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#101 baconman

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:33 PM

I say simply do away with "newer" Lite versions. 8.0 Lite stays the way it is, available, and ALL new features and development goes entirely into Pro/Standard edtions. The "Lite version" business model has already accomplished what it set out to do - make GM well-known and respected as a gamedev software that's approachable. That part's already done now.

Secondly, you can start "selling" ready-made object kits for popular gaming archetypes, so that people using the Pro edition and have more money to contribute to a project than time can put that to work for both themselves and YoYo; making a "unique" looking object is as simple as making a Child object, and associating it with a new, external sprite. This ESPECIALLY goes for making player and AI characters, arguably the hardest element of gamedev altogether. Plus, this gives users a near Klik-and-Play simplicity in developing titles, and detailed examples of how stuff in GML works (and easily editable ones, at that).

That's a whole, additional potential market all it's own, in fact. Plus, it's a way of making more income from a market that already DOES support you. ;)

You can also consider scrapping MP3/OGG support in the Lite version, forcing them to resort to old-standard file formats such as WAV (huge) or MIDI (not the most detailed stuff); or making the playable EXE resort to 16-bit color, distorting the graphical quality of some titles.

And finally, I would suggest that EXE's and GMK's made in Lite produce an anomaly in the transition screen, leading a 3-second-per-transition "false loading screen" advertisement alternating between GameMaker (no mention of "Pro" or "Lite"), the object packs (with a quippy little screenshot or two?), and "Support your game developers." It's one thing where some gamedev's are skimping out, but there are people out there with a bucketload of talent and they're fighting impossible financial conditions right now. The sooner the "better" group of people can get external support for their efforts, the sooner they can contribute to YoYo Games' as well.

Edited by baconman, 31 March 2011 - 11:36 PM.

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#102 GearGOD

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:35 PM

Do NOT address me like that. Ever.
[...]
I was pretty clear there that you should NEVER address me like that.


There's some good self-help books I can recommend for managing that ego.

Edited by GearGOD, 31 March 2011 - 11:35 PM.

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#103 sabriath

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:57 PM

I hate the way these forums are programmed.....dangit I lost all my post because of a network glitch.

I'll try and sum up what I had written 5 paragraphs of: Make GM 7.0 pro free, and charge for 8.1 standard upgrade (as newer versions come out, reduce the price of older versions until they drop off the edge of demand and make them free).

Upsides:
- Everyone is given the chance to be hooked in the world of programming and making games...allowing them to learn the process in an easy-to-do manner
- Those who cannot afford the steep price of upgrading can stick around until it gets reduced or get a job (whichever comes first)
- Stability of selling volume...as seen by the same tactics that other big companies use like Blizzard, or the Car industry (as the product gets old and newer versions come out, the price of the old reduces in order to get rid of it.....the good side is that GM is software, so you have endless supply)

Downsides:
- You'll have to make 7.0 pro free...the loss of sales based on people willing to stay in that product is probably going to be the same loss of the people who would hack/crack GM anyway, so this is more of a push


*copy to clipboard just in case...and...post*



edit:

There's some good self-help books I can recommend for managing that ego.

That's not ego that he's using...that's demand for respect. Mike is going out of his way to create a topic and discuss a feature in the software that the community is interested in....to piss him off while he's being nice is hardly ego. I like you GG, but tread lightly, or you may be next with the banstick.

Edited by sabriath, 01 April 2011 - 12:01 AM.

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#104 paul23

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 12:02 AM

Well I just thought a bit about how everything would affect me if I was an end user (gamer), for an "annoying advert ending the game":

-I'd see a game made by gamemaker (though I don't know about gamemaker, let alone that there's a lite & standard version - I learn it by seeing the game). I'd play the game.
I'd play the game untill I think it's time to do something else, so I quit the game.. Then BAM I get a screen all over (probably always on top?). This would annoy me a lot, not only that I might not buy gamemaker. But it would also annoy me so much that I might not play future games on the site I downloaded the game from (yoyogames). Especially if this happens 2,3 times. I don't know the differences between lite & standard, and I probably don't even want to.

