110 replies to this topic

[Saijee]

The ideal format doesn't exist.

The question was "what do you think would be the ideal format?" Everyone has ideals.

About your HUD:

White Boxes indicate your life.

Bars for Magic and Skill would not work for different reasons:
Magic in this game is essentially the same thing as Missiles in Metroid. It is convenient to have a solid number indicating just how many more "missiles" you can fire until you run out. Skill cannot be a bar because Skill does not max out, it's this games equivalent to what a normal game would call money (You don't buy weapons or anything, but you spend it on things that make your character have more abilities).

As for enemy shadows, I actually have a good reason why they are not there. Simply put, they don't matter. The reason why you get a shadow is that it can be difficult to judge were the ground is when everything is drawn in 3D, so it helps you predict your landing point. I have noticed when playing games, that shadows seems to be something that only get's noticed once, and after that, they become so normal that you forget about them. So There really isn't any reason that the enemies should need shadows.

The magical attacks all look very bright, but don't show a "shadow" of light on the ground. Also, several special effects show quite a lot of aliasing. Now I don't know how hard it is to remove that aliasing, but it stands out quite a bit. Also, I wonder if your game uses dynamic lighting. The ground looks a bit too bright compared to the dark, gloomy sky.

This game doesn't use lighting or shading, witch was something that was decided in order to give this game a specific artistic feel. The lack of shading brings more emphasis on shape and color than form and space. Also I don't really see why aliasing is a big problem, and what do you mean "several" special effects?

Now I know this is an early alpha screenshot

Not really, more like 5 years into the project.

Edited by Saijee, 12 February 2012 - 11:34 PM.

[Yal]

Hmm...I personally feel that the "money" should display in the bottom-left corner; in the middle of a heated boss battle (and stuff) you typically won't focus on your cash supply. You only need to check it when you're going to buy something.

With that said, since you get money by playing skillfully, it would be nice with small text popups on the screen when you get a bunch of skillpoints, especially when you combo/mega-cash-in a lot of them.


What is that metal sun thing for? In one way, it just takes up screen space. I think it would be a bit prettier if you moved it up a bit, so that the leftmost life point rectangles would slightly overlap it.

[greep]

I don't think screen space saving is a big issue, as the top third of the screen doesn't look like it's going to see any action anyways. Seems like a fighting"ish" game, and they're known for fluff at the top.

Now that I've seen your game, I don't think you need portraits, the art is quite good . Especially if it is a fighting game, since portraits would just make it feel less personal. In other game genres, you're focusing more on strategy and enemies in your surrounding less than your immediate figure, so I don't think you identify so much with your avatar as you do in fighting games, in which your eye is constantly on yourself.

[Saijee]

Yal, they are called "Skill" points because you use them to get more "skills." But the way they work is simple, you can find bit's of them all around the level, like finding rupees in Zelda. But you can get more, a lot faster by defeating enemies.

Defeating enemies will raise your Skill by a set amount, but notice those green balls of light? Normally if you play then enemies will drop these, these ususally can amount to about half the value of Skill enemies automatically give you. So you can get even more of it. The notation in the game, only shows you how much skill that you have collected in that mission, if you die in that mission, than in the end you won't raise your overall Skill points by anything (a la paper mario). If you fail a mission twice, the game will give you a handicap, half of the extra skill points that enemies drop will be replaced with life "life shards" most enemies will only drop between 1-3 life shards. If you fail a mission four times, than enemies will stop dropping extra skill, and instead drop "life bricks" which is 1 hole unit of life. You earn less skill points because it shows that you have less skill at the game if you had to use these handicaps to beat the mission.

Also the "metal-sun" is your energy bar. Some skills would be break the game if they had no limits, so you get this dial to stop you short. For example, notice in the second picture, Aaron has an armor suit? You can think of this armor suit as being fairly similar to Mario's Metal Cap, while in the Armor Aaron cannot take any damage. But to activate the armor you must hold a button for a while, and the energy bar will show you how long you have it held, if you hold it down for 1 second than you are granted 3 seconds of armor, if you hold it down for 2.3 seconds you get 10 seconds of armor. But much like SSB style shields if you hold it down for too long than you get penalized. Once you let go of the button, the energy bar will indicate how much longer you can sustain the armor.

It is important that the bar is big, so that it is easy to monitor even when your not looking at it. And don't worry Yal, it actually looks very pretty in game, because it's fully animated. All people who test my game find it to be quite an entrancing and unique way to display the energy bar.

