110 replies to this topic

[Visor]

If you do portraits, you technically only need to draw each portrait once.

You only need to draw one sprite for each character in an animated cutscene, but the result usually wouldn't be particularly good. A scene presented with a single portrait for each character would only look marginally better in my view. Both approaches do the job, but only to a basic standard.

If you're satisfied with a single portrait for each character, or numerous portraits with only minor changes in expression, it might be easier to create, depending on your art skills. If you'd prefer to use dozens of huge, full-body, expressive sprites for the portraits, which can get across emotions and actions in a similar way to animated cutscenes, it's a lot of work.

Edited by Visor, 08 February 2012 - 12:03 AM.

[EdgeV]

I fail to see how that argument can be made.

If you do portraits, you technically only need to draw each portrait once.

Where as if you do things with in game graphics, you would need to have every action timed correctly, to work as a vehicle for story telling. Like so:

Josh: Come on everybody, we are almost there.

*Josh gestures to the left

Nick: We've been walking for hours, I think I'm going to die.

* Nick faints.

* Josh looks at him and there is a pause.

* Josh face palms himself.

If you used still portraits, you'd have to design new portraits for every new things that happens. Or else it will look really stupid.

It's more work than having your character sprite facepalm itself.

[Saijee]

If you used still portraits, you'd have to design new portraits for every new things that happens. Or else it will look really stupid.

What are you talking about?

Fire emblem made it look fine with no more than 2-3 portraits per character, plus blinking and mouth moving.

It's more work than having your character sprite facepalm itself.

Missing the point. The point of the example was to illustrate that everything would scenerio would need to be timed correctly, like a play in a theater.

[EdgeV]

What are you talking about?

Fire emblem made it look fine with no more than 2-3 portraits per character, plus blinking and mouth moving.

Have you ever seen a facepalm in Fire Emblem? I haven't.

Missing the point. The point of the example was to illustrate that everything would scenerio would need to be timed correctly, like a play in a theater.

That's quite easy to implement. Program it so that everytime somebody says something, the game waits until the user pushes a key and you don't have to worry about timing anymore. In a good cutscene, it usually doesn't last long before somebody says something.

[Saijee]

Have you ever seen a facepalm in Fire Emblem?

Actually kinda. There are a number of times where it says " *Sigh* " witch leads lots of people to believe that at that moment that character was face palming.

That's quite easy to implement. Program it so that everytime somebody says something, the game waits until the user pushes a key and you don't have to worry about timing anymore. In a good cutscene, it usually doesn't last long before somebody says something.

You could but it depends. Because it can become really complicated, especially when your trying to get a character to move toward a particular point in 3D space.

Edited by Saijee, 08 February 2012 - 12:24 AM.

[greep]

Honestly it just doesn't matter. However, if you note the first two examples, they are done out of necessity. Dialogue with fire emblem tactical sprites would be laughable, same with whatever that one bullet hell game was called.

Btw, is it just me, or does anyone else think "I'm 12 and what is this?" when they look at the 4th example? Especially considering the disinterested "Yeah.... uh...." expression of the floating person.

Edited by greep, 08 February 2012 - 07:42 AM.

[Yal]

Suggestion: Saijee, use these images from a more well known game instead of the touhou images:




Both examples features Toad talking to Mario, but using different graphic styles. Should make the point come across a lot better than some games at least two people so far evidently haven't played.

[Visor]

You could but it depends. Because it can become really complicated, especially when your trying to get a character to move toward a particular point in 3D space.

Using portraits can also become difficult, if you're using a lot of them and they're of high quality.

Have you considered that people might find it easier to program a timeline than to draw a load of portraits? Or to draw gameplay sprites than to draw portraits? Programming and graphics are two different disciplines.

[Yal]

Have you considered that people might find it easier to program a timeline than to draw a load of portraits? Or to draw gameplay sprites than to draw portraits?

Likely not, since Saijee is asking for advice about HIS OWN PARTICULAR GAME without giving a damn about what other developpers plan to do.

[Visor]

I did gather that; it was rhetorical. I just through it might help him; in retrospect, I should probably have checked a few more things first. Sorry if it gets your back up.

Edited by Visor, 08 February 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[EdgeV]

Both examples features Toad talking to Mario, but using different graphic styles. Should make the point come across a lot better than some games at least two people so far evidently haven't played.

Was that aimed at me? Are you looking for a fight?

Dialogue with fire emblem tactical sprites would be laughable

I think dialogue looks quite fine with just the standard battle sprites in Final Fantasy 5.



And it's definitely not hard to create funny or engaging cutscenes with sprites that are only 16 pixels wide and tall.





The more elaborate your character art is, the harder it will be to pull this off. The result will be a game that might have stunning realistic graphics, but no sense of humor at all.

Edited by EdgeV, 08 February 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[Saijee]

Likely not, since Saijee is asking for advice about HIS OWN PARTICULAR GAME without giving a damn about what other developpers plan to do.

Kinda want to make that into a sig. *rates up*

Well, first, let me apologise if my approach got your back up. All I'm trying to do is help him understand something, for his benefit. Nothing else.