So by putting adverts in the GAME of gamemaker lite, you are effectivelly hurting game maker pro users.

Edited by paul23, 01 April 2011 - 12:03 AM.

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#105 GearGOD

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 12:10 AM

That's not ego that he's using...that's demand for respect. Mike is going out of his way to create a topic and discuss a feature in the software that the community is interested in....to piss him off while he's being nice is hardly ego. I like you GG, but tread lightly, or you may be next with the banstick.

'Demand for respect' is an infantile ego complex. Respect is earned and commanded. Never demanded. The only thing I see him going out of his way to do is to stoop down to the level of kids talking to him. If he acts like a kid, he'll be treated like one.
If he wants to ban me for this it won't really impact me. My only participation on these boards has been helping others and partaking in discussions. The only thing he'll do is further prove his amazing lack of ability to manage any sort of public relations, and take away the input of one of the few remaining senior members whose activity predates him knowing that game maker even existed.
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#106 ThatGamesGuy

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 12:14 AM

I say simply do away with "newer" Lite versions. 8.0 Lite stays the way it is, available, and ALL new features and development goes entirely into Pro/Standard edtions.

baconman has got the right idea.

Good points by sabriath and paul23.
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#107 Manuel777

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 01:51 AM

Well I just thought a bit about how everything would affect me if I was an end user (gamer), for an "annoying advert ending the game":

-I'd see a game made by gamemaker (though I don't know about gamemaker, let alone that there's a lite & standard version - I learn it by seeing the game). I'd play the game.
I'd play the game untill I think it's time to do something else, so I quit the game.. Then BAM I get a screen all over (probably always on top?). This would annoy me a lot, not only that I might not buy gamemaker. But it would also annoy me so much that I might not play future games on the site I downloaded the game from (yoyogames). Especially if this happens 2,3 times. I don't know the differences between lite & standard, and I probably don't even want to.

So by putting adverts in the GAME of gamemaker lite, you are effectivelly hurting game maker pro users.

If thats the case (and i agree with it here) one way out is to put the limitations inside the IDE. As i said earlier, maybe restrict icon change, and keep the old restrictions (3d functions, dlls, blah blah)
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#108 Desert Dog

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 03:31 AM

I hate 30 day trials.
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#109 thatshelby

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 03:32 AM

Here's an idea.

Limit the number of exe's you can compile. It's a trial version and it makes lite users fairly happy (Happier than "NO EXE FOR YOU").
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#110 makerofthegames

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 03:48 AM


I wonder how many times I'll have to repeat myself, because people just keep falling over this fallacy. No EXE does not have to mean there is no possibility to share.

Except if you have homework (or something), and need to take an EXE in for a project. Not all schools give internet access.

You can just take an installer with your game, the same way you would take an EXE. :P
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#111 Binsk

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 04:19 AM

I remember starting out GM a while ago, and what caught my eye especially was the fact that we could distribute and even sell our games without having to purchase the product. It was less of a "demo" and more of a full product with an option to upgrade the features. Now, of course, with the founding of Yoyo etc. there are better routs to go for supporting a full company rather than a side project of one man. However, it still remains that the thing that caught my eye was the ability to actually create and distribute something without having to pay. This eventually made my support for the program grow a lot, and I wanted those special features so I purchased a key with little hesitation, knowing I was also supporting a 'company' (or rather a person) that I respected.

That uniqueness, I believe, should be kept. People should be able to make and distribute without limitations on the actual .exe. Watermarks, logos, even a popup at the end of the game saying "Made with Game Maker! Check it out HERE!" I think is perfectly fine, and a great idea, as well as limiting functions in GM itself. Even containing things like that, it still feels like a "full" program with the option to upgrade to advanced features, rather than that painful feeling of trying to design something worth a bean and learn the system in a limited amount of time, or not being able to show your work to anyone after all that effort which, for me, was what helped spur me on to actually purchasing it (That is to say, the actual feedback and friends when I could show them a finished product).

