132 replies to this topic

[Desert Dog]

+1 to NPT's post.

I'd very much like everyone who's doing this 'flag and tag' game to read it.

Also, please remember what A_saurus1, the man in charge, said...

Let me make it very clear that this event is targeting games with bad screenshots ONLY, and that the only thing that we are asking members to do is to send links to us (the mods of YYG). Members will not be making final judgment on any reports, and any misbehaving members will be taken care of.

[Andy]

@Andy: I'm sure many of the participants have good intentions, like you. But I feel that some of them are playground bullies having fun with their new whistle.

Either way, this action seems like an ex post facto law -- since there were no restrictions against it when the games were posted. So members are being punished retroactively for a rule that didn't exist at the time.

If "proper screenshots" are to become a requirement (which may be a good thing), is anyone working with YYG to get some rules/guidelines posted on the upload page?

I didn’t consider that people had obviously been uploading games before any such rule was in place. Even now I am unsure if it is a rule that you have to have a game play screen, I guess it is? If it is there has to be a message telling users when they upload games that this is the case. It wouldn’t be fair otherwise to expect people to know.

[EXPScoreBoy]

I'm just saying that the mods should be taking care of this instead of the non-mods, it's unnerving to see non-mods "controlling" YoYo to an extent.

Also, NakedPaulToast, that's exactly what I'm saying!

And, yes, people don't read. They skim the page, see "Select Images To Upload" and "Select Game File To Upload" and do just that. Nowhere do they read "You can automatically take screenshots while running a game in Gamemaker by pressing the F9 key." They skim right past it. Enough said (for now...)

[commander of games]

@NPT: These games may be on the last page, but why does that mean that they are any more deserving than the other games with bad screenshots? Now lets adress your points... Oh, and mind you, I didnt report tutorial edits with legitemt screenshots, and I was very, very generous. I could've gone on a mad rampage tagging all games with bad screenshots, but I didnt. I left some alone.

Chances are they are relatively new Game Maker users, they're probably young, and they are proud of their accomplishments. Are their accomplishments huge? No, not really. But they are probably very meaningful to them.

Why should we care about an 8-year old posting his first game that is just an edited Space Cleaner that he calls his own? If they are legitement authors, they will simply be asked to add a real screenshot, and they probobly will. Half the time the people who make tutorial edits never come back.

YYGs provided them with a resource to upload their games, and they put them there so they can show their friends and families.

If they want to show there friends and families, then why cant they just load the game up on there computer? Or are you talking about people who live far away?

Are these games hurting anyone? Probably not. They're not displacing the top played games, they're not displacing the top rated games, they're not displacing the spotlight games, they're not being presented first when searching games. They are doing no more harm than some kids vanity video uploaded to YouTube.

They are doing harm. Why? Because they are wasting valuable server space. It may not be much for one game, but collectively its alot. If YYG never had these games uploaded, then they probobly wouldnt have had to put ads on the forum, because they wouldnt require as much server space.

They are doing no harm and not using any kind of measurable resource.

They are using server space, and as i said before, collectively, that is alot.

Meanwhile you flag and delete fascists are potentially doing harm. YYGs put up this space and encourage people of all skill levels to Make and Share their games. You believe you are representing YYGs and their best interests, but still we have heard nothing from those who really do represent YYGs.

Just because they are new doesnt mean they have the right to post a slightly edited example and call it "their first game". Perhaps they may even learn something from this experience. What, you ask? To take real screenshots and to not upload tutorial edits.

I don't think you are representing YYGs positively at all, and I don't think that some of these potential Game Maker customers will be thrilled when their games are deleted or flagged because they don't have "a decent screenshot".

If they can make a space cleaner game, they most likely have Game Maker Pro(as far as I'm aware, Space Cleaner uses image_angle). And did you consider the fact that most of the bad screenshot games are from like, 2007-2008? And you know what? The author has uploaded that game, and never came back. So do you think they will care if we delete there pacman sprite screenshots?

