110 replies to this topic

[Saijee]

It's nice to see that a lot of consideration went into the gameplay. Yet it is only a fraction of the amount of consideration that went into the gameplay of Super Smash Bros Brawl.

Since you weren't on the team that made that, you can't say that for sure. Sakurai himself, said that " I did all the balanacing myself. "

Editing for Edgev-------

Your game won't be suffering from the same annoyances as Super Smash Bros Brawl. Your game will have its own flaws instead. How much those flaws distract from the gameplay depends on many factors, for example how critical your beta testers are.

I actually have two extremely critical alpha testers, one of witch is the fifth best Smash Bros Brawl player in state. And one of my beta testors is extremely familiar with regular fighting games and Castlevania. Not going to lie, I've come up with some ideas that I thought were pretty sound, that looking in retrospect were pretty stupid, and have been removed because of the play testers would give me legitimate reasons as to why something was either confusing, annoying or just flat out a bad idea.

And it's those things which will determine whether your game will really best a game that is widely considered to be one of the best games of 2008.

your statement is invalid, people don't like SSBB because of it's story mode, people like it for the multiplayer.

The graphical style, the way I expect it moves, the sizes of the characters in relation to the view, the perspective from which the game is played, and the difficulty a player might have in following a cutscene of either kind taking the other factors into account.

Please explain individually why these factor into your judgement, while I go into more detail about them myself.

Graphical Style- How would you categorize this?

Graphical Movement- I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Character Size on screen and Perspective- The images show the camera in a particular battle event. The camera is by no means in a fixed position, and will zoom in and out depending on how far your foe is. I can also choreograph the camera to do specific things for cutscenes if need be, Like zoom in a lot closer than it would in game play, and position itself to where it so that you are viewing the world from a dramatic angle. The possibilities are endless.

Difficulty following- Like what?

Edited by Saijee, 08 February 2012 - 06:06 PM.

[Visor]

I'm not trying to be hostile. I'm trying to advise you, not stir things up; I think he's doing the same. As you requested, I'll talk you through how each of those factors influenced the decision.

In terms of graphical style and expected movement (that is, how I would expect the game to move in terms of speed, fluidity and physics with only screenshots to go on), I wouldn't favour or exclude either option, as it doesn't seem to lend itself to or distance itself from either of those. Character sizes and perspective are also based on the screenshots, and therefore don't factor in the specifics of the camera which I didn't know. The last part is just a view on which style would be easier for the player to follow, based on the other factors. Based on the above, I decided that portraits would look better in my view.

Edited by Visor, 08 February 2012 - 07:42 PM.

[Saijee]

hostile? Did I ever imply that I thought you were?

Look, I'm not trying to be defensive, but when someone starts pointing something out and I don't understand it, than I want to know what they mean instead of pretending like I get their point. So I ask more about it.

[Visor]

Like you said, you seemed a little bit defensive. You've explained that, so that's fine.

If the camera is as flexible as you reckon it is, I'd probably support animated cutscenes, or a combination of the two. If you were to use portraits, would they be taken from the models or drawn separately?

[Saijee]

I still don't know why you would think it's defensive, unless you were reading it with a tone that wasn't there. But like I said, if I don't understand something, I will keep asking about it until it is cleared up.

I'd probably support animated cutscenes, or a combination of the two. If you were to use portraits, would they be taken from the models or drawn separately?

I should clear up something. I honestly don't see why you guys like portraits so much. I find it to be a bit confusing when there is both an in game graphic being animated and an up front portrait making faces. It's like ... having double vision.

If I did use portraits they'd most likely be hand drawn.

[EdgeV]

I should clear up something. I honestly don't see why you guys like portraits so much. I find it to be a bit confusing when there is both an in game graphic being animated and an up front portrait making faces. It's like ... having double vision.

It depends... If it's a full-body portrait, it will look double and weird. If it's just a mugshot, it will blend in quite nicely.

[Yal]

It's sorta painful to read five screens of you guys not understanding each other.

If I understand correctly, the topic goes like this:


Saijee: Which one of these do you prefer and WHY?

Some other guys: Pick whichever one it's the easiest to make, silly!

Saijee: Both of them are easy! I'm asking about your personal opinion!

Some other guys: Whoa, stop it! There's no need for you to get angry!

Saijee: No, I'm not angry.

Some other guys: Oh, I see. Well, in that case... both of them are bad. Use the fourth option.





Anyway...

I took the idea of ______, listed all the things I didn't like, and fixed them.

I'm thinking of making this into a sig! :]

[EdgeV]

It's sorta painful to read five screens of you guys not understanding each other.

Yes, a shame isn't it? Things would be so much better if we just answered the question with a simple answer.

When it really doesn't matter WHICH style of dialog you implement. It's more important HOW you implement it. Most of us aren't explicity in favor of one or the other -especially- because it depends a lot on how it is implemented.