Perhaps this is relevant, perhaps, not. Yet I know that if Game Maker started as one of the many other game creation programs that put a time limit on how long you could work on things, unable to sell without a license, prohibited from important features (such as saving/loading) without purchasing, (and the list goes on) it would have never sparked the interest it did and I most likely would not have ended up purchasing it. It wouldn't have stood out, and would have been lost among the other pieces of software.


P.S. In response to the having something nagging at you to upgrade: Having these cool 'special features' (Basically, extra functions) is great enough incentive, especially when they are hyped. At first, perhaps the user may disregard it at first, but little (not to nagging) reminders throughout use of the program will make them itch, and when they finally think they have the program good enough that in itself works as a good excuse to purchase the program, if for nothing else. Having "Made with Game Maker" or whatnot watermarks/logos/etc. in the .exe merely help push them over the edge. That is my personal experience with things like this, anyway, and I am not afraid to admit it. :P

Just my two cents.

Edited by Scyler_27, 01 April 2011 - 04:32 AM.

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#112 fenyxofshadows

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 04:45 AM

Make GM 7.0 pro free...


I second this idea (however, it might be easier for 8.0, your choice). It would have similar (if lesser) restrictions than any of your current ideas. Most people that would want pro would most certainly pirate it. This would plague you no matter what you do, to some extent. However, by doing this, you are allowing for an official version that has many great abilities, thus hindering the pirates, and making pirating the Standard program almost completely useless because of the auto-update system. It's an old version anyway, so it isn't being upgraded or purchased anyway. Also, since you can provide speed improvements and new abilities with Standard, there would certainly be a reason to upgrade.

I would, however, keep the watermark on the free 7.0 pro (not any splash-screens, ads, or the stupid annoying banner, tho). You never want to hassle the gamers, but you want to annoy (not too much, mind you) the developers, and I think that 1) killing EXE creation would cross the line and 2) the developers need to learn, then, once they see the massive improvements that have happened, they would want to upgrade and 3) the gamers still need to know where the program came from.

Also, in the free 7 pro, you can keep the YOYOGAMES banner in the bottom of the corner :D.

Just my opinion. You have to remember your audience, and having a program with the ability to upgrade seems to be the best, rather than a limited useless trial. Gamers won't be convinced by ads.
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#113 oddbob0

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 05:31 AM

For the record, we insisted on 5 second splash screens for 4 major competitions we've ran over the years at a site I run. Amount of complaints from players? None. Amount of complaints from developers about having to put them there? Oh man, someone give me a pillow to suffocate them in their sleep with for some peace and quiet. Funnily enough, with the "you can remove them if you host them from your own site or wherever else, the competition version has to contain it though" and for all the moaning, out of nearly 2,000 games entered I've probably played 3 at a push since which removed them.

I understand, because I write and play games, that you want the experience to be fairly smooth for the player. You don't want things obstructing the player in any way (or at least, most people don't ;)) but honestly, it's not as cataclysmic as you'd think and the interruption/replay value is hardly touched.

Admittedly with insta-iGaming on the rise, you might only get a year or so more out of it before it becomes untenable but whilst everyone has to sit through 40 screens on startup for most major games, it's not that bad. And you have a get out clause, yeah? Don't want that on your game? You know what to do, trooper! Click that buy button.

Whether it helps convert people is something you'll find out in time though and there's only one way to find that out. Don't forget that if it proves to be a mess, doesn't increase conversion rate or whatever, it can be done away with in a future release. Giving YYG some wiggle room to experiment with stuff doesn't seem entirely unreasonable now there's incoming updates and good things on the way.

I do suspect that shifting it to "on startup" would be a better move though. When most people quit a game, they want it gone (possibly because it was utter guff, y'know?) and want to move on to something else and don't care what you're selling at that point.

Also, to all those pro users arguing that GM shouldn't have a lite version because of what you want or how you feel about kids getting something? It's not about you. It's about them. There's no harm done in letting them create stuff, worst case scenario they create some rubbish games and don't pay for GM. Best case scenario? We get the next Cactus, we get the next NAL, we get the next 2dCube or we get a whole load of people getting hooked and moving into the industry to make better games for all of us.

