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.EXE removal....


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#1

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:44 AM

Okay, big discussions going on with this, and we really are listening. So... here's your chance to give a fair and reasonable alternative to removing this, or limiting it in some way.

Or current thought ( and we're more than happy to change if you provide a better alternative ) is that we'll "mark" the .EXE in some way. Our current thought is that we'll do a TV style logo that's always in the corner, or perhaps a ticker that scrolls along. Something that clearly marks it, but doesn't disable it outright - perhaps even a very faint watermark over the whole screen like Google maps does?

What we're aiming for is to encourage users who will never buy it, to do so. We release that many folk use it for years before buying it and we would like to keep them happy as well. But at the end of the day, it isn't a "free" product, it has to make money for us to be able to continue development and that means trying to get those who never upgrade, to do so. Running from inside the IDE will be unaffected, the .exe it creates will time out as normal, but this allows your to see your game without the "banner" (or whatever)

So, knowing that "something" has to be annoying inside the lite .EXE, what would encourage you to upgrade, but not piss you off and drive you away?

We've also had suggestions of not allowing the icon and loading bar to change, no full screen and changing the title bar. These may well get used as well.

Please be civil. I know this is a contentious issue, and that most of you have pretty strong feelings on the matter. I have read all the previous comments (that I could find), and we do agree that limiting .EXE creation isn't a great solution. We're looking for solutions that will keep most people reasonably happy, but we also understand some will never like it, no matter what. So help us get a better one.

But note. I WILL NOT take any YoYo bashing here. Be nice. Be constructive.

#2 NpN Games

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:51 AM

You can also limit some resources in LITE version like you can only add 3 rooms, 20 objects, or like that only...Posted Image
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#3 Davve

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:54 AM

25 guests are reading this topic lol...

A Game Maker logo in the top-left corner of one's screen when playing a lite game would be a good idea.
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#4

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:56 AM

NpN Games: I'm not keen on that. I don't think stuff like that is enough to get folk hooked, and in fact usually pisses them off more often than not. I'm also aware that Nal used it for a couple of years and did some great games before buying it. This makes me think you want to make it as "complete" as possible, so that they'll upgrade when they're happy, but can't "live" with it forever - if you know what I mean.

#5 gnysek

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:56 AM

So as I said before 5 or 10 minutes playable exes are good. First game of newbie user is sth like "catch the clown", so 5 minutes is even too much for it. But after he learn some GML, game will be longer, with better graphic, maybe some music - and here comes need for Standard version.

But... watermark or room with logo at beginning is also good idea. There can be even a text "This game was created in Game Maker / visit yoyogames.com for more info" under it - similar is in The Games Factory at end if I remember correctly. This will be better that current small image in corner when game is loading.
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#6 Dangerous_Dave

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:05 AM

At risk of maybe some negative comments... but what about adding adverts into the Game Maker interface? So the developer sees ads while developing. Maybe something in the bottom left corner, or a panel across the bottom or right.

It's a way of making money from the people who will never upgrade.

Edit: I don't like the idea of time limited exes, and a yoyogames watermark/banner will no longer work.

I used GM for years before it started charging. I never donated when it was asked of me, and I didn't upgrade for a while after it went "pro". All in all, it was years of use, with some pretty long games, before I finally paid for it. I doubt that I would have paid for it at all without that. It's partly because of my age back then, but many GM users these days are around that age or younger.

As for the watermark, they can just upload their game to YoYoGames.com, then download a watermark free version.

Edited by Dangerous_Dave, 31 March 2011 - 09:10 AM.

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#7 Jazza4Lyf

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:11 AM

After the game ends, you could display one final room with an advertisement saying the game was made with Game Maker Lite with a link to the YoYo site and another that closes the game. This way it doesn't disrupt gameplay but you still get your message across.

Or, when the game transitions to another room after a certain time, transition to an advertisement room instead with the same stuff as above but instead of closing the window goes to the proper room. This does inturrupt gameplay but as its a room transition, it's less likely to screw them up mid-game.
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#8 LegacyCrono

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:15 AM

NpN Games, that'd be pretty much useless. I believe that it's a well-known fact that you could bypass such limitation.

