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#51 mcoot

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 12:18 AM

If Iji can't kick a level 15 door, then why is it there?


It acts as a barrier to prevent you from leaving the level. The only reason why a level 15 door is used there is because it would make less sense to have the start of the level tiled off. Having the door gives an aesthetic impression that it is a continuation of the previous level.

Also, mcoot said that there is no area contains a level 15 door whereas I showed otherwise.


I never said that. Learning to read is a good skill:

There is no area in the game that is unlocked by kicking a level 15 door. Literally none.


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#52 commodore swift

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 02:26 AM

Add that to the list of Iji's design faults: inability to go back to previous levels, due to level-15 door being in the way :) I guess it shouldn't matter, since every level is pretty much the same anyway.
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#53 mcoot

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 02:30 AM

Add that to the list of Iji's design faults: inability to go back to previous levels, due to level-15 door being in the way public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif


And what, exactly, would be the point of going back to a previous level?

I guess it shouldn't matter, since every level is pretty much the same anyway.


How would you know? It's not like you've played those levels.

Edited by mcoot, 28 August 2011 - 02:30 AM.

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#54 commodore swift

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 04:58 AM

Add that to the list of Iji's design faults: inability to go back to previous levels, due to level-15 door being in the way public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif


And what, exactly, would be the point of going back to a previous level?

Why don't you ask the creator of System Shock 2, the game that Iji ripped off is based on :snitch:

How would you know? It's not like you've played those levels.

I like how you don't try to deny it :medieval:
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#55 mcoot

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 06:22 AM

Why don't you ask the creator of System Shock 2, the game that Iji ripped off is based on


If you want to get into that area, I would recommend you watch Daniel Remar's recent No More Sweden talk, partially about originality in games.

I like how you don't try to deny it


I do deny it:

Posted Image

versus

Posted Image

The maps are drawn in the same style for obvious consistency reasons, but the level layouts are far from 'the same'. One goes through air vents and hallways through two buildings. The other has you go to an armoury, and up by elevator to a Komato landing ship.

Not 'the same'.

Edited by mcoot, 28 August 2011 - 06:22 AM.

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#56 commodore swift

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 06:53 AM

Why don't you ask the creator of System Shock 2, the game that Iji ripped off is based on


If you want to get into that area, I would recommend you watch Daniel Remar's recent No More Sweden talk, partially about originality in games.

I watched that interview. Someone in the audience calls him out for being unoriginal, and he gets really nervous :sweat:

I like how you don't try to deny it


I do deny it:

Posted Image

versus

Posted Image

Hold on, let me just find my microscope.

Edit: found my microscope. Yep... just a bunch of hallways.

Iji's directions are all solid up/down/left/right. it's so machine-like. it's not like Super Metroid where things go in all directions (except walls and doors), which to me is lame. You can't even use those images as proof that the layouts are different, since it just looks like the creator took the rectangular hallways from the first one, rearranged them, and got... more rectangular hallways in the second one.

Super Metroid is a far better example of good, diverse, varied map design than Iji will ever be. The comparison might seem unfair, since Iji is basically an unoriginal and poorly designed game whereas Super Metroid is the pinnacle of game design. But honestly you can take level diagrams from pretty much any snes game and they most likely won't be a bunch of long, rectangular hallways.

http://kayin.pyoko.o...per_metroid.png

Edited by commodore swift, 28 August 2011 - 07:07 AM.

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#57 Nocturne

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 07:23 AM

Commodore swift, I get the feeling you are just spamming up this topic for the hell of it. That map you posted looks remarkably similar to the Iji maps, and in all honesty does nothing to back up your argument. In fact, so far, nothing you have said can be backed up due to the fact that you have not actually played through the game and are basing your opinions on a wiki plot-summary and a half-arsed playthrough of the first two levels. Personally I wouldn't even bother trying to refute your "arguments" as it is obviously a waste of time... jealousy is a terrible thing.
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#58 mcoot

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 07:27 AM

I watched that interview. Someone in the audience calls him out for being unoriginal, and he gets really nervous


Are you sure... I don't think you listened particularly hard if that's what you got out of it. Especially since it isn't, you know, an interview.

Edit: found my microscope. Yep... just a bunch of hallways.


Except not.

See here:

Posted Image

Down the bottom, there the blue space is, and the areas on either side.

That's a large open space with enemies everywhere, spanning three floors. Guess what it is. Hint: not a hallway.

The comparison might seem unfair, since Iji is basically an unoriginal and poorly designed game whereas Super Metroid is the pinnacle of game design.