Greep, while the combat of the game is very fighting'ish it is a Metroidvania platformer, with levels that will lead you in all directions, there are also a bunch of vertically oriented parts of the game to, as you have abilities like wall-jumps and grapple beam that can grapple onto every wall, ceiling and floor in the game. But screen space is not an issue as you have said, if you need more space, the screen will simply zoom out.

Especially if it is a fighting game, since portraits would just make it feel less personal. In other game genres, you're focusing more on strategy and enemies in your surrounding less than your immediate figure

Actually not really, this game is designed to where button mashing = death. And several enemies behave real different and extremely aggressive and violent, strategy is a big part of the battle system in this game, and your likely to play more effectively if your eyes are on your foes.

[EdgeV]

As for enemy shadows, I actually have a good reason why they are not there. Simply put, they don't matter. The reason why you get a shadow is that it can be difficult to judge were the ground is when everything is drawn in 3D, so it helps you predict your landing point.

In that case, I'd say a blue, red or green circle (or whatever color) around the landing point your character works better. Enemy shadows DO start to matter when your character has one.

This game doesn't use lighting or shading, witch was something that was decided in order to give this game a specific artistic feel. The lack of shading brings more emphasis on shape and color than form and space.

I wonder what specific artistic feel you're trying to achieve with this. If you're making a 3D game, I'd say form and space are much more important for the 3D feel. I'd prefer a game world that feels immersive rather than a constant reminder that I'm looking at a flat screen showing only pixelated shapes and colors.

Also I don't really see why aliasing is a big problem, and what do you mean "several" special effects?

Aliasing isn't a problem? Simple games made in Flash are anti-aliased. This game isn't. Especially nasty is the contrast between smoothly blended visuals and edgy (haha) aliased visuals. The red rays in the first picture are a good example of this. You can almost count the pixels in the center. The green balls of skill aren't especially pretty either. They look rather hexagonal and cartoonish, as if they're imported from a 256 color image. And the red particles from a killed enemy look like paper cuttings from a preschool drawing class.

I'd say aliasing is definitely a problem in this game. It doesn't look pretty.

Edited by EdgeV, 13 February 2012 - 10:53 PM.

[Saijee]

In that case, I'd say a blue, red or green circle (or whatever color) around the landing point your character works better. Enemy shadows DO start to matter when your character has one.

Seriously, not really. If you played the game, you'd only notice this once. In a still image it stands out easy, but if your actually playing the game, you hardly notice it after you've seen it once.

I wonder what specific artistic feel you're trying to achieve with this. If you're making a 3D game, I'd say form and space are much more important for the 3D feel. I'd prefer a game world that feels immersive rather than a constant reminder that I'm looking at a flat screen showing only pixelated shapes and colors.

Simply put, removing the shading makes everything look flatter.

The green balls of skill aren't especially pretty either

I'll change this, but only because your the second person to point that out. What did you have in mind? It cannot be a brick shape or an octahedral.

And the red particles from a killed enemy look like paper cuttings from a preschool drawing class.

Now I'm not implying anything, but in case your wondering, it's not supposed to be blood. While a picture might be able to say 1000 words, only a few of them would accuratly describe what's going on in the context of a video game like this, witch bends toward a much more heavy emphasis on animation than anything in terms of graphics. That being said: those particles are actually something that make this game look much more detailed than a normal platformer: When an demon is killed in this game it shatters into shards that are the same color as the demon, like so:


It looks really good animated, and the sound effect completes the effect. The reason why the particles were all red was simply because the enemy that was destroyed was also completely red.

I still stay that AA is not important. Nintendo still doesn't use it.

[Visor]

People appreciate consistency. If something has a shadow, so should everything else (unless there's good justification for it not having one, by which I mean an in-story explanation and not just 'couldn't be bothered'). Shadows do, as you mentioned, help the player gauge where things are going to land. Unless all the enemies are on the ground, it's useful to have a shadow where an enemy is going to land as well.

[Adequate]

Nintendo don't use antialiasing... Yeah, and Nintendo dont make the prettiest graphics ever. Compare Wii Sports Resort to the UE3 tech demo. I wonder which one looks better?

AA is important for just about every 3D game. There is a point where players will notice and their experience in computing will not matter when they say 'the graphics look edgy and jagged'.

I mean, even 2x AA is good enough.

[Saijee]

People appreciate consistency. If something has a shadow, so should everything else (unless there's good justification for it not having one, by which I mean an in-story explanation and not just 'couldn't be bothered'). Shadows do, as you mentioned, help the player gauge where things are going to land. Unless all the enemies are on the ground, it's useful to have a shadow where an enemy is going to land as well.