Hmm... The watermark sounds good, but I can't see how it'd work, considering that the game window could be as small as 32x32, so it could be a problem.
I like the time limitation idea. As gnysek said, it could be used to drive people into buying the Standard version. But I think that it could be easily bypassed without much efforts.
Not allowing to change icon, splash, loading bar and window caption is a great idea, I think that people could live with that.

I think that a message when starting/closing the game would be okay. Something simple that would require to press an "OK button" to continue. Clicking a button to start the game would be rather annoying, but bearable, so I think it's a fine solution.
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#9 Yal

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:19 AM

. There can be even a text "This game was created in Game Maker / visit yoyogames.com for more info" under it - similar is in The Games Factory at end if I remember correctly.


This is onto something - how about a 10 second splash screen or something that shows up when you end a Lite game by pressing escape, saying that "This game was created in Game Maker Lite, visit yoyogames.com for more info. (This screen can be switched off in the Standard and Professional edition of Game Maker)"


As for the TV-style logo, that's good too. To make people a bit more supportive, let there be an option in Preferences: in what corner would you like the logo to show up? This would likely make more people cope with it, since after all they'd get some means of customizing it to suit their game better (for instance, they could put the HUD where they want without worrying about the logo covering it).

Having loading/icon noncustomizable could also work pretty fine. In the GM6 days there was the "Made With Game Maker" window that popped up while the loading bar was loading. Having the actual loading bar image state that this was made with Game Maker Lite could also do the trick.

Or perhaps have EXE info fields (Under the name of an EXE, Description and Company shows up in grayscale when in Icon view) always default to "Game Maker Lite application", instead of being able to be any text the user desires?
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#10 Derme

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:26 AM

At risk of maybe some negative comments... but what about adding adverts into the Game Maker interface? So the developer sees ads while developing. Maybe something in the bottom left corner, or a panel across the bottom or right.

It's a way of making money from the people who will never upgrade.

That's not a bad idea, you don't want the people playing games on the YYG website to have to suffer for the developer not buying Game Maker. This would be perfect, you can either use GM with adverts, limited abilities and the banner when the game is loading. Or you can buy GM and work on a "cleaner" surface. This wouldn't drive developers insane, but at the same time it would "encourage" them to but GM. The only problem with this would be an internet connection, you'd need to be online to see ads.

@Mike Removing the ability to build .EXE files from the lite version, would see us miss out on some very good games on the YYG website.

@gnysek Watermarks are also a good idea, when you watch TV with a watermark down the bottom (small), you know it's there, but it doesn't bother you.

@LegacyCrono Think about it, all those GM games you download from YYG, with the same boring sphere... :whistle:

Alright simply, I don't think that any "Light" implementations should effect the end-user, and removing .exe completely would see a loss of many good newbie devs. So I think if you implement somthing that would effect the dev more than the player would be a better solution.

Edited by Derme, 31 March 2011 - 09:28 AM.

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#11 Dangerous_Dave

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:34 AM

The only problem with this would be an internet connection, you'd need to be online to see ads.

That's true. You could always have some stock ads, included in the program. If you can't get an internet connection, show those. Links to YoYo, maybe a sponsor.
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#12 Slowbro

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:36 AM

I think some kind of logo or watermark would be the way to go here. I think a timer would simply piss people off to the extent that they wouldn't want to try the program for a long enough period that they might consider purchasing it.
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#13

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:51 AM

I don't think Ads would work for a lot of reasons. 1st, the community as a whole, doesn't click on them, this makes them just "annoying". Second, aside from our own, you only really have Google ads. and we've all seen what they're like. I'm not a fan. If we could get "mobile" sized ads, I'd think about it... but we can't. So I think ads are a no go.

I like the old Ad on exit thing. They're pretty effective, serve the correct purpose, and don't piss the people playing the game off too much. I also think a little "TV" logo combined with some limits (no room size under 256x256?), can't change icon, no full screen, we name the window etc. all sound pretty sensible.

