116 replies to this topic

[storkEXEC]

All the rooms in Super Metroid can be represented by an entirely square grid.
Furthermore, having said grid does not make a game less good. And is this kid really 12, because most 12 year olds don't say things like: "logical fallacy", "refuted my arguments", "superficial glance" and "significant change in his voicing and his body language".

[PwnageMage]

So, after reading the back and forth arguments here, I've decided to enter as an unbiased party. After getting through the first few levels and beating the first boss, I've formed an opinion.

First, the gameplay. I found it really annoying to be honest. I felt my actions were severely limited. Only being able to shoot in one direction, and only while standing made me feel a lot weaker than I could have been if I had more control. Let's look at Contra, one of the greatest platform shooters ever. You're able to shoot while jumping, crouching, and in 8 directions. And the game is still one of the hardest games I've played. When I died in Iji, it was because I could only shoot while standing. If I had more control, I could probably increase my chance of survival. If I die, it should be because the game is legitimately difficult, not because I'm limited in my basic movement.

Next, the story. I like a good story and found the intro cutscenes to be really cool. However, I think it goes a bit overboard at times. There are too many of those "log files" laying around the levels. I think it would have been better for those to just be collectibles, and have the option to read them somewhere other than in game. I wanted to read them, but I wanted to keep the flow going so I just found myself skipping them because it was too tedious to read them all.

The graphics. The character sprites look really bad in my opinion. The tiles, cutscene art, and portraits were all pretty good though.

The music. I though the music was pretty kick ass, though not really memorable. I guess I didn't play far enough to hear all of it, but the songs weren't something that I can remember.

So, that's the gist of what I think of the game thus far. It's a decent game, but I think it gets a bit overpraised. There are just some flaws that prevent it from being a lot better.

[makerofthegames]

PwnageMage, I suggest you finish the game before forming your opinion fully, as you can't truly judge the story without seeing how it plays out, and you can't judge the music because you haven't heard all of it.
Plus, you may have died because you are unfamiliar with the game, as playing you'll probably get much better.

[Nights of Light]

Pretty decent review, and I agree with most of the points that were made throughout. One of the better (best?) GameMaker games out there. I've found myself playing many hours on this game and expect to play many more in the future.

Edited by Nights of Light, 28 August 2011 - 09:10 PM.

[mcoot]

@pwnagemage, I suggest completing the game before fully forming your opinion.

When I first played Iji I put it down after the 3rd sector, about where you did. That would have been soon after release, at version 1.2.

About a year later I kept hearing about the hype, and I played it through and loved it. Then I read the Tvtropes page and realised that it had multiple pathways and I loved it even more.

I have also just realised how hard it is to get Android's autocorrect to recognise 'Iji' as a word

[Saijee]

@ C swift. As much as your opinions seem similar to mine, I have to say you sound like a troll.

This game didn't do it for me, I actually made a review of it on youtube, gave it a "fair."

It is by no means a "bad game" however it is also not a very good game.

I'm too lazy to quote right now, but whoever was arguing with C swift about how "the controls aren't bad, you just didn't like them." I have to disagree with. That would be like saying, the fact that you have to use the D-Pad in SM64DS instead of an analog stick is just part of the difficulty, so deal with it; Iji's controls are clunky and restrictive, it cannot be doubted that the controls could have been done better. Ideally the player should be able to simply think of the action they want the character to do, and without even thinking of pressing the buttons, the character does it. That's how it should feel, but because of the huge restrictions on the controls, players often can feel that that was the only reason they died.

The graphics were bad, even Remar said so in that youtube vid, so there's nothing to defend or offend in those terms.

I didn't like the story because I didn't like the character's.

It just didn't feel like the game was catering toward any specific audience, being a normal fan of shooter-platformers, I was hoping that the action would be more fluid for Iji, but it was about as solid as the background music. After watching his NMS vid, it feels like he made Iji for the sake of making a free game for people to play, as opposed to having it catered toward a specific audience.

edit-------

About level design, I think C swift is saying that there wasn't any particular piece of a room in the game that you could use a reference point to determine were in the world you were. I get a similar feeling, there is a certain sameness to every fraction of each map. I think it is fair to say that this is again because of the highly restrictive controls.

Edited by Saijee, 28 August 2011 - 09:54 PM.

[makerofthegames]

Great, actual points being brought up. I applaud you, Saijee. I don't agree with you - - - obviously I like the game a lot more than you, but I have no issue with your post.

[Saijee]

It's hard to judge if this game would be considered successful for me, because contrary to popular belief there are quite a degree of people who didn't like the game.

