreation, than the other.

No matter the manner in which the Sub-Forum is currently held, it still has importance. Sometimes it's nice to see a natural order. Say, Off-Topic not simply appearing one day and taking the place of discussions about GAMES.
--

GAMES, what are they? Want to talk about them? Well, we encourage you to talk about any old nonsense first because that must be more relevant to the community.

People who make games talk about games and the merits of game designs. The simple fact is, the game design forums could be as simple as you wish and it will always fulfill some purpose other than: put in A and get out B.

I suggest you place Off-Topic as a Sub-Forum of Games Discussion. Games are the reason we are here, anything else is a sub part and is existing directly or indirectly due to games bringing it all together into this structure.

Edited by =(:5/7A!I:)=, 25 May 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[Nocturne]

People who make games talk about games and the merits of game designs. The simple fact is, the game design forums could be as simple as you wish and it would still fulfill some purpose other than: put in A and get out B.

Ahem...

Game Ideas and Design

Distributing Games

Those two forums cover all your needs. The Games in General forum is NOT for educated discussion about the merits of game design and creation. It is for talking about the games you play that are not made with GameMaker, and since this is a GAMEMAKER forum, it should not be anywhere else but off-topic as that is exactly what it is.

[=(:5/7A!I:)=]

Thanks Nocturne for your replies. Your point of view makes sense to me. I may not agree, but that doesn't mean it makes no sense.

I do have an alternative suggestion that you may entertain. You could move Games Discussion (Games in general) so it is a Sub-Forum of the Game Design forum. You could then rename it to: Commercial Games Debates.

A Sub-Forum of Distribution could be: Games Media analysis.
Just something to consider.
Thanks.

[GStick]

It used to be with those other forums, and it wasn't even a sub-forum at the time. But first you say you don't want it as a sub-forum, and now you do. You would change the name... but it would serve the same purpose?

So basically you're just telling us you don't like the thought of entering the off-topic forum.

[=(:5/7A!I:)=]

Hey GStick,

I think a name change implies greater purpose. It would perhaps encourage more specific discussions about particular games, as debates. And then the other half would be under the distribution forum. (Media analysis). Both would be relevant to discussions that already take place in the main forums, though there wouldn't necessarily be anything specifically relating to the GameMaker tool. There is evidence that it would be useful for designers to debate commercial games and it would also be useful to discuss the games media, which does relate to commercial distribution- because I already see it happening. The name of the distribution forum doesn't really accomodate the impression that we could discuss games media and it has already been acknowledged by Nocturne that it is of some relevance and is allowed to be discussed in that forum. Of course specific debates about games would not be a relevant Sub-Forum anywhere other than with the Design forum or the Off-Topic Forum.

There is a big But, though. That is, Off-Topic is bound to generate a lot of views, topics and replies. A percentage would then view the Games Discussion forum. This doesn't make it important or constructive and it's difficult to encourage its importance, however. Also, the Design forum is something like the 5th most popular forum on the site.

So basically you're just telling us you don't like the thought of entering the off-topic forum.

Yes, I think it undermines it when GAMES should not be undermined by more trivial things. The moderators and Admins seem to disagree with me on this as they think that anything not directly relating to GAMEMAKER should not be anywhere other than Off-Topic. Of course in reality this isn't entirely true seeing as chunks of the site are perfectly useful yet are not completely attached or bonded to the application. This implies fuzzy logic, so in the end I regard it as a matter of opinion and preference. Quite simply they don't like the idea of people debating commercial games and it being held as relevant to GAMEMAKER. As for media analysis, well they sort of approve it in small doses but nothing substantial. Personally I think all are related but that's just my opinion.

Edited by =(:5/7A!I:)=, 25 May 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[chance]

...they don't like the idea of people debating commercial games and it being held as relevant to GAMEMAKER.

That's complete nonsense. The fact is, members simply aren't posting many topics like that. Nothing to do with the moderators likes/dislikes.

As for media analysis, well they sort of approve it in small doses but nothing substantial.

Again, complete nonsense. The moderators don't approve or disapprove topics about media analysis. It's up to the members to post them. Where are you getting these ideas?