Cripes, if you guys are now sharing tips to help find these games, then it's pretty obvious to me very few people are accidentlt stumpling upon them. The fact that some of them have only a few plays demonstrates pretty conclusively that they are not causing problems.

That "tip" was sarcastic, goddamnit. I'm suprised that someone like you wasnt able to recognize it. And what do you expect us to do, search whatever is popular and go through 50 pages just to find bad screenshot games? Sorry, but not everyone has the time or patience.

End this stupid event.

No.

[NakedPaulToast]

These games may be on the last page, but why does that mean that they are any more deserving than the other games with bad screenshots?

I never said anything about any games being more deserving than others. I'm not the guy who is actually tagging games, nor am I the guy deleting games. That's the only action that can be interpreted as selecting what games are more deserving. And that's the people taking part in this event.

Why should we care about an 8-year old posting his first game that is just an edited Space Cleaner that he calls his own? If they are legitimate authors, they will simply be asked to add a real screenshot, and they probably will. Half the time the people who make tutorial edits never come back.

You guys are claiming to be acting on YYGs behalf. That 8 year is either a customer who has spent money, or a potential customer. He's also a someone who was encouraged to share his game on the site.

If they want to show there friends and families, then why cant they just load the game up on there computer? Or are you talking about people who live far away?

Why should he? He was told he could share his game on site.

They are doing harm. Why? Because they are wasting valuable server space. It may not be much for one game, but collectively its a lot. If YYG never had these games uploaded, then they probably wouldn't have had to put ads on the forum, because they wouldn't require as much server space.

Have you got any idea how cheap disk is? You can get a terabyte drive for less than $100 bucks. Lets assume each of the games take 3 MB, a single terabyte drive would hold over 300,000 of these games. Your claim about these programs being responsible for the ads is alarmist non-sense. If saving disk drive is the goal then why is your solution to tell these people to upload screen shots? Your solution is using more space.

Just because they are new doesnt mean they have the right to post a slightly edited example and call it "their first game".

Yes, they do have that right. YYGs provided them with tutorials, and encouraged them to share their games. The first tutorial is actually called "Your First Game".

If they can make a space cleaner game, they most likely have Game Maker Pro(as far as I'm aware, Space Cleaner uses image_angle). And did you consider the fact that most of the bad screenshot games are from like, 2007-2008? And you know what? The author has uploaded that game, and never came back. So do you think they will care if we delete there pacman sprite screenshots?

What does having the pro-version have to do with this?

And I don't recall one of the criteria for marking and deleting games being:
-Ensure that the game is by someone who hasn't been back for 3 years.

That "tip" was sarcastic, goddamnit. I'm suprised that someone like you wasnt able to recognize it. And what do you expect us to do, search whatever is popular and go through 50 pages just to find bad screenshot games? Sorry, but not everyone has the time or patience.

I have no idea if you were being sarcastic or not. The point is; if it is so tedious and requires so many people to find these games then they really are not an issue.

[KC LC]

If YYG never had these games uploaded, then they probably wouldn't have had to put ads on the forum, because they wouldn't require as much server space

You can get a terabyte drive for less than $100 bucks. Lets assume each of the games take 3 MB, a single terabyte drive would hold over 300,000 of these games.
...
If saving disk drive is the goal then why is your solution to tell these people to upload screen shots? Your solution is using more space.

Looks like c_of_g fell victim to one of the classic blunders:

1. Never get involved in a land war in Asia.
2. Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.
3. Never use "made up" facts when arguing with NakedPaulToast.

[RedChu]

Really, this was intended to take place on July 24th through July 25th, not forever and always. I guess it doesn't matter if people are doing this early but it wasn't the point of the idea.

As for a rule regarding screenshots, it's safe to say that there will be a written one in the near future, as well as written rules for the entire YoYo Games site altogether. For the screenshots though, it will allow for only in-game screenshots and one logo for the game, and not random sprites or McDonald's logos that the user has lying around in some folder.

