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Why is Steam a requirement, and not optional?


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#61 makerofthegames

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 02:37 AM

Sorry for being so anvilicious. :P
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#62 Rusty

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 03:41 AM

Are you trying to justify piracy?
Spoiler


Are you promoting piracy?
Spoiler


Why so anti-Steamist?
Spoiler

Edited by Rusty, 10 January 2012 - 03:42 AM.

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#63 Cakefish

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 10:46 PM

Steamworks is very convenient for me.

I can buy a game at retail, often for cheaper than Steam Store pricing, and still activate on Steam!
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#64 icuurd12b42

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 01:46 AM

[this is its own topic now]
http://gmc.yoyogames...=0#entry3888623


Here is my 2 cents about steam and piracy. After all I did work for the company that invented the method steam likely uses...

First, claiming that steam prevents piracy. Well, it does limit the damages because most consumers would rather be legit than not, but it will never eliminate it.

The factors that limit piracy are:
-The price of the product. This is where most distributors fail as they always want to milk as much as possible. Charging the same price for online content as in stores. Even if the online distribution method costs way, I mean way way less than the old shelve method. Or charging 75$ in a locale that, oddly enough, people make that little money in a month but yet still have access to computers.

-The morality of the person that wants the product vs his self deserving factor

-The availability of the content (online or not). BTW, if any big distributor out there reads this, if you are not on steam, you are an idiot.

-The ingenious level of the person who wants the game. That is really no longer a factor.

-The inconvenience of the anti-piracy method. This was thought to be the huge factor by the geeks evaluating the method in my days. But in reality, this factor is sooo close to nil when you consider that most people don't even know what the heck is going on anyway.


Basically, only the 2 first factors count today. Most are online, most don't care of the underlying technical details, most are not geeks

But here is the big kicker which I do hope steam and all those publishers will one day consider... The world is changing and the kind of users we are turning into is big factor. We are all turning into a bunch of self righteous deserving demanding babies. And ya know what, it not our fault. We want stuff, we deserve it, it's there, there is soooo much stuff now, we want it all. It is impossible to have it all today at the prices we have to pay.

I estimated, a while back, how much money I spent on computers, tvs, monitors, laptops, dvd players, cassettes, floppies, games, dvds, blue ray disks, blue ray players, consoles.... I spent in 20 years about 200000 to 400000$ (it hard to tell, but 10000$ a years is about right) for this stuff. And that was in the infancy of product diversity until today... You can see the self righteous deserving part here being justified. Even if the hardware cost vs income is way less today, no one can possibly keep up with the wave of stuff with the current system


Back to steam, thank to it, I am not a sw pirate but I do have to wait for the deals to come up.


Now I do hope the publishers adopt the Netflix model, by publishers, I mean the publishers of all content possible, from movies to games to software to music. I think 10$-20$ a month would be a reasonable price to pay to access all the content ever created. There would be no more piracy and everyone would profit properly.
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#65 icuurd12b42

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 01:48 AM

I moved the Alternative Distribution discussion to a dedicated topic...

http://gmc.yoyogames...=0#entry3888623
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#66 RacingFan14

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:51 PM

I have never downloaded Steam, never used it, and think it's a waste to require Steam. Before Steam, you just buy the disc, put it in the computer and play.
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#67 Bytewin

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 10:00 PM

I have never downloaded Steam, never used it, and think it's a waste to require Steam. Before Steam, you just buy the disc, put it in the computer and play.


Already established, man...
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#68 Helios Machina