That's a chance worth taking, IMO.

Edited by oddbob0, 01 April 2011 - 05:39 AM.

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#114 mcoot

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 06:19 AM

To be honest, I don't see how a watermark or (tastefully presented) ending screen is really going to affect players. The mockup Mike Dailly posted is transparent, not distracting, and isn't going to make people turn away from GM.
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#115 sabriath

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 06:25 AM

You guys are right, the watermark and end-ads are annoying to the player rather than the game maker themselves. What we want to do is target them so that they are more willing to purchase the standard edition.

I got an idea...instead of a watermark of GM logo...how about watermark the source code of their game in slow scrolling fashion. With it being open-sourced, they would be utterly annoyed and want to protect what they worked so hard to accomplish, they'll HAVE to purchase the standard.
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#116 fenyxofshadows

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 06:28 AM

That would just piss people off. If I knew that everyone could see exactly what I did to do everything, and could easily steal it, I would switch to Construct.
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#117 blue_chu_jelly

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 06:54 AM


That's not ego that he's using...that's demand for respect. Mike is going out of his way to create a topic and discuss a feature in the software that the community is interested in....to piss him off while he's being nice is hardly ego. I like you GG, but tread lightly, or you may be next with the banstick.

'Demand for respect' is an infantile ego complex. Respect is earned and commanded. Never demanded. The only thing I see him going out of his way to do is to stoop down to the level of kids talking to him. If he acts like a kid, he'll be treated like one.
If he wants to ban me for this it won't really impact me. My only participation on these boards has been helping others and partaking in discussions. The only thing he'll do is further prove his amazing lack of ability to manage any sort of public relations, and take away the input of one of the few remaining senior members whose activity predates him knowing that game maker even existed.

I realise Mike's trying to keep civil discussion here, but this is exactly what I thought when I read his post saying "Do NOT address me like that. Ever. I was VERY clear on the rules for this post if you even bothered to read them. If you can't be bother to follow the rules. Don't post. period." I have little respect for someone who treats their consumers like this.
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#118 mcoot

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 07:26 AM

I have little respect for someone who treats their consumers like this.


If by 'consumer' you mean troll whose only purpose in the topic is to bash Yoyo Games, and who talks about how 'pathetic' they are, then yes.

But Mike clearly stated that the purpose of the topic was constructive criticism and ideas for how a system could be implemented. Shadowrend was clearly just trying to troll people and he got what he deserved.

You guys are right, the watermark and end-ads are annoying to the player rather than the game maker themselves. What we want to do is target them so that they are more willing to purchase the standard edition.


Only if you agree that a transparent, non-distracting watermark in the top left corner is going to annoy players enough to reconsider playing a game.
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#119 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 07:33 AM

blue_chu_jelly, GearGOD: I spend large amounts of my own time wading through posts on these forums, looking for things that could improve what we do and the product you all use and love. Posts from the constructive to the utterly hate filled about how we at YoYo games know nothing and if we could drop dead as quickly as possible, it would be in everyone's best interest. Thats fine. It's up to the admins to regulate that as the community sees fit - most other companies wouldn't allow it, but we leave it to the community to deal with. I always have to option of not reading that thread of I get sick of it.

In these discussions, I have to read them all. Every one. No matter how badly put, or how misguided some of the responses are - and top be fair, this forum has been a fountain of useful feedback. The community has been brilliant, far more than I could ever have hoped for. But I have to read them all. So the rules are very simple. Don't spout on here. You have ALL the rest of the forums to do that because I have the choice not to read. I don't have that here. I warned him twice. Once in the 1st post, and once the second time. He still called us all pathetic and worse. I really don't have the time or energy to have to deal with that here. We're still a small outfit and I work 14-16 hours a day trying to make a better product for you all. I don't really have an ego, I love to be proven wrong, to have someone tell me a better way to do things, that's what these discussions are all about. Actually, it's not even about being wrong, it's about admitting you don't know everything and that someone else has a better idea. So please do me the common courtesy of being helpful and constructive because if it descends into yet another ranting match we won't get anything out of these discussions and they'll stop. It's really that simple.