We usually remove the false screenshots and replace it with one screenshot that explains the situation. If nothing is done within a week, we mark the games as invisible so they are no longer seen by the public. However, the creator of the games can still see them, so if they decide to comply with the screenshot rules they will be able to and we can allow the public to see it once more.

What brings up another issue is that most of the time, games without proper screenshots generally not worth playing. If the creator didn't take the time to take screenshots of their creation, that should say something about the game itself. You cannot, however, judge a book by it's cover (or in this case, a game by it's screenshots), so it might be the greatest game ever made, but it just has a photo of a watermelon or a cat in place of actual screenshots. If this were the case, we would still remove the screenshots and replace it with our screenshot, and within a week and if no proper screenshots have been added, we would mark the game as invisible.

Anyway, I guess this day is for screenshots only. I originally thought it would be for junk games, such as blatant tutorial edits and those without proper screenshots as well. There are people who upload tutorials and change nothing or very little yet still claim them as their own, as if no one would notice.

I don't know how any of the other participating moderators feel, but I'd prefer it if everyone would wait until the planned date before starting this so we have time to prepare for an influx of messages containing the reports.

Edited by RedChu, 05 July 2010 - 09:14 PM.

[NakedPaulToast]

The Internet is a strange, fickle, ambiguous place.

You often simply can't predict how the masses will react, even if you are doing what you believe to be a good thing. Occasionally, things go viral and you end up with a PR mess.

This has that the potential for creating negative publicity.

For example; why is it that games made mostly by new users without adequate screenshots are a problem and must be deleted, yet games that are clear violations of copyright and trademark are allowed to stay?

On the front of the most played games list, at least 7 of the top 20 are in violation of other people's intellectual property. Now that you guys have chosen to delete some games, are you prepared to justify why you aren't willing to delete others? Games that clearly should be deleted and simply should not be there.

Do you think Sandy is prepared to answer that?

[WadeMcGillis]

If YYG never had these games uploaded, then they probably wouldn't have had to put ads on the forum, because they wouldn't require as much server space

You can get a terabyte drive for less than $100 bucks. Lets assume each of the games take 3 MB, a single terabyte drive would hold over 300,000 of these games.
...
If saving disk drive is the goal then why is your solution to tell these people to upload screen shots? Your solution is using more space.

Looks like c_of_g fell victim to one of the classic blunders:

1. Never get involved in a land war in Asia.
2. Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.
3. Never use "made up" facts when arguing with NakedPaulToast.

Inconceivable?

[KC LC]

As for a rule regarding screenshots, it's safe to say that there will be a written one in the near future...
...
...it will allow for only in-game screenshots and one logo for the game, and not random sprites or McDonald's logos

Good idea. The sooner the better. Once it's posted, you can discuss it on the YYG forum and allow a "grace period" for members to fix their screenshots.

THEN you can start enforcing it -- fairly, and without concern about retroactive punishment.

[True Valhalla]

3. Never use "made up" facts when arguing with NakedPaulToast.

Learning how to argue against NPT without looking like an idiot is a notable achievement on the journey to GMC veteran ;D

Regarding the cleanup, it think it's obvious this isn't going to be effective. If I was a nub, and my game that I thought was pure awesome was deleted, I'd simply reupload it.

I believe the best option is to send a mass mail to all YoYo Games accounts asking users to remove any of their games that they believe are poor quality. That way, no one gets angry, and some poor games will actually be removed. There's no feasible way to actually remove all the junk from YoYo, and to be honest it might be detrimental to GM sales.

-Tv

[Kyon]

I just deleted some of my games.
And with some, I mean one.
Hehe, I had some random game which was only an basic flying and shooting engine.
Rated 2 stars.

Anyway, I hope we remove everything which is under 3 stars.

[IQbrew]

NPT is right.
Why are games with poor screenshots to be hidden,
but games that infringe on copywrites okay to stay?

