116 replies to this topic

[mcoot]

I wasn't talking about my views, I was talking about Iji's design faults.

No, you weren't. Because they aren't faults. You don't like the way they work; that doesn't necessarily apply for everyone else.

All I said was that the gameplay sucks, so thanks for agreeing with me.

I didn't agree with you. Learn to read:

The engine isn't bad. On its own it wouldn't be a great experience. But it isn't on its own, and that's the point.

It was someone else who brought up story. Honestly I didn't get far enough to form an opinion on the story because the gameplay was boring and repetitive.

And that's why you're completely missing the point. If you go into it not looking at the story, you're missing most of the experience. You can't possibly claim to be able to judge the game objectively if you purposely didn't look at what is one of the most important factors.

[commodore swift]

Why are you still talking about story? I'm talking about gameplay (and the story's not even that good )

No, you weren't. Because they aren't faults. You don't like the way they work; that doesn't necessarily apply for everyone else.

- in Iji, you cannot shoot or kick while jumping
- you cannot shoot or kick while crouching
- you cannot shoot up or down
- you cannot move while on an elevator
- to kill an enemy, just duck behind a box and wait for them to stop shooting. no strategy or skill required. the "pacifist route" requires basically the same routine. there is almost no variation in enemies, and all of them are dealt with by ducking/shooting, even the bosses.
- most of the game isn't even spent playing, but reading through logs and conversations with Dan. eventually you just realize that they all say the same thing and start skipping them.
- dull and repetitive level design. each level is basically a long hallway with an elevator to another long hallway and with some enemies sprinkled in at random locations - always behind crates for you to duck under.
- dumb upgrade system. upgrading your kick doesn't make your kick stronger, it only lets you kick higher-tier enemies. upgrading Tasen doesn't make you do more damage, it only makes you able to wield better weapons. the upgrade system is also about as mindless as the gameplay
- literally zero replay value. starting on a higher difficulty only increases the damage you take, which basically means there's nothing new to find... except the secret areas
- the game's "secret areas" are found by kicking down tier-15 doors. lol...

You can't possibly claim to be able to judge the game objectively if you purposely didn't look at what is one of the most important factors.

Graphics: not the worst, but not the best either. it's just basic stuff made in MSpaint. B
Music: the music isn't cohesive, as in each stage has a song that sounds like it was made by a different person. it sounds like ultimortal ripped his music from a site like freesound.com. I wonder how much he paid HyperDuck.... F
Replayability: zero replayability. F
Gameplay: boring and repetitive. F
Story: who cares? you might as well be reading a book at this point if you wanted story. The story in Iji doesn't even make sense. It's about a group of humans who live in an alien-controlled facility for 5 months, somehow avoiding the Tasen while at the same time finding food, cracking the Tasen language, and building a cyborg (iji). Then the Tasen, an alien race with the coordination and technology to take over earth, just let Iji run around and kill them all. Yeah, video games aren't supposed to be realistic, but when a game that's known for its "story" has plotholes around every corner...

Then you have people like the OP who give the game 10/10 in every category and just blatantly ignore the game's many faults. Personally I don't even know why zarley11 is even giving reviews when he is clearly not qualified to do so. Some quotes:

The character moves smoothly, and jumping, kicking and shooting feels almost second nature.

If this were true, then you would be able to shoot or kick while jumping. The movement is pretty much the exact opposite of smooth and intuitive.

The RPG elements of the game are integrated very well. Anytime you pick up blue nano orbs that are dropped from fallen enemies or found in crates, they are added to your level up meter. When your meter is full, Iji levels up and when you come in contact with a nano station, you can assign an upgrade to supporting attributes.

He ignores the fact that you can only level up 5 times per stage - another serious design fault.

Yes, there are some flaws in how the game is told, but they are easily dismissed and actually easily to not even notice.

lol?

Edited by commodore swift, 25 August 2011 - 04:58 PM.