If there's anything he needs, it's suggestions and input on HOW to implement either option. And there is plenty of such good advice to be found where you can only see "you guys not understanding each other."

Saijee has stated he wants to make the game as good as possible. He'd be wise to take these suggestions to heart.

[Yal]

If there's anything he needs, it's suggestions and input on HOW to implement either option.

It's obvious that you don't know Saijee as good as I do.

[Saijee]

From my perspective, all that matters is the output.

[Visor]

I honestly don't see why you guys like portraits so much.

I don't, particularly. I just think they work okay with certain types of game. A detailed mugshot with more detail than the sprite or model itself looks okay in my view.

[Adequate]

It depends.

How story based is your game?

Do you have enough character animations?

Do you want dialogue to become more like scenes in a movie, or scenes in a book?

[Saijee]

In order:

I take it most people who play the game will be playing it for the gameplay. But story and dialog is about 30/100 of the game. I'd like to get the player to know the important characters well.

Yes.

Movie, I never liked the idea of "leaving it up to your the viewers imagination."

[Yal]

Yeah, ending up with a bad game because you're lazy is a pretty bad idea. However... it's important to try to cut corners where you can, so that you don't have to work more than you have to.

For instance, writing a routine to collide with tiles is a bit on the timely side compared to using the built-in collision checking system, but you'll eventually get it back since you cut down level design time with 50%.


Hmm... If I haven't said it, in my opinion detailed character art and a dialogue box is the best way to go. Not only is it easier to code, detailed character art is cool and there's a lot of cool little effects you can add to the images (e.g. add lens flares and dynamic shading and stuff in GIMP/photoshop to make them look neater; use surfaces and add a small, barely visible black/white noise on the faces and dialog box for a bit of creepyness/movieness (depending on how it's applied, blend mode, etc)).

If you're good at making art - which you've stated you are (and proved, in that comic topic) - I think you're better off using that talent and drawing lots of cool faces, poses, and talk backgrounds instead of pouring your time into making camera-movement cutscenes and stuff for the in-game-graphics type of conversation.

[Saijee]

*Nodes with eyes closed* Well, you've certainly given reasonable points to back up your post.

Regarding that and this:

If there's anything he needs, it's suggestions and input on HOW to implement either option. And there is plenty of such good advice to be found where you can only see "you guys not understanding each other."

Saijee has stated he wants to make the game as good as possible. He'd be wise to take these suggestions to heart.

And considering the images I posted earlier on how the game looks, what do you think would be the ideal format. As in:
Where should text be placed, should it be dark text on light text box of vice versa. And how much of the characters should be visible in the portraits and how much of the screen should the portraits take up.

[Adequate]

It's your game. Personally I'd make a different game, or make this game differently.

In the end you gotta weigh out the pros and cons of everything and figure it out.

[Saijee]

It's your game. Personally I'd make a different game, or make this game differently.

In the end you gotta weigh out the pros and cons of everything and figure it out.

I don't know if I would call that feed back because it doesn't answer anything.

Of course I have my own opinions and preferences. But I am the person making the game, witch means I only have a limited view point. The reason why I ask is to collect more view points.

[fluffydino2000]

I think you should use the portraits at key moments in the game, before a boss battle or something, and use the other method for the majority. That way, the player can focus on the game play, but when you are trying to tell the story, people will listen.

[9_6]

You could also use mugshots in the textbox.
For lack of a better example right now:

[EdgeV]

And considering the images I posted earlier on how the game looks, what do you think would be the ideal format. As in:
Where should text be placed, should it be dark text on light text box of vice versa. And how much of the characters should be visible in the portraits and how much of the screen should the portraits take up.

The ideal format doesn't exist.

I'd say dialog boxes generally look better at the bottom of a screen. Subtitles in a movie are normally at the bottom of the screen as well. And having the dialog at the bottom of the screen fits in more with your game since your HUD information is at the top of the screen. Even if you hide HUD information during a cutscene, which I strongly recommend.

Considering your game has 3D visuals, I'd make the dialog boxes transparent. In that case, the text looks best when it's white, although you could always experiment with a few important characters having different text colors.

About your HUD: I don't know what purpose those white boxes serve at the top of your screen. I'd hide those until something useful is visible in them. And once they do serve a purpose to the player, I'd make them transparent.

Separate bars for the magic and skill stats look much better than a pair of numbers and a slash. If you really want to display numbers, draw them on top of the bar.

And it looks a bit weird how the main character has a shadow, but the enemies don't have a shadow. (Which doesn't seem to decrease in size when the character jumps, which also looks weird). The magical attacks all look very bright, but don't show a "shadow" of light on the ground. Also, several special effects show quite a lot of aliasing. Now I don't know how hard it is to remove that aliasing, but it stands out quite a bit. Also, I wonder if your game uses dynamic lighting. The ground looks a bit too bright compared to the dark, gloomy sky.

Now I know this is an early alpha screenshot and issues like those will probably be fixed by the time it's released, but I still felt like mentioning it.