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 06:01 AM

The reason Steam is so successful, is because of the fact that it provides a good service. They virtually have no problems with piracy, simply because the majority of people can't be bothered when it's much easier to just buy the game on Steam. The philosophy behind this, is that piracy is not necessarily something people do entirely out of economic reasons, but simply because most platforms like windows live, actually provides a pretty bad service. I personally have had no problems with Steam at all, all of my games are accessible in my library, I've never seen games this cheap ANYWHERE else, I can practically run anything that I've already installed because of offline mode, and finally, if you switch computers, your whole library comes with you as long as you just log in once on the other unit and save your details (you can even install single-player games on several computers and play on them simultaneously as long as the external accounts run in offline mode, which means that you can still play LAN games, which is great if you have a multi-player game that no-one else has at some LAN party). This accessibility is the reason why people love it so much, because of the simplicity and how easy it is to just practically access everything you own, regardless of where you are. To be honest, I think the people who realized that piracy is a service-related issue are complete geniuses. Most people are more than willing to support the developers of a game by buying it, and simply by using Steam, doing so is suddenly both cheaper AND just about as easy as clicking a button. So maybe the ones who truly despise it simply out of some past experiences, should have a second go at it. If you're having problems with the local servers, there's a huge cloud network where you can switch around. I'm just saying this because some of these "reviews" of the platform seems slightly biased, so I just wanted to include my own thoughts as to why I think the opposite, instead of just stating that I DO think the opposite.
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#69 Rusty

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:23 AM

Steam is great, I clearly haven't been keeping with the topic, blah, blah, blah.

That's all very nice and uneducated but sadly, invalid. Some issues:

- This isn't a discussion about why Steam is "so successful", it's "why it's forced, not optional"

- Steam has had piracy issues, everything has piracy issues, stating otherwise automatically makes you naive

- Piracy is always cheaper, and if you have a look, Stream is actually more expensive than disc games especially since Valve can't count and think $1 = £1

- You've actually just admitted to committing piracy by sharing your content with people who don't legally own it for your "LAN parties"

- People who think piracy is a service issue clearly have no idea what they are on about. Piracy is a "because I can and there is opportunity" issue

- You failed to mention the modding restrictions which are, for the most part, the sole reason I buy PC games over console

- All your points are invalid as they explain why you like Steam, not why it should be a requirement, so weldone, you've added nothing to this discussion

- Some of these "biased" reviews are no more "biased" than your own since you've failed to accept any fault with the Steam system, therefore making your entire post biased and according to you, that makes it invalid

Edited by Rusty, 25 January 2012 - 11:25 AM.

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#70 chance

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 01:21 PM


Steam is great, I clearly haven't been keeping with the topic, blah, blah, blah.

That's all very nice and uneducated but sadly, invalid

...stating otherwise automatically makes you naive

...so weldone, you've added nothing to this discussion

Jesus Rusty, relax. :tongue: Machina was just speaking his own views. No reason to make this personal.

On Topic:
Steam forces their system on customers to keep them "in the store" longer. THAT'S why they use it. Consumer research shows the longer customers spend in store, the greater their chances of buying. This is why supermarkets often put common items like milk/eggs/bread at the back of the store. This forces customers to walk through the store -- increasing their chances of buying something else while they're there.

The Steam "business model" works the same way: keep players attached as long as possible. This is also why Steam taps into the social network craze. Steamworks users can join groups, chat, access the net, play games... and stay attached. That's their goal.

Requiring customers to play through the Steam forces customers to come back frequently -- which increases their chances of buying more games. And it obviously works. :wink: Nothing wrong with profit. Customers always have other options.

.

Edited by chance, 25 January 2012 - 05:03 PM.

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#71 Helios Machina

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 04:30 PM

@Rusty

Well I'm sorry if it doesn't seem like I've contributed with anything, I didn't mean to provoke any kind of aggressive response. I just stated why it doesn't bother me. But look a bit into their data and you'll see that they have less piracy issues than pretty much any other large digital distributor. It's not something that doesn't exist, because of course someone wants to have everything for free and those people doesn't cease to exist simply by pressing a button. But it's fine that you state how you feel about my response, just be careful not to make it too personal, not everyone takes things like that as lightly as I do :) But modding restrictions? Well yes, there are a few, but it's nothing too taxing, usually only if you want to completely revamp a game. However this also depends on the developer. But I get your point, and I'm sorry that I can't tell you WHY it's forced, I can only tell you that I personally like the practical side of having a steam account and that I'm not having any problems with it. I actually prefer when I can register on Steam as well as having a physical copy, just like they did with F.E.A.R. 2 and Skyrim. Although, I wouldn't say that my "entire post is invalid", that is really jumping to an unnecessary conclusion which in itself is pretty biased. However, I don't hope that stating my mind like this has given you a negative impression of me, I meant no harm with anything I said :D
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#72 Rusty

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 07:11 PM

I just re-read my own post and it seems an awful lot more brutal than I ever intended it to be... the GMC makes me evil. I don't know why but I have no people skills, at all.