[mcoot]

Why are you still talking about story? I'm talking about gameplay (and the story's not even that good public/style_emoticons/default/confused.gif )

Because the story is part of the gameplay experience - and in this game, it's a very important part.

And how can you possibly judge the story. As you said yourself:

Honestly I didn't get far enough to form an opinion on the story because the gameplay was boring and repetitive.

So, how would you know whether the story is 'that good' if you haven't actually completed it?

- in Iji, you cannot shoot or kick while jumping
- you cannot shoot or kick while crouching
- you cannot shoot up or down
- you cannot move while on an elevator

So? That's part of the engine: the gameplay is designed around those characteristics. A game doesn't need to have 360 degree shooting, you know.

- to kill an enemy, just duck behind a box and wait for them to stop shooting. no strategy or skill required. the "pacifist route" requires basically the same routine. there is almost no variation in enemies, and all of them are dealt with by ducking/shooting, even the bosses.
- most of the game isn't even spent playing, but reading through logs and conversations with Dan. eventually you just realize that they all say the same thing and start skipping them.
- dull and repetitive level design. each level is basically a long hallway with an elevator to another long hallway and with some enemies sprinkled in at random locations - always behind crates for you to duck under.
- dumb upgrade system. upgrading your kick doesn't make your kick stronger, it only lets you kick higher-tier enemies. upgrading Tasen doesn't make you do more damage, it only makes you able to wield better weapons. the upgrade system is also about as mindless as the gameplay
- literally zero replay value. starting on a higher difficulty only increases the damage you take, which basically means there's nothing new to find... except the secret areas
- the game's "secret areas" are found by kicking down tier-15 doors. lol...

You clearly haven't played the game very far.

Point 1:

A lot of the time, you can't duck and shoot, seeing as how higher tier enemies can break crates.

And as far as I'm aware there is no boss that can be dealt with that way - Krotera's room doesn't have crates, and elites can break them anyway. The other bosses generally aren't dealt with through standard weapons (unless you're obsessively hunting Supercharges).

Point 2:

No wonder you don't like the story: you aren't reading it. And they really don't say the same thing.

Point 3:

Its possible that you could legitimately think that if you'd only played the first level. But if you'd completed the game you'd know how stupid that sounds.

Point 4:

Except that it does. Try kicking a Tasen scout with a level 3 (I think that's the minimum) kick, and then again with a level 10 kick. Note the difference.

Point 5:

Again, that's just plain false. Higher difficulties do increase the damage of some weapons against you, but they also change other things: level cap, ammo, availability of health refills, the number and type of enemies in an area, enemy health, enemy speed etc.

Point 6:

There is no area in the game that is unlocked by kicking a level 15 door. Literally none.

Graphics: not the worst, but not the best either. it's just basic stuff made in MSpaint. B
Music: the music isn't cohesive, as in each stage has a song that sounds like it was made by a different person. it sounds like ultimortal ripped his music from a site like freesound.com. I wonder how much he paid HyperDuck.... F
Replayability: zero replayability. F
Gameplay: boring and repetitive. F
Story: who cares? you might as well be reading a book at this point if you wanted story. The story in Iji doesn't even make sense. It's about a group of humans who live in an alien-controlled facility for 5 months, somehow avoiding the Tasen while at the same time finding food, cracking the Tasen language, and building a cyborg (iji). Then the Tasen, an alien race with the coordination and technology to take over earth, just let Iji run around and kill them all. Yeah, video games aren't supposed to be realistic, but when a game that's known for its "story" has plotholes around every corner...

Graphics:

I'm not sure what the tilesets were made in (Photoshop?), but the character sprites were certainly not made in Paint. They were rendered using flat-shading from 3d models in Blender.

Music:

Try telling that to HyperDuck. In case you hadn't noticed, Iji launched their careers as video game sound designers and composers.

Replayability/gameplay:

In your opinion. Not in the opinion of the people who voted Iji King of the Cagematch.

Story:

Is there any reason why games can't be story-based? Why can't games offer story as an experience?