It's not you in particular, but it does annoy me when I have to restate all of the contributing factors. Long story short:

I'm different, and my situation is different.
1) I find it easier to animate drawings than sprites (as in I cannot sprite anything other than lasers and explosions)
2) I started as an artist who got into game design. I could draw all the portraits in my game in 2 days if I wanted to.
3) My game doesn't even use sprites, it uses 3D models, that being said i wouldn't even need to draw portraits, I could simply make a rendered image of the 5000-polygon version of their model.
4) The only benefit I am interested in is making sure my game is the best possible game it can be. In terms of graphics, there is nothing that I cannot do within a reasonably short amount of time. I have no obligation to cop out taking short cuts.

Greep brought up a good point, that there are reasons behind the particular styles. So let me inform you about how things look in my game. The game looks like this:



In terms of how it plays, it's a metroidvania style game, it's also comparable to Smash Bros Brawl's Story Mode, but funner because the stages and enemies are designed around the characters abilities and there are only 2 characters. But there is a lot more dialog in this game, than in SSBB.

[Visor]

It's not you in particular, but it does annoy me when I have to restate all of the contributing factors.

I wasn't aiming that at you specifically.

I do realise that some people would find it easier to work with your methods. I wasn't aware that it was using models; in those circumstances, it probably is easier to use portraits.

Edited by Visor, 08 February 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[Saijee]

It probably is easier to use portraits.

But the question is: Witch looks better.

[EdgeV]

Portraits are definitely a better choice for such a game.

If you don't animate everything perfectly, the animations will look extremely clumsy.

Which, of course, is a lot of work. Too much work if you ask me. It really isn't worth the tiny extra bit of appreciation you'd get for it.

4) The only benefit I am interested in is making sure my game is the best possible game it can be.

If you obsess too much about graphical eye-candy, it -will- be especially lacking in other, more important areas of game design.

it's a metroidvania style game, it's also comparable to Smash Bros Brawl's Story Mode, but funner

Look, I know you're excited about your game, but I'd wait with making such bold statements until it's finished and the first reviews are in.

[Visor]

Witch looks better.

I'd need to watch it in action to say for certain, but from what I can gather, probably portraits.

[Saijee]

Mind elaborating what you gather?

Editing for Edgev-------

Which, of course, is a lot of work. Too much work if you ask me. It really isn't worth the tiny extra bit of appreciation you'd get for it.

No it isn't. Not for me. If there is one thing I'm proud about for my game, it's the animations.

If you obsess too much about graphical eye-candy, it -will- be especially lacking in other, more important areas of game design.

Not really. The gameplay works perfectly. I've had several people play test it and find it addictive fun. I could probably have no eye candy in the game at all and it still pass as a good game, but I don't want that. I want this game to be as great as it possibly can be. And graphical presentation in the eye candy is a big factor in that.

Look, I know you're excited about your game, but I'd wait with making such bold statements until it's finished and the first reviews are in.

Smash Bros Brawl Story mode wasn't fun for a number of reasons. Simply put. It was a good idea, and sounded good when they were talking about it on their web site. But it simply wasn't what it could have been. it felt slow and clunky. Enemies were annoying as heck to fight. And platforming puzzles were non-existent to dry.

I took the idea of SSE, listed all the things I didn't like, and fixed them.

My enemies run on non-random AI, making them predictable. They can still fight incredibly brutally, but because they are predictable, they are not annoying.

Second is that the game is designed to where you are never actually vulnerable. You can always get out of any animation by doing some other animation. Effectively making it the players fault for not getting out of the way, and not the games fault for not letting the player have the opportunity to get out of the way. Further more, enemies cannot combo the player, because the worst gaming experience is when you feel like you have absolutely no control over a situation, witch is something I took great effort to avert. On the other hand you can combo all the enemies.

Lastly platforming challenges are very alive in this game. I've taken the liberty of adding a bunch of various hazards from Super Mario World, because so many people have been able to create a bunch of neat challenges, as has been seen from rom hacks. There are only two characters in this game, and the worlds are designed to challenge their abilities.

Edited by Saijee, 08 February 2012 - 05:04 PM.

[Visor]

The graphical style, the way I expect it moves, the sizes of the characters in relation to the view, the perspective from which the game is played, and the difficulty a player might have in following a cutscene of either kind taking the other factors into account.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to some animation being used.

[twelveways]

I would probably combine the two.If a main character is talking to a main character then a the game pauses and a portrait box appears in each corner with the dialoge written like:

Player: Im here to slay you!
NPC: That's what you think!

Then the game would unpause and the NPC would attack the player and the dialogue boxes would close. This way you dont lose the immersion but you get the detail tha you get in portrait.

[EdgeV]

Editing for Edgev-------

It's nice to see that a lot of consideration went into the gameplay. Yet it is only a fraction of the amount of consideration that went into the gameplay of Super Smash Bros Brawl.

Your game won't be suffering from the same annoyances as Super Smash Bros Brawl. Your game will have its own flaws instead. How much those flaws distract from the gameplay depends on many factors, for example how critical your beta testers are.

And it's those things which will determine whether your game will really best a game that is widely considered to be one of the best games of 2008.