So... currently ( until someone gives an amazing solution ), I'm looking do do this...

We use the GameMaker icon.
You can't go SMALLER that a 256x256 room/window size.
We put a "Make with GameMaker" thing in a corner of the screen (let you pick)
The game "title" is forced to something like "Made with GameMaker Lite - http://blah"
GameMaker advert on exit that stays up for 5-10 seconds. (any preference?)
However... We'll also add ZOOM and draw_self() into the Lite version.


Hows that?

#14 MasterOfKings

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:52 AM

I know this sounds somewhat stupid (or impossible); but most of the Lite games that are looked down upon are Tutorial rip-offs.. I think it would be good to have a separate file format for tutorials. So, GM can open and read them, but can't run them or export them as ordinary .exes. Of course, it's defeated by just copying and pasting code; but would a newbie really be that dedicated?

If you throw up a watermark; you'll just end up with a heap of games on YYG (and elsewhere) with that watermark. It doesn't incline them to buy GM by that much.

Would it be possible to give the Lite version a slower runner? So, games performed are generally worse anyway. If someone wants to make a good game, they'll almost require purchasing.

We put a "Make with GameMaker" thing in a corner of the screen (let you pick)

I think "Made with Game Maker" would be better. :P

-MoK

Edited by MasterOfKings, 31 March 2011 - 09:54 AM.

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#15 YellowAfterlife

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:23 AM

In my opinion, a proper watermark would do it. 3d GameStudio is using "watermark + splashscreen with engine logo" combination for a while already, and it works fine for them.
If "translated" to Game Maker, that would mean that user could specify watermark location in global game settings, and loading image would always stay as Game Maker logo with site adress.

Window size limitation sounds fair (though, I can see no reason for not letting user to create smaller rooms - view scaling may be used).
Displaying something in the end of the game would be bad, because that would slow down process of developement & learning the program, thus user will have higher chances to ragequit.
If game "Title" means window title, that is neutral - if there is a watermark in-game already, why would you want another adverstiment in game window? That feels strange.

To say, ZOOM + draw_self() do not seem to be worthy rewards for all future user's problems. Probably many will prefer using GM8.0Lite over new version.

P.S. NAL is not Nal, as he stated not once already.

Edit: What's up with a featured "forum" program on yoyogames homepage, by the way?

Edited by YellowAfterlife, 31 March 2011 - 10:27 AM.

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#16 sabriath

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:31 AM

Too many posts, so I'll just say my opinion, if it matches someone else, sorry.


- cannot change the control icon, title text, or window size/scale
- the loading screen cannot be changed, only "Made in Game Maker" along with a "click here to make your own games!" button...a minimum 5 seconds required on the loading screen (it is reasonable, it's functional and kills 2 birds with 1 stone)
- watermark in top left corner of main window
- showing the info/F1/whatever screen will have "Made in Game Maker" along with a link to YYG website at the very top, followed by whatever the programmer puts


Having an on-exit Ad sucks, especially during debug testing. But since I think everyone should purchase the product, I agree with the no-exe approach...if people want free software, they can learn the hard languages. Plus, there's always GM 7 lite that you guys can keep active for those who want to "get the feel" for what GM is all about.
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#17

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:40 AM

To say, ZOOM + draw_self() do not seem to be worthy rewards for all future user's problems. Probably many will prefer using GM8.0Lite over new version.

I don't follow you? Do you mean it's too much, or not enough?

P.S. NAL is not Nal, as he stated not once already.

Yeah... but I can just tell him he smells of cheese and to shut up! ;)



Sorry if I wasn't clear.

While developing, if you RUN/DEBUG (F5 or F6) the game from inside the IDE, it WILL NOT have these limitations. You'll see your game as normal. This means you will get quick turn around on coding because I agree that a nag screen on exit for dev is crap. The .EXE that's created while doing this, will "timeout" as it currently does.

But when you MAKE AN EXE, the time limit is removed, and the nag screen and TV watermark is added.

I'm in total agreement that "dev" should be as smooth as possible.