Regarding the so-called 'plothole'

*facepalm* I'm not even going to go into the problems with that. You could have identified an actual plothole (there are one or two, though I don't think that they are irresolvable), but you didn't, and honestly I don't think you've played far enough through the game to find any of those. Just play the game and read the story. Then you might understand.

If this were true, then you would be able to shoot or kick while jumping. The movement is pretty much the exact opposite of smooth and intuitive.

Tell me, in real life, do you honestly think that it's realistically possible for someone to hold a gun that's about half their size, aim it and fire it while jumping?

He ignores the fact that you can only level up 5 times per stage - another serious design fault.

You call it 'design fault', I call it balancing. If you could level up as much as you wanted you'd be able to simply go on a rampage and have every stat maxed out by sector 4.


The moral of the rant story is: don't play the first one or two levels in a popular game and then claim to be able to objectively call it horrible and dismiss the views of the vast majority.

Also, lol, I had to merge the quotes because there were more quote boxes than the forum software allows

[commodore swift]

So, how would you know whether the story is 'that good' if you haven't actually completed it?

Wikipedia. The story is basically a grandiose apocalypse scenario.

So? That's part of the engine: the gameplay is designed around those characteristics. A game doesn't need to have 360 degree shooting, you know.

The poor engine limits the gameplay in terms of tactics and depth. Contra didn't have 360 shooting but it also wasn't a mindless, duck behind crates shooter.

Point 3:

Its possible that you could legitimately think that if you'd only played the first level. But if you'd completed the game you'd know how stupid that sounds.

I played the first two stages and they were equally uneventful.

Point 4:

Except that it does. Try kicking a Tasen scout with a level 3 (I think that's the minimum) kick, and then again with a level 10 kick. Note the difference.

Point 5:

Again, that's just plain false. Higher difficulties do increase the damage of some weapons against you, but they also change other things: level cap, ammo, availability of health refills, the number and type of enemies in an area, enemy health, enemy speed etc.

You haven't played the game, have you?

"If you don't have, say, three points in fighting, you can't attack a certain type of guard. It's not that you don't do much damage, or that you can't knock him down -- it's that you literally can't attack him. Your kicks simply do nothing, as he blasts away at your health bar. Only after putting the requisite amount of points into your skills can you screw with certain guards, and even after adding more points, you don't do any more damage to those guards. One type of guard, once you've got enough points to attack him, will take three kicks to die no matter how high you've leveled your physical combat stat."

Point 6:

There is no area in the game that is unlocked by kicking a level 15 door. Literally none.

You haven't played the game, have you?

Graphics:

I'm not sure what the tilesets were made in (Photoshop?), but the character sprites were certainly not made in Paint. They were rendered using flat-shading from 3d models in Blender.

Music:

Try telling that to HyperDuck. In case you hadn't noticed, Iji launched their careers as video game sound designers and composers.

Graphics: Really? I couldn't tell the difference.

Music: The music was not just sloppy - more importantly, it was not memorable. There was no common motif between the songs. Try whistling a melody from Iji. You can't, because most of the music is random and aimless doodling. Also, if Hyperduck were capable composers they wouldn't need a bad freeware game to "launch their careers."

Regarding the so-called 'plothole'

*facepalm* I'm not even going to go into the problems with that. You could have identified an actual plothole (there are one or two, though I don't think that they are irresolvable), but you didn't, and honestly I don't think you've played far enough through the game to find any of those. Just play the game and read the story. Then you might understand.

I think its funny that you don't address the plotholes I pointed out, and then further down you talk about how not being able to shoot while jumping is "realistic." Pretty sure people can't jump 3x their own height in real life while holding a gun, either.

The moral of the rant story is: don't play the first one or two levels in a popular game and then claim to be able to objectively call it horrible and dismiss the views of the vast majority.

The vast majority also think that games like GTA and Assassin's Creed are good, so I don't see how that proves anything.