The actual reason why enemies don't have shadows is because it makes the game more likely to lag with fewer enemies on screen. Yes people will notice that enemies don't have shadows, but I highly doubt the reaction will be like this:

"What the heck? Why am I the only thing with a shadow!?" *RAGE QUIT*

It's something you will notice only once, and then you will get used to it.

Enemies don't need a shadow to determine where they will land, because you can use your own shadow as a reference point. Enemies would only need shadows if it played as a 3D platformer, witch it doesn't.

Conclusion: The lack of shadows on enemies does not detract from the gameplay.

Nintendo don't use antialiasing... Yeah, and Nintendo dont make the prettiest graphics ever. Compare Wii Sports Resort to the UE3 tech demo. I wonder which one looks better?

AA is important for just about every 3D game. There is a point where players will notice and their experience in computing will not matter when they say 'the graphics look edgy and jagged'.

That might be true, but it sure as heck was never a reason why people didn't buy Nintendo games. But if it really really really really bothers you in I could add AA as an optional feature that you can toggle on/off at any point in the game. I just think it will increase the chance of lag.

I actually think AA makes graphics look strange:

Edited by Saijee, 14 February 2012 - 07:26 PM.

[EdgeV]

I'll change this, but only because your the second person to point that out. What did you have in mind? It cannot be a brick shape or an octahedral.

I'd say completely round. Just a lens flare or a texture with a transparent halo around it can look good as well. Since it's round and completely symmetrical, it doesn't matter from which angle you view it.

I must say the green particles look much better in this picture. The edges are of a different color, which enhances the 3D feel. I think it will look a lot better if you implement that on the red particles as well.

I could add AA as an optional feature that you can toggle on/off at any point in the game. I just think it will increase the chance of lag.

That is a very good idea by the way.

[greep]

So... this thread is about dialogue... not slamming one of the best art in GM games ever. Saijee loves making threads, so why not wait till he makes an art opinion thread? I mean, unless you want like the offtopicness Saijee

[Saijee]

So... this thread is about dialogue... not slamming one of the best art in GM games ever. Saijee loves making threads, so why not wait till he makes an art opinion thread? I mean, unless you want like the offtopicness Saijee

You know what? Your technically correct, I forgot that this thread had a different topic myself... Now I remember, I guys showed you some images of the game to give you an idea of how the in game art looks.

I'll prolly make a topic specifically for graphics at some point, but I'm kinda entertained by this thread right now. And I think it's actually going in a constructive direction.

not slamming one of the best art in GM games ever.

I appreciate the compliment, but I do believe that good, helpful, criticism is golden. Even if sometimes I do feel like a lot of it is complaining that a regular orange is not the same as a tangerine.

Just a lens flare or a texture with a transparent halo around it can look good as well. Since it's round and completely symmetrical, it doesn't matter from which angle you view it.

I'll see what I can do.

[Saijee]

And there you have if folks, a better graphic for skill points:

[Yal]

And there you have if folks, a better graphic for skill points:

They're really sweet! My first impression was "Whoa, shiny! I wanna eat them!"

[Saijee]

Thanks Yal. It's good to know that the graphic I use for pick ups makes you want to get them.

So. I was about to make a topic about dialog, when I realized Hold on, I have a topic titled that already. So now I'd like to present an idea that imposes a new challenge on the idea of video game dialog.

Ok my idea is *drum roll please* : The difficulty you set your file to at the start of the game will affect the dialog.

Spoiler

As some of you may know, I'm a brony, I got the idea when I stumbled upon a fan's orignal take on the show. (Since the episodes are not much shorter than the orignal episodes, I'd hardly call it abridged) My Little Pony: Friendship is Witchcraft used the same animations, but orignal music and voice acting to tell the story in a different way (They even included orignal singing parts with actual catchy music).

I've yet to actualy input dialog in my game, not because I don't know where to start, but because the possibilities are so vast and there are so many different good ways I can think of executing it. The problem is that as it is one game I only get one shot at executing it. Then I realized, that that might not be true.

Here was my thinking:

Easy mode: This would tell the story in more or less the same tone as Paper Mario.

Normal Mode: This would tell the story in a much more jokingly way (Lot's more sarcasm and some dark humor).

Hard Mode: This version would still have jokes in it, but the overall tone would be much more serious (this is also the cannon version).