Unfair, eh? JayIs Games sure doesn't think so:

Iji is fantastic. I mentioned Super Metroid for a reason: for my money, Iji is even better. You may or may not agree, but Iji doesn't cost a cent, so what are you waiting for?


Iji's directions are all solid up/down/left/right.


Firstly, that's factually incorrect. There are numerous pieces of sloped ground. Admittedly it mostly is fairly straight, but that's kind of what you'd expect in a military facility.

You can't even use those images as proof that the layouts are different, since it just looks like the creator took the rectangular hallways from the first one, rearranged them, and got... more rectangular hallways in the second one.


Yeah. That Super Metroid layout looks like Nintendo just took room arrangements from one area, and rearranged them in a different area, in a different way! Scandalous!

That's kind of how level design works.
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#59 commodore swift

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 07:38 AM

Commodore swift, I get the feeling you are just spamming up this topic for the hell of it.

It's not spam because I've backed up my arguments with reasons as to why Iji has poor gameplay, and no one has given reasons why Iji has good gameplay or even refuted my arguments. "That map you posted looks remarkably similar to the Iji maps" this claim is just silly - did you even look at the super metroid map, apart from a superficial glance? There is much more variety in level construction. What's more important is that Super Metroid is much more fun to play and much less repetitive because the game wasn't designed around a bad engine.

Unfair, eh? JayIs Games sure doesn't think so:

mcoot, quoting other people is not a valid method of arguing. In fact, it's a logical fallacy, called appeal to authority.

Yeah. That Super Metroid layout looks like Nintendo just took room arrangements from one area, and rearranged them in a different area, in a different way! Scandalous!

That's kind of how level design works.

No. Not good level design.

Are you sure... I don't think you listened particularly hard if that's what you got out of it.

There's a significant change in his voicing and his body language after being asked that question. I'd say he was nervous as heck.
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#60 mcoot

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:13 AM

It's not spam because I've backed up my arguments with reasons


Let me stop you there. You haven't backed up your arguments with reasons, or at least with reasons comprehensible to anyone else.

What's more important is that Super Metroid is much more fun to play and much less repetitive because the game wasn't designed around a bad engine.


Not a bad engine, an engine you don't like. Don't pretend you're stating an objective fact.

There are objective criteria for a bad engine: the biggest one would be glitches and crashes. But specific aspects of gameplay such as 'no firing while jumping' are not something on which your opinion can possibly be objective.

mcoot, quoting other people is not a valid method of arguing. In fact, it's a logical fallacy, called appeal to authority.


How can this get any more cliche? People who think they understand logical fallacies but don't is practically a staple of internet discussion.

It is true, an 'authority', in this case a reviewer, liking something doesn't automatically make something good. But, the point of their position is to provide a 'respected view'. And with something as subjective as liking a game, there are always going to be people who disagree.

What's important is the point that your view is not objective fact. There are in fact many people, influential people in the indie community, who think that Iji is a fantastic game. I'll repeat for emphasis: your view is not objective fact.

Plus, you put my name in there, so your argument must be an ad hominem!

No. Not good level design.


Yes, pretty much all level design.

I'll bet you Super Metroid's layout is tile-based. Virtually all SNES games were. Every component of every room is based on a reusable component.

There's a significant change in his voicing and his body language after being asked that question. I'd say he was nervous as heck.


Try watching it again. Focus on the PowerPoint presentation. Tell me, what words do you see that might be relevant to this point?
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#61 storkEXEC

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 04:11 PM

All the rooms in Super Metroid can be represented by an entirely square grid.
Furthermore, having said grid does not make a game less good. And is this kid really 12, because most 12 year olds don't say things like: "logical fallacy", "refuted my arguments", "superficial glance" and "significant change in his voicing and his body language".
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#62 PwnageMage

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 05:29 PM

So, after reading the back and forth arguments here, I've decided to enter as an unbiased party. After getting through the first few levels and beating the first boss, I've formed an opinion.

First, the gameplay. I found it really annoying to be honest. I felt my actions were severely limited. Only being able to shoot in one direction, and only while standing made me feel a lot weaker than I could have been if I had more control. Let's look at Contra, one of the greatest platform shooters ever. You're able to shoot while jumping, crouching, and in 8 directions. And the game is still one of the hardest games I've played. When I died in Iji, it was because I could only shoot while standing. If I had more control, I could probably increase my chance of survival. If I die, it should be because the game is legitimately difficult, not because I'm limited in my basic movement.