[storkEXEC]

So...reading a summary of a story isn't the same as experiencing the damn story...if that was the case then why would any one go to the movies or read books...they would just read summaries instead.

you read it from wikipedia...what a laugh

first two stages...what a laugh

the music was awesome...in fact i could listen to itself without playing the game

[commodore swift]

If the first two stages are dull and boring, why would I want to continue playing? And yes, the story is basically just an adolescent fantasy of saving the world, I don't need to experience that kind of juvenile nonsense firsthand.

[mcoot]

The poor engine limits the gameplay in terms of tactics and depth. Contra didn't have 360 shooting but it also wasn't a mindless, duck behind crates shooter.

You're showing your ignorance here. Ducking behind crates is a really, really bad strategy in Iji. Go to sector eight. Go find an annihilator and try to kill that by ducking behind crates and firing.

I played the first two stages and they were equally uneventful.

So basically your argument boils down to 'Hurr derp, I played the first two levels and I don't think it's good, therefore everyone who thinks it's good is stupid.'

You haven't played the game, have you? public/style_emoticons/default/snitch.gif

"If you don't have, say, three points in fighting, you can't attack a certain type of guard. It's not that you don't do much damage, or that you can't knock him down -- it's that you literally can't attack him. Your kicks simply do nothing, as he blasts away at your health bar. Only after putting the requisite amount of points into your skills can you screw with certain guards, and even after adding more points, you don't do any more damage to those guards. One type of guard, once you've got enough points to attack him, will take three kicks to die no matter how high you've leveled your physical combat stat."

So, to back up your case, you're quoting from widely criticised destructoid review, in which the review also admits to doing the same thing as you: only playing the first couple of levels and not reading the story at all.

Indeed, you can't kick certain enemies without a certain strength stat. But the distance and power of your kick does increase beyond that. As I said: try kicking a scout at level 3 kick, and again at level 10.

You haven't played the game, have you? public/style_emoticons/default/snitch.gif

Wow. Just... wow. You realise those doors don't lead to secret areas, don't you?

Graphics: Really? I couldn't tell the difference.

Well, you don't seem to have proven yourself an accurate judge, so no surprise there.

Music: The music was not just sloppy - more importantly, it was not memorable. There was no common motif between the songs. Try whistling a melody from Iji. You can't, because most of the music is random and aimless doodling. Also, if Hyperduck were capable composers they wouldn't need a bad freeware game to "launch their careers."

I promise you that I could. 'No memorable tunes', eh? The most easily recognisable tune would be the Tor theme, but you probably haven't heard that because you haven't gotten far enough in the game.

Here's a fun game. How about you say how much you hate Hyperduck's music to their virtual faces. Even better, post a copy of what you send to an indie gaming forum, and see how much scorn you get.

I think its funny that you don't address the plotholes I pointed out

Mostly because that isn't a plot hole.

I don't particularly post a recap of the whole story, but suffice it to say: saying that the Tasen had any sort of real coordination in invading Earth shows how completely you are missing the point.

and then further down you talk about how not being able to shoot while jumping is "realistic." Pretty sure people can't jump 3x their own height in real life while holding a gun, either.

Indeed, the jump height is not realistic. But I'm not the one who was talking about how 'unintuitive' not being able to jump and fire was. The game's levels are designed around not being able to jump and fire.

If the first two stages are dull and boring, why would I want to continue playing? And yes, the story is basically just an adolescent fantasy of saving the world, I don't need to experience that kind of juvenile nonsense firsthand.

Except it isn't. It really isn't. You've totally missed the entire point. Clearly you're just too stupid to know the difference between playing the genre straight and a deconstruction.

[Fihrilkamal]

There's actually no point to debate about "Iji" with someone that think Iji can kick level 15 shield door (Everybody that played Iji should know that Iji's maximum strength is 10), it'll only waste our times. It's better to play Iji again and again

[commodore swift]

There's actually no point to debate about "Iji" with someone that think Iji can kick level 15 shield door (Everybody that played Iji should know that Iji's maximum strength is 10), it'll only waste our times. It's better to play Iji again and again

If Iji can't kick a level 15 door, then why is it there? Seems like a very large oversight on Ultimortal's part to include an inaccessible area. Also, mcoot said that there is no area contains a level 15 door whereas I showed otherwise.

