96 replies to this topic

[makerofthegames]

Sorry for being so anvilicious.

[Rusty]

Are you trying to justify piracy?

Spoiler

No. Piracy is wrong.

Are you promoting piracy?

Spoiler

No. I was just explaining why Steam makes piracy more appealing. From experience I can tell you that the average pirate has a fairly dull life and loves a challenge, let's take a look at what Steam has to offer a pirate:

- Big Titles
- Challenging Security
- Annoyed Users

Now, that's more than enough reasons for a pirate to spend his time cracking the hell out of every game on the system, along with that there is the chance to make money by re-selling the games without the Steam restrictions, which if sold legitimately, I would buy.

Let's have a look at why people would want these games pirated:

- Steam logs your gameplay. It's like have a security camera on my game screens and I do... not... like... it...
- Modding capabilities
- Offline mode (Apparently Steam has an Offline mode that I can't use)
- No regular Internet access, I want to install the game on a computer without the internet, oh no, Steam makes that impossible

I'm sure there are other complaints against Steam. And a lot more reasons for people to turn to piracy rather than go to Steam.

Why so anti-Steamist?

Spoiler

Because if I wanted Steam I would go here:
http://store.steampowered.com/about/

But I don't want Steam, so instead it decides it will force me on the system.

Edited by Rusty, 10 January 2012 - 03:42 AM.

[Cakefish]

Steamworks is very convenient for me.

I can buy a game at retail, often for cheaper than Steam Store pricing, and still activate on Steam!

[icuurd12b42]

[this is its own topic now]
http://gmc.yoyogames...=0#entry3888623


Here is my 2 cents about steam and piracy. After all I did work for the company that invented the method steam likely uses...

First, claiming that steam prevents piracy. Well, it does limit the damages because most consumers would rather be legit than not, but it will never eliminate it.

The factors that limit piracy are:
-The price of the product. This is where most distributors fail as they always want to milk as much as possible. Charging the same price for online content as in stores. Even if the online distribution method costs way, I mean way way less than the old shelve method. Or charging 75$ in a locale that, oddly enough, people make that little money in a month but yet still have access to computers.

-The morality of the person that wants the product vs his self deserving factor

-The availability of the content (online or not). BTW, if any big distributor out there reads this, if you are not on steam, you are an idiot.

-The ingenious level of the person who wants the game. That is really no longer a factor.

-The inconvenience of the anti-piracy method. This was thought to be the huge factor by the geeks evaluating the method in my days. But in reality, this factor is sooo close to nil when you consider that most people don't even know what the heck is going on anyway.


Basically, only the 2 first factors count today. Most are online, most don't care of the underlying technical details, most are not geeks

But here is the big kicker which I do hope steam and all those publishers will one day consider... The world is changing and the kind of users we are turning into is big factor. We are all turning into a bunch of self righteous deserving demanding babies. And ya know what, it not our fault. We want stuff, we deserve it, it's there, there is soooo much stuff now, we want it all. It is impossible to have it all today at the prices we have to pay.

I estimated, a while back, how much money I spent on computers, tvs, monitors, laptops, dvd players, cassettes, floppies, games, dvds, blue ray disks, blue ray players, consoles.... I spent in 20 years about 200000 to 400000$ (it hard to tell, but 10000$ a years is about right) for this stuff. And that was in the infancy of product diversity until today... You can see the self righteous deserving part here being justified. Even if the hardware cost vs income is way less today, no one can possibly keep up with the wave of stuff with the current system


Back to steam, thank to it, I am not a sw pirate but I do have to wait for the deals to come up.


Now I do hope the publishers adopt the Netflix model, by publishers, I mean the publishers of all content possible, from movies to games to software to music. I think 10$-20$ a month would be a reasonable price to pay to access all the content ever created. There would be no more piracy and everyone would profit properly.

[icuurd12b42]

I moved the Alternative Distribution discussion to a dedicated topic...

http://gmc.yoyogames...=0#entry3888623

[RacingFan14]

I have never downloaded Steam, never used it, and think it's a waste to require Steam. Before Steam, you just buy the disc, put it in the computer and play.

[Bytewin]

I have never downloaded Steam, never used it, and think it's a waste to require Steam. Before Steam, you just buy the disc, put it in the computer and play.

Already established, man...