Look, if you want to discuss the games industry in relation to GameMaker, then do it. Nothing is stopping you. And personally, I like discussions like that.

edit/clarity

Edited by chance, 25 May 2012 - 11:24 PM.

[=(:5/7A!I:)=]

members simply aren't posting many topics like that. Nothing to do with the moderators likes/dislikes.

But we've already come to understand that it's not a matter of popularity, it is a matter of usefulness. Clearly the mods would not be willing to go down the route of increasing the importance of those sorts of discussions by encouraging debate, simply because commercial games aren't related to GameMaker in a way that matches their preference. This means that increased importance to me and to game designers who treat the subject seriously, is no more of an increased importance to the mods. It's a generalization that those sorts of discussions are not related to GameMaker. I would say that generally games are related to GameMaker, but that argument is too general also which is why I've tried to explain it in other ways.

The moderators don't approve or disapprove topics about media analysis. It's up to the members to post them. Where are you getting these ideas?

The moderators would -Have- to approve or disapprove topics about media analysis, as essentially the moderators fulfill the role of approving and disapproving every topic that is ever made. Nocturne already explained that there is room for those sorts of topics. However, if members tried to post lots of very specific topics about media analysis then it would be considered detrimental to the Distribution forums as it isn't the main focus. All that has been expressed is that it wouldn't be so bad for people to post those ocassionally.

I think what I'm trying to say is that when you encourage new ideas, people can really catch on to them. I think you feel alienated by my ideas.

[chance]

I think you feel alienated by my ideas.

Give me a break. Look, that forum (Games in General) was originally a separate forum... but how many topics were about "media analysis"? The reason these topics are rare, is because members just don't post them -- not because of the forum structure.

You should stop worrying about where the sub-forum is "located", and just post some discussion topics. As I said before, I like those type of discussions and I'd participate/contribute if you posted one.

[True Valhalla]

Games Discussion is not moving.

So is there any other point to this topic?

[Snail_Man]

Games Discussion is not moving.

So is there any other point to this topic?

I don't think so

[Dogless]

That is where people can talk about marketing and main stream media communication. Even if it's not strictly distribution related, a topic that is of interest to the general GMC is fine there.

[=(:5/7A!I:)=]

Games Discussion is not moving.

So is there any other point to this topic?

Yes, we can talk about renaming and changing the attitude towards games in general and/or creating a sub-forum for the Distribution forums.
Or, you could create a Sub-Forum called Games Discussion where the Game Design forum is and delete the Sub-Forum under off topic WITHOUT moving it. Betcha dint think of dat!

So as you can see, still many more options.

Edited by =(:5/7A!I:)=, 26 May 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[Terrified Virus]

I think Game Discussion is one of the least important forums on the GMC from a development standpoint. It's in the perfect spot, as a sub forum of Off Topic.

Agreed.

[chance]

So as you can see, still many more options.

Could you describe the types of discussions you want to have? i.e., what subjects you want to discuss?

Maybe that would help us understand why you think a main forum is needed.

[=(:5/7A!I:)=]

Subjects,
look at the Game Design forum and tell me the sorts of topics there, which would be transferable to a Sub-Forum for discussing commercial games.
That would be my basis for describing that half. I think that topics relating to psychology, how to draw players in to an experience, can really benefit from looking into commercial games which set the standards and which have high production costs.

Let's talk about Bioshock Infinite for example. What is this game doing to attract players to the experience? Is there something different in the art style? Perhaps more games will follow. Did the Wii console push developers to think of new ways to create immersive/cinematic experiences? Might these ideas have been borrowed by Xbox and PS3 developers, to try and extend the lifespan of the consoles?
When the value of the pure experience is so much greater than a general commodity, i.e Iphone games VS 3DS games, how will developers with great funding and power compete against eachother and draw new players in?
How does cloud computing affect the industry. If everything is built into the TV eventually, might sony stop producing games consoles? Which companies will suffer?

The other half may be more ambiguous. Media analysis would naturally look at so many media publications and surveys out there. Would we criticize the sources? Given that most articles online have comments sections below and that many game designers come here, it is logical.

So that's what I have. Basically I read a lot of stuff about game design, read a lot of articles, have read a few books. Of couse I don't like to be relied upon and I'm sure there are plenty of others, it's a popular interest.