[Manuel777]

If "proper screenshots" are to become a requirement (which may be a good thing), is anyone working with YYG to get some rules/guidelines posted on the upload page?

That would be the best of the ideas... unfortunately YYG has rats on its source codes.

[BretHudson]

If it's possible I'll help too. Sign me up!
-Bretboy129 ~ Bret Hudson

[KC LC]

If "proper screenshots" are to become a requirement (which may be a good thing), is anyone working with YYG to get some rules/guidelines posted on the upload page?

That would be the best of the ideas... unfortunately YYG has rats on its source codes.

That's why I said "work with YYG" to get some rules/guidelines posted. YYG moderators could suggest it to Russell/Mike/Sandy. If it's a good idea, YYG will add it.

Otherwise, the moderators are enforcing a "rule" that's never been posted.

[commander of games]

NPT is right.
Why are games with poor screenshots to be hidden,
but games that infringe on copywrites okay to stay?

Jesus christ, that screenshot shows just how bad the noobs on YYG are. A Balloon Popping on the frontpage with 3 plays? What noob uprated that?

And at this point, I have to agree with NPT. Games with copyright violations are in the "YoYoLegends" list. They shouldnt even be allowed in the first place. The only reason they are there is because they profited of someone elses succes. I'd rather a game with a teddy bear for screenshots be up there than another Mario clone.

[KC LC]

that screenshot shows just how bad the noobs on YYG are. A Balloon Popping on the frontpage with 3 plays? What noob uprated that?

You seem to have a personal agenda that goes WAY beyond the original intent of this clean-up effort.

If I were leading this, I'd take away your whistle.

[commander of games]

that screenshot shows just how bad the noobs on YYG are. A Balloon Popping on the frontpage with 3 plays? What noob uprated that?

You seem to have a personal agenda that goes WAY beyond the original intent of this clean-up effort.

If I were leading this, I'd take away your whistle.

Care to elaborate? I'm doing this because I'd like to give the good games a chance. I want the noob games to fall to the bottom and the good games to be on top. The good games deserve the front page, balloon popping games do not.

Ok, for all those that think this clean-up is stupid:
Imagine you worked months, even years, on your amazing game. You finally finish it, and upload it to YYG. Then, boom. Its on page 30, never to see the light of day. Over half the games in the places before yours are noob games, uprated by people who are way to generous, duplicate accounts of the creator, and other noobs that actually like it.

I speak from experience(though my game is still a WIP, its nearing completion).

[LarsonCreativity]

that screenshot shows just how bad the noobs on YYG are. A Balloon Popping on the frontpage with 3 plays? What noob uprated that?

You seem to have a personal agenda that goes WAY beyond the original intent of this clean-up effort.

If I were leading this, I'd take away your whistle.

Care to elaborate? I'm doing this because I'd like to give the good games a chance. I want the noob games to fall to the bottom and the good games to be on top. The good games deserve the front page, balloon popping games do not.

Ok, for all those that think this clean-up is stupid:
Imagine you worked months, even years, on your amazing game. You finally finish it, and upload it to YYG. Then, boom. Its on page 30, never to see the light of day. Over half the games in the places before yours are noob games, uprated by people who are way to generous, duplicate accounts of the creator, and other noobs that actually like it.

I speak from experience(though my game is still a WIP, its nearing completion).

That's why I never upload any of my games, because I'm afraid of facing that exact kind of pompous attitude...

I don't care whether you have spent a couple years or a couple days in development, because YYG encourages everyone to upload their games. I understand your concerns and I agree that your described scenario would be frustrating, but that's the way YYG works, they give everyone an equal opportunity to succeed. Besides, if I did happen to create an amazing game, why would its release be limited to YYG in the first place? There are plenty of other appropriate places where one can upload their game.

I'm sure you were once a noob yourself, so I hope you can pull your head out of your behind and remember what YoYo is all about.

Worry about the screenshots...