If the game was catered toward a specific audience, then anyone could judge it's success by seeing of the targeted audience majority enjoyed the game. Any thing said by people who were not part of the target audience doesn't really matter. That's like someone who playes FPS's bashing Mario for not having a gun to shoot the turtles with. However anyone who is a solid FPSer is allowed more legitimate judgement toward any game targeted to FPS gamers (ex. one-who-enjoyed-Halo's opinion about COD means more than someone who only plays retro games judging COD).

If Iji was catered toward run-and-gun audience, then that would give opinions like mine (and even C swift...) more value than what some people allow. You simply cannot just say "I like it, he likes it, they like it, so because you don't like it and are out of the loop, your opinion doesn't matter." Needless to say that works both ways.

Edited by Saijee, 29 August 2011 - 02:31 AM.

[makerofthegames]

Good points, it also won the king of the cagematch. So I suppose the majority of cagematch-voting GMCers around the time of the cagematch like Iji.

Well, it found its niche. :3

[NinjaCatStudios]

If you don't like this game, I respect that opinion.
I, for one, loved this game.
It is one of the games that got me into indie gaming.
You may say it is bad in your opinion, but if you say it is a bad game please don't rub it in our faces.
If it truly is a bad game, then why is it one of the most popular Gamemaker games ever made?

(I'm not talking to you Saijee, you presented your opinion well and not trollfully)

[mcoot]

I'm too lazy to quote right now, but whoever was arguing with C swift about how "the controls aren't bad, you just didn't like them." I have to disagree with.

I found the controls fairly intuitive: Arrow keys and Z/X/C is pretty standard.

The graphics were bad, even Remar said so in that youtube vid, so there's nothing to defend or offend in those terms.

I found the graphics okay. I don't doubt they would have been better in higher detail (talking of, given that the game's open source now, is there any reason someone couldn't redo the graphics, adding extra detail and so forth?).

If Iji was catered toward run-and-gun audience, then that would give opinions like mine (and even C swift...) more value than what some people allow. You simply cannot just say "I like it, he likes it, they like it, so because you don't like it and are out of the loop, your opinion doesn't matter." Needless to say that works both ways.

It's perfectly fine that you don't like it. Looking through, for instance, the Bytejacker Free Indie of the Year 2008's comments section, there are some people who didn't like Iji. Very much in the minority, but still there.

That's fine. What isn't fine is commodore swift's idea that everyone should not like the game. See:

I could go on all day about the faults of Iji but they're self-evident to people who have a thinking mind.

Then you have people like the OP who give the game 10/10 in every category and just blatantly ignore the game's many faults. Personally I don't even know why zarley11 is even giving reviews when he is clearly not qualified to do so.

The comparison might seem unfair, since Iji is basically an unoriginal and poorly designed game whereas Super Metroid is the pinnacle of game design.

I don't think anyone (reasonable) has a problem with your point of view.
It's the sort of arrogant 'my view is objective fact' stance that commodore swift takes that causes heated argument.

Edited by mcoot, 29 August 2011 - 06:56 AM.

[Saijee]

It's somewhat difficult to come up with a reply to your above comment as it doesn't seem to be an actual argument as much as more talk about C Swift, but for you first comment:

That's not all there is to the controls, that's just the input. When we complain about the controls it's because they feel clunky and irresponcive due to being highly restrictive. Overall it just feels like "Iji is not listening to you, and not doing what you want her to do." And just seems that the game could have played a lot smoother if she was more responsive.

[storkEXEC]

My objective review of Iji after playing one level (I beat the game already.)

The controls add "artificial difficulty." The controls aren't so much hard to use as they are mind bendingly irritating. Apparently the only reason you can't shoot in the air is because Iji says the gun is to "heavy" to carry, yet she can bust open metal doors with her legs...you do the math. Much of the gameplay is built around the fact that you can't jump and shoot, which is ridiculous. The gameplay is more of a turn-based rpg than a shooter, hide behind crates and if there are no crates "man up" and hope your attacks are better than the enemies. Even worse there are these microscopic bug things that you rarely see until they already hurt you...I guess that's supposed to be realistic but it's just annoying...anyway its mind-numbing that you can't shoot at them because iji is too dumb to shoot and crouch at the same time. Super Metroid took a while for me to get the controls, id rather try shoving a cucumber up my butt than try to wall bounce up the ekans and electrocoons shaft and space jumping was even worse, so I still think Iji is easier to get the hang of, but the problem is there's "nothing" to get the hang of.

Also, the amount of terminals are ridiculous...Metroid Prime had a lot of them but still...Metroid's were either there for comedic effect, to immerse the player or just to inform the player what something was. This is just like...every single one seems the same and there's no point in reading them (although there are a lot of funny ones.)

The graphics are simple but good, I'm a fan of mspaint though so not everyone shares my optimism. You can tell they were animated with Blender if you look closely.