#18 oddbob0

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:58 AM

Mike, first up thanks for listening. It's seriously appreciated.

I think ads, also, would be more work for no return of note. At least not in any of the PC-centric formats we've got right now. I suspect that there's a point where they could be made to work but I also imagine you don't want to throw that time up the wall on a longshot.

The plan-at-the-moment though sounds super and easily adjustable if you need to increment/amend/work around for future revisions. Which I suspect may be a win all round.
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#19 sabriath

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:04 AM

I still feel that there should be only 1 GM 8.1 version....standard...no lite. If people want to "try it out", then they can use GM 8.0 or 7.0 lite, keep those on the shelf. I don't see how making 2 versions of a new product is going to help YYG as a company...you want people to "experience" how making games is easy, you already have software that does that.

I also feel that you should get rid of 8.0/7.0 pro versions, and only have 1 type of upgrade, to standard. It's YYG product, it's a good product, act like it...sell it proper. The lite users will keep trying to take and take and take all they can for free. They'll follow new versions as they come out, YYG should stop feeding them, 8.0 should be the end of the line! No more should you put up with that crap, tell them "that's it, stay in 8.0 all you want but we draw the line here, now." You (Mike, Rus, and the rest) have worked far too hard to see these leaches give you no pennies, no food on the table!

Stand up! Be proud! Be a company!! Charge for standard and give no quarter for the pinchers!!!



edit: The other reason I feel this way is, if you get rid of or enforce rules upon the exe itself on a "lite" version while maintaining a "standard" one as well, you'll just open up a side business with people who are willing to build full version executables for those who do not own full versions. This is a company loss waiting to happen...please don't just overlook this problem. If you have only 1 version of the software, then you eliminate this problem, the only thing they "might" be able to do is use earlier versions and have to convert up (which will eventually become incompatible, they'll have no choice but to purchase).

Edited by sabriath, 31 March 2011 - 11:10 AM.

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#20 paul23

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:08 AM

IF you're going to make free version not give executables (which I am neutral against) then also dont compile the free-version gmks on the site (so don't share it). Because if you do you're (in my eyes) taking advantage of the monopoly you have with gamemaker's interpreter!

btw for all options: add some kind of choice. A choice often makes people happy (even if it's silly, like being able to choose whether you show the add BEFORE or AFTER the game played)

Edited by paul23, 31 March 2011 - 11:17 AM.

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#21

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:15 AM

Since we're moving away from Softwrap, we can't keep GM 8.0 lite as if someone does wantto buy, it will try and buy from softwrap, and this would be disastrous. There will be many old 8.0 Lites out there as many websites do host it, but we can't help that.

So the idea is a whole new 8.1, and we'll remove all the older versions so as not to confuse things.

#22 Yal

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:19 AM

So the idea is a whole new 8.1, and we'll remove all the older versions so as not to confuse things.

Would it be possible to keep an (already upgraded) copy of 8.0 Pro on a computer one installs 8.1 on? It was mentioned somewhere that one shalt keep backup copies of files edited with 8.1 the first few weeks or so for safety reasons.

then also dont compile the free-version gmks on the site (so don't share it).

Why do you think YYG would do that? They have more important things to do than to steal editable games.

Edited by Yal, 31 March 2011 - 11:21 AM.

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#23 ragarnak

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:21 AM

What we're aiming for is to encourage users who will never buy it, to do so.

Well, a question: GM v8.0 already has a start-screen in which the user/potential customer must select something (the "continue using the lite version"). It also has the showing of the GM logo whenever he starts the executable. The potential customer is also shown that there are quite a few D&D commands he's not yet allowed to use, with similar messages for the equivalent GML commands. How much "encouragement" does someone need before something becomes obnoxious ?

Running from inside the IDE will be unaffected, the .exe it creates will time out as normal

Pardon me, but this is the first time I've ever heard about that (you didn't even mention anything like that in your "suggestions thread" of a couple of weeks ago) ...

And I'm hearing different times for it. You really want to make that just a few minutes ? What about a full day, so that entousiasts can, for example, take their work to school or friends but cannot actually distribute it ?