[makerofthegames]

mcoot said that there is no area contains a level 15 door whereas I showed otherwise.

No offense, but mcoot never said that.
This is what mcoot said:

There is no area in the game that is unlocked by kicking a level 15 door. Literally none.

[mcoot]

If Iji can't kick a level 15 door, then why is it there?

It acts as a barrier to prevent you from leaving the level. The only reason why a level 15 door is used there is because it would make less sense to have the start of the level tiled off. Having the door gives an aesthetic impression that it is a continuation of the previous level.

Also, mcoot said that there is no area contains a level 15 door whereas I showed otherwise.

I never said that. Learning to read is a good skill:

There is no area in the game that is unlocked by kicking a level 15 door. Literally none.

[commodore swift]

Add that to the list of Iji's design faults: inability to go back to previous levels, due to level-15 door being in the way I guess it shouldn't matter, since every level is pretty much the same anyway.

[mcoot]

Add that to the list of Iji's design faults: inability to go back to previous levels, due to level-15 door being in the way public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

And what, exactly, would be the point of going back to a previous level?

I guess it shouldn't matter, since every level is pretty much the same anyway.

How would you know? It's not like you've played those levels.

Edited by mcoot, 28 August 2011 - 02:30 AM.

[commodore swift]

Add that to the list of Iji's design faults: inability to go back to previous levels, due to level-15 door being in the way public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

And what, exactly, would be the point of going back to a previous level?

Why don't you ask the creator of System Shock 2, the game that Iji ripped off is based on

How would you know? It's not like you've played those levels.

I like how you don't try to deny it

[mcoot]

Why don't you ask the creator of System Shock 2, the game that Iji ripped off is based on

If you want to get into that area, I would recommend you watch Daniel Remar's recent No More Sweden talk, partially about originality in games.

I like how you don't try to deny it

I do deny it:



versus



The maps are drawn in the same style for obvious consistency reasons, but the level layouts are far from 'the same'. One goes through air vents and hallways through two buildings. The other has you go to an armoury, and up by elevator to a Komato landing ship.

Not 'the same'.

Edited by mcoot, 28 August 2011 - 06:22 AM.

[commodore swift]

Why don't you ask the creator of System Shock 2, the game that Iji ripped off is based on

If you want to get into that area, I would recommend you watch Daniel Remar's recent No More Sweden talk, partially about originality in games.

I watched that interview. Someone in the audience calls him out for being unoriginal, and he gets really nervous

I like how you don't try to deny it

I do deny it:



versus

Hold on, let me just find my microscope.

Edit: found my microscope. Yep... just a bunch of hallways.

Iji's directions are all solid up/down/left/right. it's so machine-like. it's not like Super Metroid where things go in all directions (except walls and doors), which to me is lame. You can't even use those images as proof that the layouts are different, since it just looks like the creator took the rectangular hallways from the first one, rearranged them, and got... more rectangular hallways in the second one.

Super Metroid is a far better example of good, diverse, varied map design than Iji will ever be. The comparison might seem unfair, since Iji is basically an unoriginal and poorly designed game whereas Super Metroid is the pinnacle of game design. But honestly you can take level diagrams from pretty much any snes game and they most likely won't be a bunch of long, rectangular hallways.

http://kayin.pyoko.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/super_metroid.png

Edited by commodore swift, 28 August 2011 - 07:07 AM.

[Nocturne]

Commodore swift, I get the feeling you are just spamming up this topic for the hell of it. That map you posted looks remarkably similar to the Iji maps, and in all honesty does nothing to back up your argument. In fact, so far, nothing you have said can be backed up due to the fact that you have not actually played through the game and are basing your opinions on a wiki plot-summary and a half-arsed playthrough of the first two levels. Personally I wouldn't even bother trying to refute your "arguments" as it is obviously a waste of time... jealousy is a terrible thing.