As to the rest... The GM7 Pro.. we did think of that, but to be honest, there simply isn't enough difference between GM7 and GM8. This may happen in the next release... but as we don't have the source to GM7, it might be hard. It might have to wait for a much bigger leap so we can then use GM8 pro. But that would be nice, I agree.

The "nag" screen shouldn't impact gamers. It's not always no top, and it doesn't "lock in" the mouse. So you can go run something else easily while its closing down. It's not like the old DOS ones that you had to sit and wait on. (not that many of you'll remember that!)

The reason we have to do a new lite version is that it directs to Softwrap, and we can't have that. which is pooh.

I don't like 30 day trials either... you cant learn to code in 30 days.

The watermark pic is what is currently "IN", it's not a mockup. You can also specify which corner you want it in....
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#120 fenyxofshadows

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 07:42 AM

Speaking of the nag screen... It would still be awesome to have it be at the beginning, like the splash screens in the iOS games. That way, you get the message across, it looks more professional (sites and companies do this all the time), and you don't have to wait... As an example of what might happen if you use a nag screen at the end, download the Trial version for Halo: Combat Evolved. Next, try exiting it. Annoying, ain't it? Now, compare that to the beginning. That BUNGIE logo looks much better then that nag screen at the end, and, lo and behold, it's even in the paid version.

Just saying what I think is a good, non-obtrusive idea.
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#121 Smarty

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 08:39 AM

@Mike: I actually meant occassional nag screens in the IDE, just to remind the Game Maker user that the developers have kids to feed. They're a little obtrusive, but there would be no development impediments other than those already covered.

The watermark is fine by me. It's actually a bit more classy than the cornered message at startup that is there now. I do agree with what was previously mentioned, that it should state the game was made with Game Maker Lite - at least this hints that you can actually get rid of the watermark.

Edited by Smarty, 01 April 2011 - 08:42 AM.

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#122 Dangerous_Dave

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 08:58 AM

Ignoring technical problems, I've always wanted a pro only forum, enabled by entering your registration key. It seperates the pirates from the legits, and encourages people using the pirated version, who have no reason to pay, to actually pay for the software they have used for free for so long.
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#123 oddbob0

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:16 AM

That's how the old Blitz forums used to work and it was fine. Tangential, I know, but Paradox also run their forums in a similar manner (which is why you still get a key even when you buy through Steam, for example).
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#124 GearGOD

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:51 AM

Paid Blitz forums was a brilliant idea. It also made piracy a lot less appealing as key was checked serverside so no key meant no access to a vig chunk of the knowledge base.

Edited by GearGOD, 01 April 2011 - 09:52 AM.

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#125 YellowAfterlife

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:51 AM

To previous Mike's reply to my post, I meant that two (one by now) features do not seem to be a worthy refund for new restrictions.
About draw_self()... what makes it so problematic to implement in lite edition? Shouldn't that simply call standart object drawing 'routine'?
Perhaps the main point of that function in lite edition is that there is no function to draw sprite with scaling and alpha, but without rotation and blending.
If draw_self() cannot be implemented, maybe an additional function «draw_sprite_light(sprite, subimage, x, y, xscale, yscale, alpha)» could be added, or draw_sprite_ext could be made to ignore angle and blend if GameMaker is not registered*?
* That would also somewhat improve examples compatibility.

Edit: paid forums sure sound like a nice idea, but would probably just make «pirate» users to search for other gm forums, or create these. I cannot guess if that is good or not.

Edited by YellowAfterlife, 01 April 2011 - 09:54 AM.

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#126 Smarty

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:06 AM

Ignoring technical problems, I've always wanted a pro only forum, enabled by entering your registration key. It seperates the pirates from the legits, and encourages people using the pirated version, who have no reason to pay, to actually pay for the software they have used for free for so long.

The moderator team has considered this in a distant past and even suggested to Mark. But it isn't that easy.

