24 replies to this topic

[Yal]

Title should say it all, but I'll elaborate.


I'm making an engine that randomly generates fun Sonic levels. Do you have any ideas on stuff you want to see in it? For reference, here's a screenshot and a link to a demo I compiled this morning:


Demo EXE: http://www.box.com/s...e8e5zeqv52oup61
Source (GM '81): http://www.box.com/s...auz6emymxc6eduk



I'm planning to have a bunch of "Zone Themes", including Fire, Ice, Tropical Island, Doomfactory, and so on; each level will have a randomly chosen tileset, badnik set, name and music taken from the pile of stuff from that theme.

The basic idea is that you use random_set_seed() with some number you like to generate the entire game, but it's also possible to override stuff to e.g. name zones yourself, or decide badnik set, or decide the hill-to-flats ratio, or decide the pits-per-node ration, and so on; in theory all parameters the level generator uses would be possible to tweak if desired (but if you're lazy, you could just spam out Sonic fangames like there's no tomorrow).



So, what would you like to see in this game? Do you like the idea?

Edited by Yal, 16 February 2012 - 09:10 AM.

[the_bob42]

Great job! Wait.... Is there really that much of a demand for Sonic Fangames?

[YellowAfterlife]

What would be nice to see:
* Physics similar to original game
* Checkpoints
* Ability to import graphics, probably from PNG tilesets, containing graphics of group.
* Bosses. Probably not randomly generated, though it's still possible to variate them.
Good luck with this. Making games that create their own content is hard, but worth of it.

[Adequate]

Did I mention that I'm a fortune teller? In half a year, the gmc will die from ODing on sonic fangames.

[Yal]

Is there really that much of a demand for Sonic Fangames?

My sloppy GM6 "3D Sonic Engine" has over 8600 downloads from Yoyogames, and the downloads-per-month rate is just getting steeper all the time.

* Bosses. Probably not randomly generated, though it's still possible to variate them.

Yes, I'm considering having a bunch of boss "bodies", and each body will have a set movement pattern and a bunch of places to have weapons on. Depending on the difficulty variable of the stage, the boss will use different types of weapons (e.g. replacing standard bombs, that create an explosion sprite that deals contact damage, with bombs that explode into a bunch of bullets that scatter in multiple directions), have more or fewer cannons placed at the "weapon places", and move/fire in different speeds/rates.

But I'll see what I can do about that. I'm pretty sure it would be possible to take a leaf out of Warning Forever's book.

* Physics similar to original game

I've found a good guide for that at Sonicretro.org, it describes exactly how the physics works in the 16-bit games.

* Ability to import graphics, probably from PNG tilesets, containing graphics of group.

The SFGenerator would be distributed as a Lite-friendly .GM81 file, so you can import anything, including objects and stuff, into it.

[the_bob42]

My sloppy GM6 "3D Sonic Engine" has over 8600 downloads from Yoyogames, and the downloads-per-month rate is just getting steeper all the time.

In retrospect, that did seem like a silly question. The only Sonic I vaguely remember is the first one, so I think it'd be fun to have a randomized version. I'm familiar with the random level concept but it's pretty far out of my league, so kudos for pulling that off.

[Yal]

It's actually quite easy to make good randomized Sonic-style levels once you get the physics right. As opposed to Mario games with all their clever level design and hidden secret areas all over, Sonic games are more about quantity, especially since the tempo is so much higher. I'm not entirely done with the generation algorithm, but the test algorithm that basically just fills the level with hill noise (and places enemies, extra platforms, and candy with roughly even spacing) ends up making levels that are actually pretty fun. And they get better all the time as I add in new parameters and counter systems (to make sure that there is a decent space between identical stuff, I have a counter variable, and only when the counter is larger than X nodes it's possible to create a new such thing. Then again, the chance to create said thing may differ, going from a 33% chance for enemies to a 10% chance for extra platform structures)

The hard part will be to judge "difficulty" and somehow quantificate difficulty so that I can nail down exactly what makes a passage of the level X difficulty points. Any ideas?

[Simaster48]

As opposed to Mario games with all their clever level design and hidden secret areas all over, Sonic games are more about quantity, especially since the tempo is so much higher

Objection!
I know you didn't grow up with mega drive but I though you had noticed that the levels actually are well planned!
(Of course I'm talking about the first game here, haven't played so troughoutly with 2 and 3+S&K while thinking about design)

Every zone is designed to give a certain degree of challenge depending on which route you choose, and you're always allowed to change to another one at either possible crosspoints or by clever use of certain traps, their difficulties to access depends totally on the player experience and how secret/usefull they are!