Let me rephrase them so it doesn't look like I'm just murdering members:

- I can understand why Steam is so successful, I just don't get why they have to force their successful selves on customers who don't want to use Steam

- I can actually find every game Steam has as a pirated copy.

- Piracy is usefully free, and therefore, always cheaper, also, Valve hates non-US customers for some reason

- Sharing your games with friends via Steam is still piracy in itself, even if it's for multiplayer purposes

- Yes, service is an issue when it comes to piracy but not the main problem at all

- Modding is limited

- Whilst you have commented about Steam, you don't really seem to understand the concept of this topic. It's not about liking Steam or not, it's about why it's forced not optional

- Stating that the opposition is bias whilst failing to give a balanced review is also bias

Re-reading my previous comment I kind of get why people here think I'm a complete nutter, which is debatable but beside the point. Yeah, sorry about that, didn't actually mean to verbally kill you. As I said, no people skills.
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#73 chance

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 07:57 PM

I just don't get why they have to force their successful selves on customers who don't want to use Steam

Because their business model is successful, that's why. Phenomenally successful. Steam has 40 million active accounts, and it's estimated to control 70% of the digital distribution market. Read this article by Chris Graft on Gamasutra.

With stats like that, it's pretty clear their strategy is working: capture customers and force them to return frequently, as I described above. Obviously, that leads to more repeat sales, over a conventional online store. (Reason #1 why it's not "optional")

Plus, they've successfully marketed their "play through Steam" system as a DRM solution to some VERY big publishers. These publishers see Steam's model as a big advantage over conventional DRMs required for traditional online sales. (Reason #2 why it's not "optional")

Steam would be stupid to change anything right now.

.

Edited by chance, 25 January 2012 - 08:06 PM.

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#74 Rusty

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 08:25 PM

<Snip>

Oh chance, always so logically and well informed. Making me have to work to find a solid reason to disagree with you.

For once let's pretend you said "Steam is awesome because it is good". Bad chance! Bad! Leave now!
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#75 makerofthegames

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 08:53 PM

I think it's the other way around. To me, steam is good because it's awesome. If it was awesome because it was good that would require it to be good, and well, being forced on someone isn't good. But it is awesome, in that it's very convenient once it is forced on you.

Problem?
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#76 negative1

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 11:03 AM

steam doesn't sound awesome for single player games,
or for offline play without internet.. thats about 99%
of the gameplay scenarios for me..

later
-1
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#77 Helios Machina

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 07:55 PM

Well, I can see why it wouldn't be very awesome if you really don't like it, despite my own "oooh, shiny!" attitude towards it :3 Being able to choose is always important, even if that involves letting people choose not to use your product if they don't want to. That might give slightly less publicity, but it won't give you negative feedback either. Of course, Steam is so huge that it probably isn't really a concern for them though, and the majority of players don't mind it (the mindless mob, people like me who just wants everything on a silver plate, lol).
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#78 negative1

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 08:42 PM

Well, I can see why it wouldn't be very awesome if you really don't like it, despite my own "oooh, shiny!" attitude towards it :3 Being able to choose is always important, even if that involves letting people choose not to use your product if they don't want to. That might give slightly less publicity, but it won't give you negative feedback either. Of course, Steam is so huge that it probably isn't really a concern for them though, and the majority of players don't mind it (the mindless mob, people like me who just wants everything on a silver plate, lol).


you've just circled the original premise of the argument
against steam.

many people are not getting any choice if they want
a game that is on steam but don't want to register online.
they are not getting out of using steam even if they want to just play
single player offline mode. they are not getting any advantage of
registering with steam, or using any of the other 'benefits',
because they have no use for them.

it's not that i don't like them. i am neutral towards the concept.
but if they force it as a requirement, then it pushes it over
to the negative side.

later
-1

Edited by negative1, 26 January 2012 - 08:43 PM.