Once you provide special access to (parts of) the forum for paying users, they will feel entitled to be using those forums as they'll see this as a service they have paid for. That's all fine and dandy unless they do something that isn't permitted by the moderating team, and get a (temporary) preview of ban applied to their account.

On a free-for-all forum, the disciplinary action is left at the discretion of the moderator and that's usually the end of it. But on a (perceived) paid forum, there is more at stake: the moderator appears to be directly capable of discontinuing a paid service. This is problematic, because the GMC is run by volunteers with no association to YoYo Games. There would be no end to the flood of complaints YYG will receive on 'unfair' moderator actions. Either YYG would have to give a stamp of approval on moderator actions, or they'd have to moderate the forums themselves, or in any other way be more involved in forum moderation.

I don't think everyone appreciates how much YYG have left moderation of this place in the hands of the community. I can speak from experience when I say they have never, ever interfered with how this forum was moderated, what rules should apply (other than the explicit wish that piracy of the software is not permitted), or who was to be appointed for moderation. And I don't think they do that now, given that moderators like Ragnarak would bail out if they would.

I'm sure we'd all like to keep it that way.

Edited by Smarty, 01 April 2011 - 10:08 AM.

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#127 GearGOD

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:10 AM

On a free-for-all forum, the disciplinary action is left at the discretion of the moderator and that's usually the end of it. But on a (perceived) paid forum, there is more at stake: the moderator appears to be directly capable of discontinuing a paid service. This is problematic


Its not problematic once you understand and make clear to the users that what they paid for is the application. The fact that the registration key unlocks access to a subforum is no different from any other kind of private subforum, complete with rules and bans.
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#128 sabriath

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:25 AM

Its not problematic once you understand and make clear to the users that what they paid for is the application. The fact that the registration key unlocks access to a subforum is no different from any other kind of private subforum, complete with rules and bans.

That's why he stated "apparent" in his debate. We are talking about children, children (and a lot of adults) do not read the rules, even if it were in size=72 font bold and bright saying "do not contact YYG with problems", they would still do it.

That's getting offtopic, sooo...

As to the rest... The GM7 Pro.. we did think of that, but to be honest, there simply isn't enough difference between GM7 and GM8. This may happen in the next release... but as we don't have the source to GM7, it might be hard. It might have to wait for a much bigger leap so we can then use GM8 pro. But that would be nice, I agree.

+1 ... I'm glad you guys had that in mind, and hopefully one day you'll have the ability to make it so.

As for the nag screen, I would honestly rather see it at the beginning than at the end. 5-10 seconds while loading the game isn't so bad, but putting it at the end makes it feel like the infamous Mr. Hardy is back, and that puts a bad taste in my mouth at least.


by the way: I really don't want to be a bother, but could I pick your brain for a bit on compilation theory in PM, I'm having a bit of trouble with the typeless 'var' datatyping while using structure storage ability. No code, just a question really :)
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#129 Dangerous_Dave

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:40 AM

The moderator team has considered this in a distant past and even suggested to Mark. But it isn't that easy.

Yeah I'm aware there are problems with it, but there must be something similar you can do (and by you, I don't mean you specifically, just to be clear :P).

Currently, pirates get everything paying users get, besides an install limit. By setting up something that you *can't* pirate, it makes the pay-for version more attractive. Not everyone has morals, in fact, I think YoYo have found out just how few people do. I think there should be some service offered to people who have paid, and can prove it, but as you've said a private forum has too many problems. Maybe the new publishing service, that YoYo have talked about, should only be offered to those people who have purchased GM.

Another option is that instead of offering a private forum, simply offer a badge appearing next to / under your username in posts that shows you have purchased GM legitimately. You would certainly only allow one key to be tied to one GM account. This still requires behind the scenes technology that may not be practical (linking these forums to a database of keys) but it removes a lot of the more obvious problems.
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#130 Rusty

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:41 AM

Ignoring technical problems, I've always wanted a pro only forum, enabled by entering your registration key. It seperates the pirates from the legits, and encourages people using the pirated version, who have no reason to pay, to actually pay for the software they have used for free for so long.