Next, the story. I like a good story and found the intro cutscenes to be really cool. However, I think it goes a bit overboard at times. There are too many of those "log files" laying around the levels. I think it would have been better for those to just be collectibles, and have the option to read them somewhere other than in game. I wanted to read them, but I wanted to keep the flow going so I just found myself skipping them because it was too tedious to read them all.

The graphics. The character sprites look really bad in my opinion. The tiles, cutscene art, and portraits were all pretty good though.

The music. I though the music was pretty kick ass, though not really memorable. I guess I didn't play far enough to hear all of it, but the songs weren't something that I can remember.

So, that's the gist of what I think of the game thus far. It's a decent game, but I think it gets a bit overpraised. There are just some flaws that prevent it from being a lot better.
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#63 makerofthegames

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:55 PM

PwnageMage, I suggest you finish the game before forming your opinion fully, as you can't truly judge the story without seeing how it plays out, and you can't judge the music because you haven't heard all of it. :thumbsup:
Plus, you may have died because you are unfamiliar with the game, as playing you'll probably get much better. :P
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#64 Nights of Light

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 09:07 PM

Pretty decent review, and I agree with most of the points that were made throughout. One of the better (best?) GameMaker games out there. I've found myself playing many hours on this game and expect to play many more in the future. ;)

Edited by Nights of Light, 28 August 2011 - 09:10 PM.

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#65 mcoot

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 09:35 PM

@pwnagemage, I suggest completing the game before fully forming your opinion.

When I first played Iji I put it down after the 3rd sector, about where you did. That would have been soon after release, at version 1.2.

About a year later I kept hearing about the hype, and I played it through and loved it. Then I read the Tvtropes page and realised that it had multiple pathways and I loved it even more.

I have also just realised how hard it is to get Android's autocorrect to recognise 'Iji' as a word
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#66 Saijee

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 09:49 PM

@ C swift. As much as your opinions seem similar to mine, I have to say you sound like a troll.

This game didn't do it for me, I actually made a review of it on youtube, gave it a "fair."

It is by no means a "bad game" however it is also not a very good game.

I'm too lazy to quote right now, but whoever was arguing with C swift about how "the controls aren't bad, you just didn't like them." I have to disagree with. That would be like saying, the fact that you have to use the D-Pad in SM64DS instead of an analog stick is just part of the difficulty, so deal with it; Iji's controls are clunky and restrictive, it cannot be doubted that the controls could have been done better. Ideally the player should be able to simply think of the action they want the character to do, and without even thinking of pressing the buttons, the character does it. That's how it should feel, but because of the huge restrictions on the controls, players often can feel that that was the only reason they died.

The graphics were bad, even Remar said so in that youtube vid, so there's nothing to defend or offend in those terms.

I didn't like the story because I didn't like the character's.

It just didn't feel like the game was catering toward any specific audience, being a normal fan of shooter-platformers, I was hoping that the action would be more fluid for Iji, but it was about as solid as the background music. After watching his NMS vid, it feels like he made Iji for the sake of making a free game for people to play, as opposed to having it catered toward a specific audience.

edit-------

About level design, I think C swift is saying that there wasn't any particular piece of a room in the game that you could use a reference point to determine were in the world you were. I get a similar feeling, there is a certain sameness to every fraction of each map. I think it is fair to say that this is again because of the highly restrictive controls.

Edited by Saijee, 28 August 2011 - 09:54 PM.

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#67 makerofthegames

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 09:54 PM

Great, actual points being brought up. I applaud you, Saijee. I don't agree with you - - - obviously I like the game a lot more than you, but I have no issue with your post. :tongue:
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#68 Saijee

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 10:05 PM

It's hard to judge if this game would be considered successful for me, because contrary to popular belief there are quite a degree of people who didn't like the game.

If the game was catered toward a specific audience, then anyone could judge it's success by seeing of the targeted audience majority enjoyed the game. Any thing said by people who were not part of the target audience doesn't really matter. That's like someone who playes FPS's bashing Mario for not having a gun to shoot the turtles with. However anyone who is a solid FPSer is allowed more legitimate judgement toward any game targeted to FPS gamers (ex. one-who-enjoyed-Halo's opinion about COD means more than someone who only plays retro games judging COD).

If Iji was catered toward run-and-gun audience, then that would give opinions like mine (and even C swift...) more value than what some people allow. You simply cannot just say "I like it, he likes it, they like it, so because you don't like it and are out of the loop, your opinion doesn't matter." Needless to say that works both ways.

Edited by Saijee, 29 August 2011 - 02:31 AM.