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#79 Bytewin

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 01:11 AM


Well, I can see why it wouldn't be very awesome if you really don't like it, despite my own "oooh, shiny!" attitude towards it :3 Being able to choose is always important, even if that involves letting people choose not to use your product if they don't want to. That might give slightly less publicity, but it won't give you negative feedback either. Of course, Steam is so huge that it probably isn't really a concern for them though, and the majority of players don't mind it (the mindless mob, people like me who just wants everything on a silver plate, lol).


you've just circled the original premise of the argument
against steam.

many people are not getting any choice if they want
a game that is on steam but don't want to register online.
they are not getting out of using steam even if they want to just play
single player offline mode. they are not getting any advantage of
registering with steam, or using any of the other 'benefits',
because they have no use for them.

it's not that i don't like them. i am neutral towards the concept.
but if they force it as a requirement, then it pushes it over
to the negative side.

later
-1


I'm starting to question why this thread was created. You guys do know you all agree on the fact that it is not a good action, you just disagree on why Steam does this... And occassionally blast at each other about how much Steam sucks and whatnot that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
That being said, I'm gonna hunker down and get ready to hold off the incoming waves of attackers:

Is this a moral thing to do? No
Is it a smart thing to do? Yes
Would you do this if you were Valve's CEO? You know it
Do you think Steam cares about an obscure forum somewhere in the internet and a thread that isn't visited 1/1000th of the times Steam is? Definitely not
Do you guys think you're going to change anything? No
So why are you ranting, knowing this thread is almost clearly made for people to argue? I have no idea.
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#80 Helios Machina

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 07:50 AM

@Bytewin

I have to agree with you there, lol. But all in all, if you actually want to use Steam, like I do, and you have a library of games on there-... Then you probably won't mind that another game goes on there, really. I'm fairly certain that it mainly pisses people off who doesn't want to have a client with a single game in it, because that would be silly. But when you start having a couple in there (I personally have a couple of hundred), you'd kinda want all your games to be there. But I believe we have come to a conclusion then-... or something along the lines of that :3
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#81 Rusty

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 04:49 PM

I'm starting to question why this thread was created. You guys do know you all agree on the fact that it is not a good action, you just disagree on why Steam does this... And occassionally blast at each other about how much Steam sucks and whatnot that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

You haven't been at the GMC long have you?
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#82 Omega Metroid

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 10:15 PM

There are plenty of advantages to Steam, heck, I really don't see these issues you're complaining about.

Are you guys suggesting a game isn't allowed to try and deter piracy? Lets be honest, if you're going to have any form of DRM at all, which publishers really find attractive, then Steam is probably the best way to go. It's well designed, user-friendly, and supports commercial and indie games alike. It's pricing can be sketchy, but they offer great deals seasonally. It's performance can be spotty, but it performs well enough that their user base isn't up in arms constantly. And it works as a great way to interact with friends, the community, and sometimes even the developers themselves.

There are other methods, but CD keys are defunct, dongles failed outright, and server authentication can be spoofed or circumvented easily. As of right now, one of the best methods to deter piracy is by making it more comfortable to use legitimate software.

if you've got a better idea, the industry would really like to hear it.
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#83 Bytewin

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 01:31 AM


I'm starting to question why this thread was created. You guys do know you all agree on the fact that it is not a good action, you just disagree on why Steam does this... And occassionally blast at each other about how much Steam sucks and whatnot that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

You haven't been at the GMC long have you?


Just because it's a usual occurrence doesn't mean it's not stupid :verymad:
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#84 Rusty

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 03:16 AM



I'm starting to question why this thread was created. You guys do know you all agree on the fact that it is not a good action, you just disagree on why Steam does this... And occassionally blast at each other about how much Steam sucks and whatnot that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

You haven't been at the GMC long have you?


Just because it's a usual occurrence doesn't mean it's not stupid :verymad:

I'll give you that one! :lol:
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#85 negative1

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 06:31 PM

if you've got a better idea, the industry would really like to hear it.


it's not necessarily better..
how about.. as an OPTION
---------------------------
1 NO INTERNET CONNECTION needed for single player

2 NO NEED TO INSTALL A CLIENT for the game for single player

3 NO DRM for single player

do whatever you want with multiplayer, online, etc.

is that hard to do?

later
-1
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#86 makerofthegames

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 07:01 PM

1 NO INTERNET CONNECTION needed for single player

[...]

3 NO DRM for single player

1 There is an offline mode, although, there isn't really a very large number of people without internet, at least, without internet and buying video games.