But it's the Lite users who will suffer from this because they don't have access to the knowledge they need to be able to actually learn how to use Game Maker. Although Game Maker is not freeware it is a learning program and the GMC forums is meant to be a site where more experienced members can help the less experienced members, people can find partners for the parts of games they don't know how to do and (of course) the creation of games.

Another big issue here is that many spriters, musicians and the like don't actually have Game Maker, if you cut them out the website, you cut the usefulness of the website and effectively, the attraction to it leading to a decline in the amount of people using it.

Edit:
Wait... read through the posts again. I'm getting the feeling you're drifting more towards a "VIP" section for paid members. While I enjoy the idea of paying members getting an advantage over cheapskates I do have to question what use this new sub-forum would actually be and why anyone would want it?

Edited by Rusty, 01 April 2011 - 10:44 AM.

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#131 Dangerous_Dave

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:44 AM

But it's the Lite users who will suffer from this because they don't have access to the knowledge they need to be able to actually learn how to use Game Maker.

The suggestion was to add one pro-people-only forum, not make the whole GMC pro only ;).
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#132 Rusty

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:50 AM


But it's the Lite users who will suffer from this because they don't have access to the knowledge they need to be able to actually learn how to use Game Maker.

The suggestion was to add one pro-people-only forum, not make the whole GMC pro only ;).

:lol: I know, I just caught on too late. Anyway, that still leaves spriters and musicians who can't get into the sub-forum and a rather pointless forum...

So it basically becomes a random GML Programmer Chatroom.
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#133 Dangerous_Dave

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:52 AM

So it basically becomes a random GML Programmer Chatroom.


What it would have been is irrelevant now that it's been shown it wouldn't work. Now you can comment on my newest suggestion :)
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#134 Yal

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:59 AM

So it basically becomes a random GML Programmer Chatroom.

The main idea of that suggestion would be to add a new Sub-Forum for registered users, and that would mean that we'd get, say, four more boards to post in. That wouldn't really exclude anyone from the boards that already exists (I mean, I really like to hang around at GI&D to volcano design ideas over people).

Of course, I fail to see what addition to the forum something like that would be - right now it's pretty well divided in all the main topics one would like to discuss: Game Maker, Resources, Design&Distribution. A "paying people only" board would sort of be "Important people come here to discuss important stuff. We're so proud of ourselves."

Or is there some stuff Standard users only are able to discuss?
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#135 Rusty

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:03 AM

Another option is that instead of offering a private forum, simply offer a badge appearing next to / under your username in posts that shows you have purchased GM legitimately. You would certainly only allow one key to be tied to one GM account. This still requires behind the scenes technology that may not be practical (linking these forums to a database of keys) but it removes a lot of the more obvious problems.

This isn't practical and it creates more problems than it solves. Pirates aren't as dumb as they used to be, I've seen YouTube video tutorials on how to use a fake registration key to activate various programs. There are far too many ways for people to turn to piracy and nowhere near enough ways to cull them. Besides that, how are you going to tell the difference between a pirate and a Lite user?

As much as I agree with you that paying users should be getting a better service than pirates, there just isn't a practical way to stop piracy yet.
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#136 Dangerous_Dave

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:09 AM

This isn't practical and it creates more problems than it solves. Pirates aren't as dumb as they used to be, I've seen YouTube video tutorials on how to use a fake registration key to activate various programs. There are far too many ways for people to turn to piracy and nowhere near enough ways to cull them. Besides that, how are you going to tell the difference between a pirate and a Lite user?

As much as I agree with you that paying users should be getting a better service than pirates, there just isn't a practical way to stop piracy yet.

Don't check the registration key against a pattern, check it against real keys that have been given out, stored in a database. Once a key has been claimed, you can't reclaim it. The people who never claim their key at the GMC will have the small risk of having theirs stolen by someone else, but the chances of correctly guessing these keys are pretty low.