[Helios Machina]

The reason Steam is so successful, is because of the fact that it provides a good service. They virtually have no problems with piracy, simply because the majority of people can't be bothered when it's much easier to just buy the game on Steam. The philosophy behind this, is that piracy is not necessarily something people do entirely out of economic reasons, but simply because most platforms like windows live, actually provides a pretty bad service. I personally have had no problems with Steam at all, all of my games are accessible in my library, I've never seen games this cheap ANYWHERE else, I can practically run anything that I've already installed because of offline mode, and finally, if you switch computers, your whole library comes with you as long as you just log in once on the other unit and save your details (you can even install single-player games on several computers and play on them simultaneously as long as the external accounts run in offline mode, which means that you can still play LAN games, which is great if you have a multi-player game that no-one else has at some LAN party). This accessibility is the reason why people love it so much, because of the simplicity and how easy it is to just practically access everything you own, regardless of where you are. To be honest, I think the people who realized that piracy is a service-related issue are complete geniuses. Most people are more than willing to support the developers of a game by buying it, and simply by using Steam, doing so is suddenly both cheaper AND just about as easy as clicking a button. So maybe the ones who truly despise it simply out of some past experiences, should have a second go at it. If you're having problems with the local servers, there's a huge cloud network where you can switch around. I'm just saying this because some of these "reviews" of the platform seems slightly biased, so I just wanted to include my own thoughts as to why I think the opposite, instead of just stating that I DO think the opposite.

[Rusty]

Steam is great, I clearly haven't been keeping with the topic, blah, blah, blah.

That's all very nice and uneducated but sadly, invalid. Some issues:

- This isn't a discussion about why Steam is "so successful", it's "why it's forced, not optional"

- Steam has had piracy issues, everything has piracy issues, stating otherwise automatically makes you naive

- Piracy is always cheaper, and if you have a look, Stream is actually more expensive than disc games especially since Valve can't count and think $1 = £1

- You've actually just admitted to committing piracy by sharing your content with people who don't legally own it for your "LAN parties"

- People who think piracy is a service issue clearly have no idea what they are on about. Piracy is a "because I can and there is opportunity" issue

- You failed to mention the modding restrictions which are, for the most part, the sole reason I buy PC games over console

- All your points are invalid as they explain why you like Steam, not why it should be a requirement, so weldone, you've added nothing to this discussion

- Some of these "biased" reviews are no more "biased" than your own since you've failed to accept any fault with the Steam system, therefore making your entire post biased and according to you, that makes it invalid

Edited by Rusty, 25 January 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[chance]

Steam is great, I clearly haven't been keeping with the topic, blah, blah, blah.

That's all very nice and uneducated but sadly, invalid

...stating otherwise automatically makes you naive

...so weldone, you've added nothing to this discussion

Jesus Rusty, relax. Machina was just speaking his own views. No reason to make this personal.

On Topic:
Steam forces their system on customers to keep them "in the store" longer. THAT'S why they use it. Consumer research shows the longer customers spend in store, the greater their chances of buying. This is why supermarkets often put common items like milk/eggs/bread at the back of the store. This forces customers to walk through the store -- increasing their chances of buying something else while they're there.

The Steam "business model" works the same way: keep players attached as long as possible. This is also why Steam taps into the social network craze. Steamworks users can join groups, chat, access the net, play games... and stay attached. That's their goal.

Requiring customers to play through the Steam forces customers to come back frequently -- which increases their chances of buying more games. And it obviously works. Nothing wrong with profit. Customers always have other options.

.

Edited by chance, 25 January 2012 - 05:03 PM.

[Helios Machina]

@Rusty

Well I'm sorry if it doesn't seem like I've contributed with anything, I didn't mean to provoke any kind of aggressive response. I just stated why it doesn't bother me. But look a bit into their data and you'll see that they have less piracy issues than pretty much any other large digital distributor. It's not something that doesn't exist, because of course someone wants to have everything for free and those people doesn't cease to exist simply by pressing a button. But it's fine that you state how you feel about my response, just be careful not to make it too personal, not everyone takes things like that as lightly as I do But modding restrictions? Well yes, there are a few, but it's nothing too taxing, usually only if you want to completely revamp a game. However this also depends on the developer. But I get your point, and I'm sorry that I can't tell you WHY it's forced, I can only tell you that I personally like the practical side of having a steam account and that I'm not having any problems with it. I actually prefer when I can register on Steam as well as having a physical copy, just like they did with F.E.A.R. 2 and Skyrim. Although, I wouldn't say that my "entire post is invalid", that is really jumping to an unnecessary conclusion which in itself is pretty biased. However, I don't hope that stating my mind like this has given you a negative impression of me, I meant no harm with anything I said

[Rusty]

I just re-read my own post and it seems an awful lot more brutal than I ever intended it to be... the GMC makes me evil. I don't know why but I have no people skills, at all.

Let me rephrase them so it doesn't look like I'm just murdering members:

- I can understand why Steam is so successful, I just don't get why they have to force their successful selves on customers who don't want to use Steam

- I can actually find every game Steam has as a pirated copy.

- Piracy is usefully free, and therefore, always cheaper, also, Valve hates non-US customers for some reason

- Sharing your games with friends via Steam is still piracy in itself, even if it's for multiplayer purposes

- Yes, service is an issue when it comes to piracy but not the main problem at all

- Modding is limited

- Whilst you have commented about Steam, you don't really seem to understand the concept of this topic. It's not about liking Steam or not, it's about why it's forced not optional

- Stating that the opposition is bias whilst failing to give a balanced review is also bias

Re-reading my previous comment I kind of get why people here think I'm a complete nutter, which is debatable but beside the point. Yeah, sorry about that, didn't actually mean to verbally kill you. As I said, no people skills.