You might go as far as saying Easy mode is the censored version of Hard mode. Some worlds might have different names and actually look graphically different. Entire episode (An episode is 1 world) plots could be changed.

Where as Normal mode would have dialog seeming much more like it was an abridged youtube series. Entire characters could be changed drastically too. Just for example: one NPC you saw in easy mode might now make hydroloc noises as he moves, and when you talk to him he has a robot voice.

Personally I think this would be hilarious, and would also give players an incentive to beat the game on all difficulties.

[Yal]

Hey, that's a really good idea there! Many games just have different endings, and players who want to see them all usually look them up on Youtube. Unless that game gives you a special unique reward for each ending and you want to catch 'em all.

A (sorta) different plot for each difficulty, though, sounds pretty sweet, especially when you throw sarcasms into the mix. I'm not entirely sure about your setup, though... Won't most players play the game on the lowest difficulty level first because they know they know nothing about how to play this game? With that in mind, most players would remember the easy mode plot the most and see that as the "canonized" version because that's the one they saw first.

Thinking like that, it would make more sense to let Easy mode have the serious plot, and then on higher levels the game gets more fun, also encouraging players to get better on the game because they wanna hear all jokes.

Obviously, it feels like the highest difficulty of the game should take itself hilariously seriously, and that everyone should speak in cool one-liners and be cooler than on the lower difficulties. With that in mind, you have like two options:

Easy -> Lv 1 humour
Normal->Lv 2 humour
Hard -> Serious

OR

Easy -> Serious
Normal->Lv 1 humour
Hard -> Lv 2 humour
EXTRA-> Lv 2 Serious


What d'ya think about that?

[Zeddy]

That does seem pretty neato, but I'd be stuck on easy and normal to check out the other story varieties. :<

[Yal]

That does seem pretty neato, but I'd be stuck on easy and normal to check out the other story varieties. :<

Knowing that Saijee has Japanese blood, though, and has already made a 3D Danmaku, slightly promises that even the Easy level of this game will be difficult enough for you.

Of course, I don't know enough about the particulars to be able to actually promise that.

[Saijee]

Easy mode will be easier than easy mode on Iji.

Because I don't want to get into the topic of difficulty to much, let me just say that I do not intend to make this a game that frustrates the gamer. There are a bunch of things that I have put into the game that do manage to dilute the difficulty without making it less fun and without taking out the core value of how the game is meant to be presented at that difficulty level.

In short: If you have beaten easy mode you should be able to beat normal mode, and if you have beaten normal mode you should be able to beat hard mode.

To put the difficulty of the game from start to finish on a graph would look something like this:

E:-------------------------
N:............------------------------------
H:..............................-------------------------------------

Easy -> Lv 1 humour
Normal->Lv 2 humour
Hard -> Serious

OR

Easy -> Serious
Normal->Lv 1 humour
Hard -> Lv 2 humour
EXTRA-> Lv 2 Serious

While it may be true that easy would be the first. I was thinking that people would attempt the other difficulties anyway because it would tell you on the menu that deciding difficulty will also affect the dialog. And upon starting hard mode the first thing that will come up on screen is a note that says "This is the cannon story" to eliminate any controversy the fans could mustard up.

One problem you said was that players would want to see the other difficulties for the humor. Well let me elaborate for you:

Easy mode is the censored version of the story, some aspects will be completely missing from the story.

Normal mode will show the world exactly as it is presented in easy mode but with a bunch of changes made to characters backgrounds, affiliations, and dialogs and personalities.

So if you've beaten both easy and normal mode why would you want to try hard mode? Because it's the truth. It's not going to be hilariously serious, it's going to be scary serious.

Hard mode is going to scare the crap out of you.

Entire settings for some worlds will be drastically different graphically, and with that completely different plots will reveal the truth too.

Here is an example that I think we should be able to all get. Hyrule Market: If Hyrule market were in my game, then in easy mode it would look like the past version (happy and lively) and in hard mode it would look like the future version (ruined and dead plus different music/ambient noise) .

That's not to say that the cannon version of my game is in some post-apocalyptic world were zombies roam around. But there may be a number of areas that show that much of a difference in the mood.

So for any gamer who has beaten all 3 difficulties they should get a Twilight Zone-like "Woah" reaction.

Edited by Saijee, 01 March 2012 - 06:55 PM.

[=(:5/7A!I:)=]

Hi Saijee,

People like to see their characters fully fleshed out. Higher detail is usually more static.
I don't think the art for dialogue makes or breaks the game, unless it is really bad.