47 replies to this topic

[NakedPaulToast]

At today's Back to Mac event, Apple announced the creation of it's Mac App Store.

http://www.apple.com/mac/app-store/

For GM4Mac users, this solves what an overwhelming obstacle that GM for Windows users have been asking for for years. An easy mechanism to distribute, publicise and monetize their creations.

Apple's itunes infrastructure, with the ability to handle micro-transactions, gift cards and convenient purchases has made online purchasing easy and accessible, especially to minors. This looks like it could be a reasonable and accessible mechanism for GM Mac developers.

[Hach-Que]

It depends on what kind of fees are involved, and whether the $99 developer's license is still applicable even for free applications (in which case it becomes an overwhelming obstacle to distribute on the Mac).

Edited by Hach-Que, 20 October 2010 - 10:37 PM.

[chance]

It depends on what kind of fees are involved, and whether the $99 developer's license is still applicable even for free applications (in which case it becomes an overwhelming obstacle to distribute on the Mac).

lol... overwhelming obstacle? To whom? 9 year old kids? I dropped more than that at my favorite restaurant last night, and the wine wasn't even that good.

Seriously, if you want to distribute free applications, join a Mac forum. There's thousands of them.

Besides, it may be free anyway (not sure):

http://developer.apple.com/programs/mac/distribution.html
* App Store Benefits for Developers
* You pick the price
* You get 70% of sales revenue
* Receive checks monthly
* No charge for free apps
* No credit card fees
* No hosting fees
* No marketing fees

[Hach-Que]

It depends on what kind of fees are involved, and whether the $99 developer's license is still applicable even for free applications (in which case it becomes an overwhelming obstacle to distribute on the Mac).

lol... overwhelming obstacle? To whom? 9 year old kids? I dropped more than that at my favorite restaurant last night, and the wine wasn't even that good.

Most people using Game Maker don't have $99 to splash around just so they can distribute some free applications.

Seriously, if you want to distribute free applications, join a Mac forum. There's thousands of them.

As I understand it, OSX 10.7 does away with the existing formats to distribute applications, i.e. you have to go through the App Store.

Besides, it may be free anyway (not sure):

http://developer.app...stribution.html

If you look on the left, it confirms my initial suspicions and says that you need to pay $99 to "Join the Mac Developer Program" under which it says "Gain access to all the resources and support you need to ... distribute Mac OS X apps on the Mac App Store."

[FredFredrickson]

Personally, I don't like the idea of an App Store for the desktop operating system. The next step is an obvious one: they will lock down the OS so that you cannot run applications that weren't purchased from the store, much like they've done with their other platforms.

That's not to say that people won't find a way around it (a la jailbreaking), but I don't like the idea of, by default, having everything I run checked against some kind of hardware security device, or worse, a server somewhere, before it is allowed to run.

Sure, it's good for developers in the short term. In the long term, however, it is a turn in the wrong direction if things end up going as I suspect. This goes against everything we've come to expect from using a computer platform, and undermines the efforts of those who spend their time pushing openness and transparency in their software.

Edited by FredFredrickson, 20 October 2010 - 11:22 PM.

[chance]

Most people using Game Maker don't have $99 to splash around just so they can distribute some free applications.

If you look on the left, it confirms my initial suspicions and says that you need to pay $99 to "Join the Mac Developer Program" under which it says "Gain access to all the resources and support you need to ... distribute Mac OS X apps on the Mac App Store."

Yes, you're right. But not everything in the world revolves around kids. If they can't afford the $99, then they can't participate here. But they can still create GM4Mac games and share them elsewhere.

Apple is running a business. It's not surprising they charge a nominal fee for developers to use their services. This seems like a very reasonable deal to me.

[FredFredrickson]

Apple is running a business. It's not surprising they charge a nominal fee for developers to use their services. This seems like a very reasonable deal to me.

How reasonable will it be when it eventually becomes the only way to install an app on your desktop machine? Personally, I think it sounds awful.

[chance]

How reasonable will it be when it eventually becomes the only way to install an app on your desktop machine? Personally, I think it sounds awful.

It would be unreasonable. But you're criticizing Apple for doing something they haven't done -- except in your paranoid delusions.

Why not wait until a crime is committed before you find them guilty?

[Hach-Que]

Most people using Game Maker don't have $99 to splash around just so they can distribute some free applications.

If you look on the left, it confirms my initial suspicions and says that you need to pay $99 to "Join the Mac Developer Program" under which it says "Gain access to all the resources and support you need to ... distribute Mac OS X apps on the Mac App Store."

Yes, you're right. But not everything in the world revolves around kids. If they can't afford the $99, then they can't participate here. But they can still create GM4Mac games and share them elsewhere.