Like that one hidden exit at Spring yard zone act2, most players simply rush by it without noticing its existance and to access it you must jump with good timing from a certain angle on the previous ramp. (You need to know the physics quite well to make it )

Or maybe how greenhill zone is built, thought about what the developers had in mind?
Speed, yes but also to prove the capability of the physics engine and give the players 3 zones with slightly increasingly difficulty as a tutorial!
(And do not ever forget the feeling of freedom you have over choosing your own path along the way, thats a part of the tutorial! )

On a side note, quantity of what?
There are only 19 levels in sonic aside from the additional 7 bonus stages compared to the many levels of the mario games

Do you really want to challenge me when it comes to sonic level design?


Anyway, enough about my reaction on the above.

You have to remember that there are many different types of difficulty we are talking about here, we have the plain factors from how the level looks with traps and areas that require some knowledge on how to reach, the enemies placement and direction as well as their different abilites and cleverness etc...
(There is also the player factor that I will leave uncommented for know, or so I thought... )

All this have to be valued against each other and seen in combination at different times, views and places!
That might give you a total sum of the average difficulty, but I'm not sure since I just lost my own thread here...

[Adequate]

Agreed, you can't just pass level design by - even if random level generators can be controlled to an extent, they won't have the same fine-tuned properties a handmade level has.

Unless it's minecraft, buts that another story

[chance]

Agreed, you can't just pass level design by - even if random level generators can be controlled to an extent, they won't have the same fine-tuned properties a handmade level has.

You missed an important part of Yal's first post. She said "I'm making an engine that randomly generates fun Sonic levels."

So apparently, she's discovered the long-sought-after "fun algorithm".

[Yal]

So apparently, she's discovered the long-sought-after "fun algorithm".

Um, yeah. Exactly.

To put it in a short way, the key thing to do is to identify what makes a level fun and try to quantize it to a bunch of parameters. Once done with that, all you have to do is to make your stage generation algorithm respond to these parameters decently.

I have a hunch about what parameters are used to make Sonic levels fun [for a casual player], all I have to do is to simulate them as accurately as possible. I haven't really implemented all of them in the engine so far (it still mainly creates noise; the finished version will, for instance, not go haphazard between uphills and downhills but use a maximal slope change per node parameter)


Anyway, small update to the demo. I've included a third drawing mode where you can add more than one slope, slope head and so on, allowing slopes of varying steepness to look pixel perfect. Also added parallax background, and now the game will generate random levels, picking either Factory or Tropical as the theme.

[Adequate]

<snip> [for a casual player] <snip>

That's the catch...

but aside from that, kudos for taking the time to do that

[Yal]

That's the catch...

The catch is a lie! My entire target audience are casual players that has never played a 16-bit game in their entire life and thinks His World (Seven Rings In Hand) is a good tune.

Edited by Yal, 15 February 2012 - 09:10 AM.

[Adequate]

off topic, what nationality are you

on topic, that makes sense

[Yal]

off topic, what nationality are you

You lazy bum. Try clicking my name:
http://gmc.yoyogames.com/index.php?showuser=121339

[chance]

off topic, what nationality are you

You lazy bum. Try clicking my name:
http://gmc.yoyogames.com/index.php?showuser=121339

I'm imagining Brunnhilde, as she appears in Der Ring des Nibelungen. Wearing a horned helmet... but maybe not so buxom.

[Yal]

Updated the demo. Now there's item boxes and support for levels with a ceiling. Also added a new drawing system called "graphics fit" and the possibility to add multiple slopes, floors etc. for each level. Next thing to mess around with will be boss battles.

[Kracker_Kid]

wow, this looks pretty good. i can see you have put a lot of work into this. only thing is the levels are a bit too linear. sonic levels always had multiple paths, hidden or in plain view. i might be able to use some of these random generated levels, so thanks for the link in my topic and keep up the good work.

[Yal]

Thanks! ^_____^

I might investigate multiple paths, but that's no key priority at the moment... getting the RNG to work decently is a chore enough as it is. And in any case I would work in loops and other fun structures before sniffing on path branching anyway.

[Yal]

UPDATE to the source. Now features one boss type.

The main idea with bosses are that the boss body moves around somehow, and you create a boss with a random body when the zone is generated. Then, the boss has an array with lots of cannon positions where weapons can be placed; X number of them are selected randomly at stage start-up and are assigned different types of weapons, this is dependent on how difficult the stage is (later stages should be more difficult) and its theme.