And we wont bother telling the difference between the lites and pirates. Just paying people get the badges. People who talk about using pro features but don't have the badge will be easily identifiable as pirates (although there will be excuses galore).
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#137 chance

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:16 AM

I fail to see what addition to the forum something like that would be - right now it's pretty well divided in all the main topics one would like to discuss: Game Maker, Resources, Design&Distribution.

I think this is the issue. Even if it were easy to make a registered-users forum, what would we discuss?
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#138 GearGOD

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:26 AM

This isn't practical and it creates more problems than it solves. Pirates aren't as dumb as they used to be, I've seen YouTube video tutorials on how to use a fake registration key to activate various programs.

If you haven't noticed, keygens don't work for online games. Nor will they work for a forum. Here's why:
The master key function can output N keys.
A secondary function selects N/100,000
The keys sold are passed through both functions.
The installer/game verifies the input against the master function only. Its extracted by the attacker and used to generate potentially all N valid keys.
Meanwhile the server/forum runs the input through the secondary function also.
You thus have a 1:100,000 chance of getting a working online key.

Edit:

I fail to see what addition to the forum something like that would be - right now it's pretty well divided in all the main topics one would like to discuss: Game Maker, Resources, Design&Distribution.

I think this is actually pretty easy. Move advanced, 3d, extension, and experts boards into the registered only subforum. This makes pretty solid sense as the lite users are by majority novices and when they start asking questions that they know belong in advanced, it'll be a good reminder to register.

Edited by GearGOD, 01 April 2011 - 11:35 AM.

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#139 fawful

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:27 AM

doesn't lite version already come with a watermark on startup? Or has that been removed in some of the more recent versions?
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#140 Maarten Baert

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:33 AM

The add-on-exit sounds like a good idea. But 10 seconds is way too long. In my opinion the best way to do it would be a normal window with a close button and no timeout.

In my opinion, the best changes are those that won't actually make Game Maker less powerful. If you make Game Maker less powerful by adding some annoying limitation, part of the Lite users will buy Pro/Standard, but another part will stop using Game Maker in favor of some other game development platform, or simply stop making games altogether. That's definitely not what you want. Don't forget there are free alternatives (e.g. Construct).

EDIT: Also, you don't want GM8.1 Lite to be less powerful than GM8.0 Lite. Especially if you're going to stop supporting GM8.0.

Edited by Maarten Baert, 01 April 2011 - 11:38 AM.

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#141 sabriath

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:36 AM

You thus have a 1:100,000 chance of getting a working online key.

In all actuality, it isn't uncommon to have a 32 byte lock manifest with a 16 byte key. The locks are unique, while the keys are specific for each lock, both are required in an authentication handshake in order to be verified through the account that it is tagged to. If the selling power is say 10 million customers, than 32 bytes amounts to 1:1.15e+70 chance of getting a matching lock in the manifest...and you'd still have a 1:3.4e+38 of actually matching the key to the lock for the account.

The chance is nearly 0%.



This is getting way off topic, please stop talking about "elite forums" so that Mike doesn't have to waste his time reading through all that crap. Sorry Mike.
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#142 mcoot

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:42 AM

The watermark pic is what is currently "IN", it's not a mockup. You can also specify which corner you want it in....


Oh, good. :P

To be honest, I think a VIP-style paid user only forum is a bit pointless. How much does it offer over the current Community forum or the Working With Game Maker fora? Of course, it seems as though it would be difficult to implement anyway...

The most important thing you can draw from these experiences is that Yoyo are actually listening to the community. We've got a specific discussion forum especially to give feedback to the developers about how GM's development is progressing. Not to mention that development is certainly a lot faster now that they've got a team (I presume there are more people doing the development work than just Russell and Mike) of dedicated developers. The difference between GM8 and GM8.1 is at least as big as the difference between GM7 and GM8.

In other words: good job. There's always going to be trolls, and it's impossible to satisfy everyone in the community, but right now I dare say we've got it much better than we ever have had in the past.
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#143 Mike.Dailly

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 01:05 PM

okay...this has wandered way off topic, so I'm gonna close it down. Once again, many thanks for your input, I hope you all enjoy 8.1 when it arrives.
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