Share them elsewhere how? How can you distribute games for Mac elsewhere if you have to go through the App Store? Now neither I nor anyone knows whether the existing distribution formats such as DMG, App, etc.. will be available on OSX 10.7. If they aren't then it poses an obstacle to most users who develop using GM. No-one wants to pay $99 just to distribute some free games that may get barely any plays (example: see iPhone App Store these days).

Apple is running a business. It's not surprising they charge a nominal fee for developers to use their services. This seems like a very reasonable deal to me.

I never said it was unreasonable to charge a fee to use their services; it's their system and they're free to do whatever they want with it. I'm simply pointing out that it's an obstacle to most Game Maker users and not an opportunity like NakedPaulToast said in his original post.

Edited by Hach-Que, 20 October 2010 - 11:35 PM.

[NakedPaulToast]

I'm simply pointing out that it's an obstacle to most Game Maker users and not an opportunity like NakedPaulToast said in his original post.

Of course it's an opportunity. How could it not be?

By creating an option, especially one that simply doesn't it exist, on the scale that Apple can provide, it doesn't take away anything. All of the options that already exist still do exist. But now there is another one. Nothing has been lost.

How reasonable will it be when it eventually becomes the only way to install an app on your desktop machine? Personally, I think it sounds awful.

You're looking for monsters under the bed, and they're not there.

There are a lot of things I don't like about Apple, I find them to be controlling, monopolistic and closed, worse than Microsoft ever was. But it would be absolute suicide to release a desktop OS with the only option to install Apps from their appstore. It would be foolish to think otherwise.

Apple made it clear in the keynote that this is not a requirement for Mac software distribution.

[ev149]

Personally, I think this is great for Game Maker users.  It provides a way to gain more players at a relatively low price (like chance said, $99 isn't a huge amount of money).  70% is a pretty fair deal, so if you do go commercial this will surely make things easier then say, creating a PayPal checkout for a Windows version.

Watched the keyote live and very much enjoyed it.  Can't wait 'til November to get my hands on it, and the "within 90 days" that consumers can use it.  On a slightly offtopic note, does anyone else think that $999 is expensive for a notebook with an 11.6 inch screen and only 64GB flash memory, even for an Apple product?

[FredFredrickson]

How reasonable will it be when it eventually becomes the only way to install an app on your desktop machine? Personally, I think it sounds awful.

You're looking for monsters under the bed, and they're not there.

There are a lot of things I don't like about Apple, I find them to be controlling, monopolistic and closed, worse than Microsoft ever was. But it would be absolute suicide to release a desktop OS with the only option to install Apps from their appstore. It would be foolish to think otherwise.

Apple made it clear in the keynote that this is not a requirement for Mac software distribution.

I don't think it's looking for monsters under the bed so much as merely anticipating the next logical step.

Microsoft has been probing around similar ideas, sending out surveys implying that there might be some interest in a kind of software repository for Windows, like the one found on Linux, to help people keep their software up to date (and I would assume, to help them find and / or purchase it as well).

With Apple being so obsessed with the idea of their computer platforms as "walled gardens", it is not so much a stretch to see them enacting policies similar to their mobile platforms on their desktop machines in the future. Besides, if there's one thing I've learned from Apple over the years, it's to never underestimate how far arrogance can take an idea.

Surely the odds of this happening far exceed me finding a monster hiding under my bed.

Watched the keyote live and very much enjoyed it. Can't wait 'til November to get my hands on it, and the "within 90 days" that consumers can use it. On a slightly offtopic note, does anyone else think that $999 is expensive for a notebook with an 11.6 inch screen and only 64GB flash memory, even for an Apple product?

Flash memory ain't cheap, but when you also note that the new MacBook Air has no optical drive, a tiny screen, a processor nearly 5 years old, no Ethernet port, and only 2 USB drives (no Firewire or eSata), $1000 doesn't just seem expensive; it seems absurd.

[Tumetsu]

I'm kind of with Fred here though I agree with NPT. Restricting would be a suicide for desktop machines. But, it's Apple, who knows what they will pull off? Even with that restriction if Apple could keep up their trend image I think many people would still buy their machines at least if store is properly stocked. So I'm sceptic with it but looking back at the Apples recent moves, I wouldn't be surprised if there would be introduced this kind of restriction. And how much we can trust in Apple saying they won't restrict the platform? But all in all, I too think it would be a suicide act and definitely a turnoff for every techsavvy customers.

[GearGOD]

How reasonable will it be when it eventually becomes the only way to install an app on your desktop machine? Personally, I think it sounds awful.