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#69 makerofthegames

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 11:18 PM

Good points, it also won the king of the cagematch. So I suppose the majority of cagematch-voting GMCers around the time of the cagematch like Iji.

Well, it found its niche. :3
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#70 NinjaCatStudios

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 11:19 PM

If you don't like this game, I respect that opinion.
I, for one, loved this game.
It is one of the games that got me into indie gaming.
You may say it is bad in your opinion, but if you say it is a bad game please don't rub it in our faces.
If it truly is a bad game, then why is it one of the most popular Gamemaker games ever made?

(I'm not talking to you Saijee, you presented your opinion well and not trollfully)
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#71 mcoot

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 06:55 AM

I'm too lazy to quote right now, but whoever was arguing with C swift about how "the controls aren't bad, you just didn't like them." I have to disagree with.


I found the controls fairly intuitive: Arrow keys and Z/X/C is pretty standard.

The graphics were bad, even Remar said so in that youtube vid, so there's nothing to defend or offend in those terms.


I found the graphics okay. I don't doubt they would have been better in higher detail (talking of, given that the game's open source now, is there any reason someone couldn't redo the graphics, adding extra detail and so forth?).

If Iji was catered toward run-and-gun audience, then that would give opinions like mine (and even C swift...) more value than what some people allow. You simply cannot just say "I like it, he likes it, they like it, so because you don't like it and are out of the loop, your opinion doesn't matter." Needless to say that works both ways.


It's perfectly fine that you don't like it. Looking through, for instance, the Bytejacker Free Indie of the Year 2008's comments section, there are some people who didn't like Iji. Very much in the minority, but still there.

That's fine. What isn't fine is commodore swift's idea that everyone should not like the game. See:

I could go on all day about the faults of Iji but they're self-evident to people who have a thinking mind.


Then you have people like the OP who give the game 10/10 in every category and just blatantly ignore the game's many faults. Personally I don't even know why zarley11 is even giving reviews when he is clearly not qualified to do so.


The comparison might seem unfair, since Iji is basically an unoriginal and poorly designed game whereas Super Metroid is the pinnacle of game design.


I don't think anyone (reasonable) has a problem with your point of view.
It's the sort of arrogant 'my view is objective fact' stance that commodore swift takes that causes heated argument.

Edited by mcoot, 29 August 2011 - 06:56 AM.

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#72 Saijee

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 02:49 PM

It's somewhat difficult to come up with a reply to your above comment as it doesn't seem to be an actual argument as much as more talk about C Swift, but for you first comment:

That's not all there is to the controls, that's just the input. When we complain about the controls it's because they feel clunky and irresponcive due to being highly restrictive. Overall it just feels like "Iji is not listening to you, and not doing what you want her to do." And just seems that the game could have played a lot smoother if she was more responsive.
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#73 storkEXEC

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 04:49 PM

My objective review of Iji after playing one level (I beat the game already.)

The controls add "artificial difficulty." The controls aren't so much hard to use as they are mind bendingly irritating. Apparently the only reason you can't shoot in the air is because Iji says the gun is to "heavy" to carry, yet she can bust open metal doors with her legs...you do the math. Much of the gameplay is built around the fact that you can't jump and shoot, which is ridiculous. The gameplay is more of a turn-based rpg than a shooter, hide behind crates and if there are no crates "man up" and hope your attacks are better than the enemies. Even worse there are these microscopic bug things that you rarely see until they already hurt you...I guess that's supposed to be realistic but it's just annoying...anyway its mind-numbing that you can't shoot at them because iji is too dumb to shoot and crouch at the same time. Super Metroid took a while for me to get the controls, id rather try shoving a cucumber up my butt than try to wall bounce up the ekans and electrocoons shaft and space jumping was even worse, so I still think Iji is easier to get the hang of, but the problem is there's "nothing" to get the hang of.

Also, the amount of terminals are ridiculous...Metroid Prime had a lot of them but still...Metroid's were either there for comedic effect, to immerse the player or just to inform the player what something was. This is just like...every single one seems the same and there's no point in reading them (although there are a lot of funny ones.)

The graphics are simple but good, I'm a fan of mspaint though so not everyone shares my optimism. You can tell they were animated with Blender if you look closely.

The plot was really good, I won't spoil it but there's a part where you don't even know to trust your own brother...won't tell you if he is good or bad you'll have to play to find out ;) But yeah the story is really good

I really like the music I don't know why noone else does.

Overall great game if you take the time to read everything a great story and bosses will keep you entertained but a sequel should have more realistic gameplay and perhaps double jumps.