3 That's not a great idea. Who ever said people only pirate multiplayer games? Why would there be no DRM for single player games?
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#87 negative1

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:49 PM


1 NO INTERNET CONNECTION needed for single player

[...]

3 NO DRM for single player

1 There is an offline mode, although, there isn't really a very large number of people without internet, at least, without internet and buying video games.

3 That's not a great idea. Who ever said people only pirate multiplayer games? Why would there be no DRM for single player games?


1 your point is irrelevant.. whether i have internet or not.. i don't always have access to it,
so why should i be tethered to sign in, to validate single player?

3 people pirate ALL games, single or multiplayer... in fact, some games on steam have 2 layers of DRM,
the one with the game, and steams....

not to start yet another debate... the person wanted to know ALTERNATIVES to what was out there now.

these are alternatives.... put a serial number on the game (sticker) or in a booklet, have me call a number.
there are ways to do it, WITHOUT HAVING TO REQUIRE AN ACCOUNT BE CREATED ON THEIR SYSTEM..

later
-1
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#88 makerofthegames

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 10:10 PM

1 your point is irrelevant.. whether i have internet or not.. i don't always have access to it,
so why should i be tethered to sign in, to validate single player?

3 people pirate ALL games, single or multiplayer... in fact, some games on steam have 2 layers of DRM,
the one with the game, and steams....

1. You must have internet to log onto Steam, while you have internet, you can activate offline mode and now when you get offline you can play your games. Your argument is invalid.

3. That has absolutely nothing to do with my point. You said to remove DRM on singleplayer games, and now it seems we both agree that that's stupid. If you're against DRM, be against it on all fronts. Why would only singleplayer games be easy to pirate?
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#89 negative1

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 10:38 PM


1 your point is irrelevant.. whether i have internet or not.. i don't always have access to it,
so why should i be tethered to sign in, to validate single player?

3 people pirate ALL games, single or multiplayer... in fact, some games on steam have 2 layers of DRM,
the one with the game, and steams....

1. You must have internet to log onto Steam, while you have internet, you can activate offline mode and now when you get offline you can play your games. Your argument is invalid.

3. That has absolutely nothing to do with my point. You said to remove DRM on singleplayer games, and now it seems we both agree that that's stupid. If you're against DRM, be against it on all fronts. Why would only singleplayer games be easy to pirate?


1. you're arguing in circles...
read it again.. I DONT ALWAYS HAVE ACCESS TO THE INTERNET..

don't you see how that prevents me from playing the game?

also... your basic premise is flawed... the poster wanted to know ALTERNATIVES TO STEAM,
not use steam, or make it mandatory...

3. in that case, remove DRM FROM BOTH single and multiplayer.. the reason i didn't care
about multiplayer or online, is because i don't play any games that require it.. and single
player games are easier to pirate, because you don't need to replicate all the tricky online
stuff, and fake server things/accounts/etc..

final point : there are alternatives to tying games to internet accounts or activations,
companies choose not to do so because of laziness

later
-1
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#90 makerofthegames

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 11:14 PM


1 There is an offline mode, although, there isn't really a very large number of people without internet, at least, without internet and buying video games.

1 your point is irrelevant.. whether i have internet or not.. i don't always have access to it,
so why should i be tethered to sign in, to validate single player?

1. You must have internet to log onto Steam, while you have internet, you can activate offline mode and now when you get offline you can play your games. Your argument is invalid.

1. you're arguing in circles...
read it again.. I DONT ALWAYS HAVE ACCESS TO THE INTERNET..

don't you see how that prevents me from playing the game?

What the heck are you talking about? Do you stop reading my arguments once you see the word 'internet' in them? I'm giving you the answer to your problem here, and you're pretending that I'm not. The first time you register and get into steam you must be on the internet. So, activate offline mode and then you'll never have to have access to the internet again.

I never said you ALWAYS HAVE TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE INTERNET, I said you must have access to it once then every other time YOU MAY PLAY WITHOUT YOUR ACCESS TO THE INTERNET. You just have to activate that mode, once.

If you don't understand even this time, I'm not going to say it again.

Edited by makerofthegames, 28 January 2012 - 11:16 PM.

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