29 replies to this topic

[Saijee]

Increasing enemy HP will make the time required to kill an enemy increase, which also increases the time it can hurt you, but if the enemy isn't trying any harder than usually to hit the player, it'll be possible to avoid a 10000HP Super Hard enemy with the same ease as a 5000HP Hard enemy.

Here, you're making the assumption that it's no big deal to avoid taking damage. I've been assuming that the enemy is more difficult than that, or that the average player isn't an expert at the game. I've been assuming that the player is probably going to take damage in the base encounter, so an enhanced encounter increases that probability.

I'm not advocating longevity of its own accord, I'm advocating amount of challenge between safe zones or checkpoints. Consider, for example, how much harder Super Mario 3 would have been if there were no checkpoints, or if the levels were twice as long. It wouldn't merely be watching a cutscene to fill time or droning on in some battle, it would be increasing the opportunity for you to die because there are twice as many pits and obstacles between safety. In the same way, on a smaller scale, changing the HP on an enemy can increase the opportunity for you to take damage. It might not, depending on the enemy and the player's technique, but there are definitely places where it can.

Again I'd like to use Kid Icarus as an example. The enemies can be pretty difficult to overcome without taking a lot of damage. That is in the case that you are trying to kill them as fast as possible. But because the enemies have so much more HP and do so much more damage, I find myself just running away and shooting lasers most of the time. This let's me avoid taking much damage while defeating the enemy. But it's a slow and repetitive process. In other words, it's long and boring.

And Implying that you are trying to create a fun game, this just doesn't cut it.

[JAk HAk]

But because the enemies have so much more HP and do so much more damage, I find myself just running away and shooting lasers most of the time. This let's me avoid taking much damage while defeating the enemy. But it's a slow and repetitive process. In other words, it's long and boring.

That doesn't sound fun at all, and sounds like poor design to me. I think patience is something a lot of games should teach their players, but not to the point of boring the player. Yikes!

[Saijee]

That doesn't sound fun at all, and sounds like poor design to me

That is exactly the point I have been trying to make this entire time: Trying to make the game more difficult by giving the enemies more health is not fun at all and makes for poor design.

[JAk HAk]

That doesn't sound fun at all, and sounds like poor design to me

That is exactly the point I have been trying to make this entire time: Trying to make the game more difficult by giving the enemies more health is not fun at all and makes for poor design.

The difference between us is that you're making a blanket statement, saying that it can never be fun. I think there are times when it is still fun, but that this case you've presented is not one of them.

[Saijee]

I think it can be OK to make your enemies have some more HP throughout the course of the game, but HP should not be affected between Easy to Hard mode.

[Yal]

I think there are times when it is still fun, but that this case you've presented is not one of them.

Try to prove your statement by offering a proper example of this, as Saijee has done.

[Spyro Conspiracy Theorist]

What about Dead Space? While I think they completely failed at the increasing health for increasing difficulty method throughout the game, the main difference between the easy, medium, and hard modes is that the enemies take more shots to go down, and there it actually is pretty awesome. Rather than basically just decreasing the effectiveness of your weapons, it makes you have to cut off more limbs! Easy is two limbs, medium 3, etc. So it takes one of the best mechanics of the game, and makes it more important, which also serves to increase the difficulty. Even though all they've technically done is increase the amount of bullets you have to spend on each enemy, they do it in such a way that compliments the strongsuits of the game.

[JAk HAk]

I think there are times when it is still fun, but that this case you've presented is not one of them.

Try to prove your statement by offering a proper example of this, as Saijee has done.

Others may disagree, but I think the final boss in IJI is made harder and still just as fun if you supercharge him. In any of the Ratchet and Clank games, hard modes mean the enemies have more HP, and I always prefer playing them that way. I'll watch my little brother play on easy and cringe and how little work he has to do to plow through enemies, wondering just how it could still be a satisfying experience. But that's the thing: people are satisfied by different amounts and different kinds of difficulties; so, because I don't like FPS's, I played ME3 on narrative mode and pretty much just walked through all of the battles. Yet, in Ratchet and Clank, I enjoy having to be careful with my ammo and make sure that more of it hits my target, and make sure that I get hit less between checkpoints. People just like different kinds of challenges.

[Saijee]

Not sure where your going with this, I just like to kill enemies. If at first I don't know how to kill an enemy because I'm doing it the wrong way that's ok, when the next time I encounter I can find a quicker way to kill him. You should be able to kill the same enemy quicker the better you get. And increasing the max HP just messes up this ideal completely.

Another reason why it was so bad in Kid Icarus, is that as you progress through the game, you earn more and more powerful weapons. But because the enemies would increase their max HP at a faster rate that you would increase your attack power you never felt like you were getting stronger. You actually felt that you were getting weaker.

I guess you could say that there is a certain sense of empowerment I get right after taking down an enemy in record time.

Edited by Saijee, 19 April 2012 - 01:50 AM.

[chance]

I'll watch my little brother play on easy and cringe and how little work he has to do to plow through enemies, wondering just how it could still be a satisfying experience. But that's the thing: people are satisfied by different amounts and different kinds of difficulties...

Certainly true. I tend to play shooter games like your little brother: easy mode. That's because the game aspects I like most are the initial explorations, i.e., just finding all the features, or solving any puzzle aspects. So I don't want to be too distracted by killing enemies.

Only if the game looks interesting, has good graphics and sound, etc. will I re-play it in a harder mode. Like you said, people find satisfaction in different ways.