As for the "tv-like logo", you already have the GM logo on startup of the executable. Keep that one in place for a few seconds (5 ... 10 will be more than enough) and the people who run the "lite executable" will get the message. If not than those where never potential customers to begin with.

Now I think of it: the before-mentioned selection-screen could be "locked" for a few seconds too. Nothing is more displeasing as having to wait for something (especially on a computer).


Remark: Enticing your (potential) customers to do what you want by, effectivily, being obnoxious is a very tricky way to go. Push it and you lose them forever (posssibly even converting them to "enemies"). If your not doing it enough your company will not be able to grow as fast as some of you guys envision. None-the-less I would suggest to thread lightly.
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#24 makerofthegames

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:22 AM

So the idea is a whole new 8.1, and we'll remove all the older versions so as not to confuse things.

All? As in, all of them? As in, GM1-8.0?
Just want clarification. :P

Edited by makerofthegames, 31 March 2011 - 11:22 AM.

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#25 sabriath

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:22 AM

we can't keep GM 8.0 lite as if someone does wantto buy,

Reprogram the 8.0 help page and directives to point to 8.1 standard as the upgrade....and make it GM 8.01 on the website. That way it retains all the functionality and use of 8.0 but redirects the upgrading to standard. Heck, even add a submenu button in the 'help' that says "Why should I upgrade?" and have all the features of standard listed.

There shouldn't be any confusion, when you come out with 9.0, are you going to make a lite for that as well and dump 8.1? It would just seem silly to keep having to make 2 versions of software every time you upgrade and have to worry about hacks/subcontractors/etc. It's just a number anyway, slap "8.1" on 8.0 lite and be done with it..when the next version comes out, do the same.
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#26 chance

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:24 AM

You should stick with your original plan. Remove .exe option from the Lite version. Lite users can still play their games within the IDE, and they can share their .gmk files with other GM users.

The only reason people are whining, is because of the unreasonable sense of entitlement Mark created by giving GM away for so long.
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#27 Rani_sputnik

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:30 AM

[quote]
Stand up! Be proud! Be a company!! Charge for standard and give no quarter for the pinchers!!!
[/quote

While I agree with this, I'm pretty sure that is not exactly 'in alignment' with the Game Maker ethic. The pinchers are kinda the target audience. I think you're on to something though Sabriath... I think what Yoyo should do is Not bother to update the lite version. So say Game Maker 9.0 comes out. You have pro and lite, but then as you get 9.1,9.2,9.3 etc with the new updating system, time shouldn't be invested into updating the Lite version unless there is some major compatibility issue or bug that needs fixing. That's just my opinion though :P

Anyways on topic, I am so glad to hear that removal of EXE's is not ideal. I have pro myself but it doesn't take a genius to realise there would be a lot of hate mail about that. This is what I would like to see.

-> Loading bar and icon are Game Maker Related,
-> Game has to be windowed, viewport has no limit, but the game caption is Game Maker related.
-> Small opaque logo in game window, can be changed in preferences
-> End of game has a Game Maker Splash screen that doesn't have a set time, or it stays for a min of 2 secs. It's simply press close kinda thing...

Yeah so basically what I'm trying to say is that the current proposal sounds good by me.
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#28

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:30 AM

chance: I would agree, if it wasn't for the fact we know lots of folk use lite for a long time before upgrading. NAL is a prime example of this. They would like to upgrade, but are too young to simply do it themselves, so they have no choice. These are the folk I'm interesting in protecting, not those who simply don't want to upgrade.

#29 ThatGamesGuy

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:34 AM

How about this: not limiting beginners but adding and improving features that advanced users will appreciate? In other words, don't remove stuff at the bottom but add stuff at the top?
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#30 Rani_sputnik

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:40 AM

@ThatGamesGuy - Doesn't that happen already? Data structures, advanced sprite use, 3d.. not many lite sorry, new users would need any of that.

Edited by Rani_sputnik, 31 March 2011 - 11:41 AM.

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