The plot was really good, I won't spoil it but there's a part where you don't even know to trust your own brother...won't tell you if he is good or bad you'll have to play to find out But yeah the story is really good

I really like the music I don't know why noone else does.

Overall great game if you take the time to read everything a great story and bosses will keep you entertained but a sequel should have more realistic gameplay and perhaps double jumps.

Edited by storkEXEC, 29 August 2011 - 05:01 PM.

[slam drago]

My objective review of Iji
*snip*

So your saying your opinion trumps all?

[storkEXEC]

My objective review of Iji
*snip*

So your saying your opinion trumps all?

omgosh im saying im trying to make my review as objective as possible

[makerofthegames]

Even worse there are these microscopic bug things that you rarely see until they already hurt you...I guess that's supposed to be realistic but it's just annoying...anyway its mind-numbing that you can't shoot at them because iji is too dumb to shoot and crouch at the same time.

If you payed attention during the game you may remember that blips are invincible. This isn't a "ooh I can't hit them with my shotgun" kinda thing, you can easily hit them - Nuke - Spread Rockets - Splinters etc, they're just not vulnerable.

Also:

more realistic gameplay and perhaps double jumps.

In the same sentence. Amazing.

Edited by makerofthegames, 29 August 2011 - 05:56 PM.

[storkEXEC]

Also:

more realistic gameplay and perhaps double jumps.

In the same sentence. Amazing.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool

[slam drago]

My objective review of Iji*snip*

So your saying your opinion trumps all?

omgosh im saying im trying to make my review as objective as possible *stupid smiley that everybody hates but still uses to make him feel good*

What do you mean?

Edited by slam drago, 29 August 2011 - 08:12 PM.

[Saijee]

He means as opposed to the other one he did, I think.

[commodore swift]

That's fine. What isn't fine is commodore swift's idea that everyone should not like the game. See:

No, that's not what I said at all. If you think I said that then please find a quotation of me doing so. All three quotes you provided were statements made by myself about very obvious faults of Iji, and the reason I'm frustrated is because die-hard lovers of Iji refuse to recognize them. For example, after I listed about a dozen very major faults in Iji, you dismissed them as "part of the engine" or something like that, which of course just means the engine is faulty.

Moving on. If any of you actually saw makerofthegames' posts before they got removed, you wouldn't be calling me a troll. The guy was flat-out calling me an "idiot" and "stupid", and if I seem trollish in any way then he's the one who incited that. A welcome addition to anyone's ignore list at any rate, and if people really think my headstrong statement of opinion is "trollish" then I can lighten up (and I will for this post). However, when I say that Iji has objective faults, I mean it. One way to measure an objective fault is simply to pit a game against other games, which I did in my comparison to S. Metroid. Examining both Iji's and S. Metroid's levels, the latter is clearly superior in terms of design and variation - and yes, there are objective, mathematical means of measuring variation. Does that make Iji a bad game? Well that is subjective, but perhaps I didn't make it clear that that is my opinion. It should be obvious, at any rate, but I guess some people don't read between the lines. That's especially the problem with people like mcoot who argue with the cogency of a child rather than an adult, in effect muddling the issue with their confusion. Speaking of opinions, it's actually been found in studies that people tend to like what they're exposed to most, regardless of quality. For example, if people listen to nothing but mp3's then people will prefer that format, despite .flac and .wav being objectively higher quality. So that might explain why, in an age of flash games and soulless FPS games, people might like a game like Iji. Let's face it, most Iji fanatics have probably not played Super Metroid on a real console, unfortunately. To conclude, my problem is with blind devotion to Iji, and I have no problem with people enjoying the game. An example of blind devotion is zarley11, the original review writer of this topic, who gave Iji almost perfect scores across the board. It's okay that he likes the game, but it's not okay that he gave such a lopsided review when Iji has so many obvious shortcomings (the fact that he knows nothing about game design is why I believe he's unqualified to be reviewing. It wasn't a personal attack as much as a necessary discreditation, like how you would want to discredit a surgeon who practices without having gone to medical school).

As for why I haven't played the entire game, well it's just that there are plenty of other games out there that can capture my attention within the first moments of playing them. Iji failed to do so, in fact I've tried 2 or 3 times to play past the second stage but it is simply too mindless and repetitive for my tastes. So there is no point in playing it when other games offer so much more in the way of cool design and interesting mechanics (also I heavily dislike Iji's soundtrack). The story is also not that interesting to me, I've read most of the logs and I thought they were pretty lame. I'm probably done with this topic for now, mcoot's style of argumentation is too annoying and too reliant on fallacious reasoning. I also have a feeling that I'm getting reported en masse by rabid Iji devotees (unusually large mod presence). PM if you have any questions.