My thoughts exactly. Unfortunately this is exactly the kind of future I expect to see. There is too much to gain for corporations and goverments not to at least try to change computing to a walled garden.

Eg: Apple: app store + hardware encryption = no piracy (its bull**** but developers have bough it with the current handheld platform and will continue to). It also means no malware or viruses. It also means censorship, whether on Apples behalf or a local goverment (everybody knows that p2p is only used for piracy, so expect to eventually not find p2p apps there).

Eg2: many years down the track both apple and microsoft move to a cloud based architecture. With good internet infrastructure there is no reason not to. Thin clients are much cheaper than fat ones and cloud computing brings a host of great possibilities. Not too long after that, I expect that fat clients will become a niche market and everything will be done on the cloud. At this point goverments will decide that its a good idea to block consumers from ALL internet traffic except relating to the cloud services. This will be a hard fix for piracy, child porn, hacking, malware, identity theft, and your personal rights. It may not work for you but it will work for the 90%+ of the moron consumer population and it will certainly work for Apple, Microsoft, and Goverment.

[chance]

I don't think it's looking for monsters under the bed so much as merely anticipating the next logical step.

It may be Steve Jobs' fantasy, but that's all it'll ever be. It's naive to think Apple could get away with the level of monopoly you're suggesting here -- even if they tried. It might work for accessories (iStuff), but not for a desktop OS that's in such wide use (including the civil/govn sector).

There's lots of third-party software vendors who'd run screaming to the DOJ if Apple tried to force all sales to pass through their iStore.

Better chance of you getting hit by a comet, than Apple getting away with that.

[FredFredrickson]

Better chance of you getting hit by a comet, than Apple getting away with that.

Don't be so sure. All they'd have to do is point to their iPhone / iPod / iPad devices and ask why their desktop platform is any different. Then the DOJ would have to either make them open up those devices or allow them to make their desktop machines into the same "walled garden". Do you have faith that they will choose wisely?

I think the government can be good for a lot of things, but I don't trust them to make decisions this important. Especially not with a conservative, corporation-friendly Supreme Court.

As GearGOD mentioned above, a lot of people have already cast their vote in favor of this sort of thing by jumping onto the App Store bandwagon, regardless of how awful the TOS has been. They don't care if Apple says you can't use anything but their own software to create apps, or if Apple arbitrarily denies one app over another - as long as they can still make a quick pile of money selling fart apps, everyone's happy.

But then other companies like Microsoft or Google start taking notice in the lucrative nature of this approach, and next thing you know we're all running all of our content remotely, where it can be watched, checked, and cleared prior to being streamed into our local clients.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to sound like Mr. Doomsday here; I just want people to think about this stuff now, lest we wind up in a future where it's too late to do anything about it.

[scream681]

So what is Apple makes AppStore for the desktop OS? Windows Live Games is running for a long time already. MACs and Apple are overrated...

Apple is just trying to create closed markets where they apply all the rules, seriously, I will never understand how people can possible believe that their overpriced and locked hardware is in any way better than the rest.

Nick.

[ugriffin]

Apple cannot lock down the operating system without first getting rid of their EFI firmware. Even if they did try and lock down the OS with 10.7, you could just install a custom Darwin kernel and problem solved. EFI allows for this.

It's impossible that this happens on current hardware. It's just too open to lock down the OS, it would be pointless. On iOS devices, a custom firmware ensures that the device is only running an approved kernel, which is why jailbreakers are always looking for security flaws in the firmware, and once they find that they can install a custom Darwin kernel which isn't so restrictive.

I'm concerned that the Mac app store could upset the current software hierarchy and change the platform for worse, but Apple cannot be stupid enough to lock down something that can be hacked in five seconds.

[chance]

I'm not trying to sound like Mr. Doomsday here; I just want people to think about this stuff now, lest we wind up in a future where it's too late to do anything about it.

Don't worry. If that future happens, we can send an T-1000 Terminator back to the 20th century to kill Steve Jobs, before it's too late.

Of course by then, all Terminators will be made by Apple: known as iTerminators (physically incapable of harming Apple employees.) So it'll have to be reprogrammed (jailbroken so to speak).

[Revel]

Apple's itunes infrastructure, with the ability to handle micro-transactions, gift cards and convenient purchases has made online purchasing easy and accessible, especially to minors.

Wow, you sound like some sort of fanboy voice over for an apple advertisement. Much like how their advertisements claim how "good" Apple products are when they aren't all that special.


I agree with FredFredrickson. I would personally hate to have an "app store" for my desktop. The reason they are OK on mobile devices is because you don't have the time or screen space to go looking around the internet for applications. I already hated Macs way of installing applications, but the app store gives me more reason to stick with Windows.