[mcoot]

I watched that interview. Someone in the audience calls him out for being unoriginal, and he gets really nervous

Are you sure... I don't think you listened particularly hard if that's what you got out of it. Especially since it isn't, you know, an interview.

Edit: found my microscope. Yep... just a bunch of hallways.

Except not.

See here:



Down the bottom, there the blue space is, and the areas on either side.

That's a large open space with enemies everywhere, spanning three floors. Guess what it is. Hint: not a hallway.

The comparison might seem unfair, since Iji is basically an unoriginal and poorly designed game whereas Super Metroid is the pinnacle of game design.

Unfair, eh? JayIs Games sure doesn't think so:

Iji is fantastic. I mentioned Super Metroid for a reason: for my money, Iji is even better. You may or may not agree, but Iji doesn't cost a cent, so what are you waiting for?

Iji's directions are all solid up/down/left/right.

Firstly, that's factually incorrect. There are numerous pieces of sloped ground. Admittedly it mostly is fairly straight, but that's kind of what you'd expect in a military facility.

You can't even use those images as proof that the layouts are different, since it just looks like the creator took the rectangular hallways from the first one, rearranged them, and got... more rectangular hallways in the second one.

Yeah. That Super Metroid layout looks like Nintendo just took room arrangements from one area, and rearranged them in a different area, in a different way! Scandalous!

That's kind of how level design works.

[commodore swift]

Commodore swift, I get the feeling you are just spamming up this topic for the hell of it.

It's not spam because I've backed up my arguments with reasons as to why Iji has poor gameplay, and no one has given reasons why Iji has good gameplay or even refuted my arguments. "That map you posted looks remarkably similar to the Iji maps" this claim is just silly - did you even look at the super metroid map, apart from a superficial glance? There is much more variety in level construction. What's more important is that Super Metroid is much more fun to play and much less repetitive because the game wasn't designed around a bad engine.

Unfair, eh? JayIs Games sure doesn't think so:

mcoot, quoting other people is not a valid method of arguing. In fact, it's a logical fallacy, called appeal to authority.

Yeah. That Super Metroid layout looks like Nintendo just took room arrangements from one area, and rearranged them in a different area, in a different way! Scandalous!

That's kind of how level design works.

No. Not good level design.

Are you sure... I don't think you listened particularly hard if that's what you got out of it.

There's a significant change in his voicing and his body language after being asked that question. I'd say he was nervous as heck.

[mcoot]

It's not spam because I've backed up my arguments with reasons

Let me stop you there. You haven't backed up your arguments with reasons, or at least with reasons comprehensible to anyone else.

What's more important is that Super Metroid is much more fun to play and much less repetitive because the game wasn't designed around a bad engine.

Not a bad engine, an engine you don't like. Don't pretend you're stating an objective fact.

There are objective criteria for a bad engine: the biggest one would be glitches and crashes. But specific aspects of gameplay such as 'no firing while jumping' are not something on which your opinion can possibly be objective.

mcoot, quoting other people is not a valid method of arguing. In fact, it's a logical fallacy, called appeal to authority.

How can this get any more cliche? People who think they understand logical fallacies but don't is practically a staple of internet discussion.

It is true, an 'authority', in this case a reviewer, liking something doesn't automatically make something good. But, the point of their position is to provide a 'respected view'. And with something as subjective as liking a game, there are always going to be people who disagree.

What's important is the point that your view is not objective fact. There are in fact many people, influential people in the indie community, who think that Iji is a fantastic game. I'll repeat for emphasis: your view is not objective fact.

Plus, you put my name in there, so your argument must be an ad hominem!

No. Not good level design.

Yes, pretty much all level design.

I'll bet you Super Metroid's layout is tile-based. Virtually all SNES games were. Every component of every room is based on a reusable component.

There's a significant change in his voicing and his body language after being asked that question. I'd say he was nervous as heck.

Try watching it again. Focus on the PowerPoint presentation. Tell me, what words do you see that might be relevant to this point?