[chance]

I just don't get why they have to force their successful selves on customers who don't want to use Steam

Because their business model is successful, that's why. Phenomenally successful. Steam has 40 million active accounts, and it's estimated to control 70% of the digital distribution market. Read this article by Chris Graft on Gamasutra.

With stats like that, it's pretty clear their strategy is working: capture customers and force them to return frequently, as I described above. Obviously, that leads to more repeat sales, over a conventional online store. (Reason #1 why it's not "optional")

Plus, they've successfully marketed their "play through Steam" system as a DRM solution to some VERY big publishers. These publishers see Steam's model as a big advantage over conventional DRMs required for traditional online sales. (Reason #2 why it's not "optional")

Steam would be stupid to change anything right now.

.

Edited by chance, 25 January 2012 - 08:06 PM.

[Rusty]

<Snip>

Oh chance, always so logically and well informed. Making me have to work to find a solid reason to disagree with you.

For once let's pretend you said "Steam is awesome because it is good". Bad chance! Bad! Leave now!

[makerofthegames]

I think it's the other way around. To me, steam is good because it's awesome. If it was awesome because it was good that would require it to be good, and well, being forced on someone isn't good. But it is awesome, in that it's very convenient once it is forced on you.

Problem?

[negative1]

steam doesn't sound awesome for single player games,
or for offline play without internet.. thats about 99%
of the gameplay scenarios for me..

later
-1

[Helios Machina]

Well, I can see why it wouldn't be very awesome if you really don't like it, despite my own "oooh, shiny!" attitude towards it :3 Being able to choose is always important, even if that involves letting people choose not to use your product if they don't want to. That might give slightly less publicity, but it won't give you negative feedback either. Of course, Steam is so huge that it probably isn't really a concern for them though, and the majority of players don't mind it (the mindless mob, people like me who just wants everything on a silver plate, lol).

[negative1]

Well, I can see why it wouldn't be very awesome if you really don't like it, despite my own "oooh, shiny!" attitude towards it :3 Being able to choose is always important, even if that involves letting people choose not to use your product if they don't want to. That might give slightly less publicity, but it won't give you negative feedback either. Of course, Steam is so huge that it probably isn't really a concern for them though, and the majority of players don't mind it (the mindless mob, people like me who just wants everything on a silver plate, lol).

you've just circled the original premise of the argument
against steam.

many people are not getting any choice if they want
a game that is on steam but don't want to register online.
they are not getting out of using steam even if they want to just play
single player offline mode. they are not getting any advantage of
registering with steam, or using any of the other 'benefits',
because they have no use for them.

it's not that i don't like them. i am neutral towards the concept.
but if they force it as a requirement, then it pushes it over
to the negative side.

later
-1

Edited by negative1, 26 January 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[Bytewin]

Well, I can see why it wouldn't be very awesome if you really don't like it, despite my own "oooh, shiny!" attitude towards it :3 Being able to choose is always important, even if that involves letting people choose not to use your product if they don't want to. That might give slightly less publicity, but it won't give you negative feedback either. Of course, Steam is so huge that it probably isn't really a concern for them though, and the majority of players don't mind it (the mindless mob, people like me who just wants everything on a silver plate, lol).

you've just circled the original premise of the argument
against steam.

many people are not getting any choice if they want
a game that is on steam but don't want to register online.
they are not getting out of using steam even if they want to just play
single player offline mode. they are not getting any advantage of
registering with steam, or using any of the other 'benefits',
because they have no use for them.

it's not that i don't like them. i am neutral towards the concept.
but if they force it as a requirement, then it pushes it over
to the negative side.

later
-1

I'm starting to question why this thread was created. You guys do know you all agree on the fact that it is not a good action, you just disagree on why Steam does this... And occassionally blast at each other about how much Steam sucks and whatnot that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
That being said, I'm gonna hunker down and get ready to hold off the incoming waves of attackers:

Is this a moral thing to do? No
Is it a smart thing to do? Yes
Would you do this if you were Valve's CEO? You know it
Do you think Steam cares about an obscure forum somewhere in the internet and a thread that isn't visited 1/1000th of the times Steam is? Definitely not
Do you guys think you're going to change anything? No
So why are you ranting, knowing this thread is almost clearly made for people to argue? I have no idea.

[Helios Machina]

@Bytewin

I have to agree with you there, lol. But all in all, if you actually want to use Steam, like I do, and you have a library of games on there-... Then you probably won't mind that another game goes on there, really. I'm fairly certain that it mainly pisses people off who doesn't want to have a client with a single game in it, because that would be silly. But when you start having a couple in there (I personally have a couple of hundred), you'd kinda want all your games to be there. But I believe we have come to a conclusion then-... or something along the lines of that :3