Edited by storkEXEC, 29 August 2011 - 05:01 PM.

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#74 slam drago

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 04:53 PM

My objective review of Iji
*snip*

So your saying your opinion trumps all?
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#75 storkEXEC

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 04:56 PM


My objective review of Iji
*snip*

So your saying your opinion trumps all?


omgosh im saying im trying to make my review as objective as possible :rolleyes:
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#76 makerofthegames

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 05:55 PM

Even worse there are these microscopic bug things that you rarely see until they already hurt you...I guess that's supposed to be realistic but it's just annoying...anyway its mind-numbing that you can't shoot at them because iji is too dumb to shoot and crouch at the same time.

If you payed attention during the game you may remember that blips are invincible. This isn't a "ooh I can't hit them with my shotgun" kinda thing, you can easily hit them - Nuke - Spread Rockets - Splinters etc, they're just not vulnerable.

Also:

more realistic gameplay and perhaps double jumps.

In the same sentence. Amazing.

Edited by makerofthegames, 29 August 2011 - 05:56 PM.

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#77 storkEXEC

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 05:58 PM

Also:

more realistic gameplay and perhaps double jumps.

In the same sentence. Amazing.


http://tvtropes.org/...Main/RuleOfCool
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#78 slam drago

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 08:10 PM

My objective review of Iji*snip*

So your saying your opinion trumps all?

omgosh im saying im trying to make my review as objective as possible *stupid smiley that everybody hates but still uses to make him feel good*


What do you mean?

Edited by slam drago, 29 August 2011 - 08:12 PM.

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#79 Saijee

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 12:15 AM

He means as opposed to the other one he did, I think.
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#80 commodore swift

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 04:06 AM

That's fine. What isn't fine is commodore swift's idea that everyone should not like the game. See:

No, that's not what I said at all. If you think I said that then please find a quotation of me doing so. All three quotes you provided were statements made by myself about very obvious faults of Iji, and the reason I'm frustrated is because die-hard lovers of Iji refuse to recognize them. For example, after I listed about a dozen very major faults in Iji, you dismissed them as "part of the engine" or something like that, which of course just means the engine is faulty.

Moving on. If any of you actually saw makerofthegames' posts before they got removed, you wouldn't be calling me a troll. The guy was flat-out calling me an "idiot" and "stupid", and if I seem trollish in any way then he's the one who incited that. A welcome addition to anyone's ignore list at any rate, and if people really think my headstrong statement of opinion is "trollish" then I can lighten up (and I will for this post). However, when I say that Iji has objective faults, I mean it. One way to measure an objective fault is simply to pit a game against other games, which I did in my comparison to S. Metroid. Examining both Iji's and S. Metroid's levels, the latter is clearly superior in terms of design and variation - and yes, there are objective, mathematical means of measuring variation. Does that make Iji a bad game? Well that is subjective, but perhaps I didn't make it clear that that is my opinion. It should be obvious, at any rate, but I guess some people don't read between the lines. That's especially the problem with people like mcoot who argue with the cogency of a child rather than an adult, in effect muddling the issue with their confusion. Speaking of opinions, it's actually been found in studies that people tend to like what they're exposed to most, regardless of quality. For example, if people listen to nothing but mp3's then people will prefer that format, despite .flac and .wav being objectively higher quality. So that might explain why, in an age of flash games and soulless FPS games, people might like a game like Iji. Let's face it, most Iji fanatics have probably not played Super Metroid on a real console, unfortunately. To conclude, my problem is with blind devotion to Iji, and I have no problem with people enjoying the game. An example of blind devotion is zarley11, the original review writer of this topic, who gave Iji almost perfect scores across the board. It's okay that he likes the game, but it's not okay that he gave such a lopsided review when Iji has so many obvious shortcomings (the fact that he knows nothing about game design is why I believe he's unqualified to be reviewing. It wasn't a personal attack as much as a necessary discreditation, like how you would want to discredit a surgeon who practices without having gone to medical school).

As for why I haven't played the entire game, well it's just that there are plenty of other games out there that can capture my attention within the first moments of playing them. Iji failed to do so, in fact I've tried 2 or 3 times to play past the second stage but it is simply too mindless and repetitive for my tastes. So there is no point in playing it when other games offer so much more in the way of cool design and interesting mechanics (also I heavily dislike Iji's soundtrack). The story is also not that interesting to me, I've read most of the logs and I thought they were pretty lame. I'm probably done with this topic for now, mcoot's style of argumentation is too annoying and too reliant on fallacious reasoning. I also have a feeling that I'm getting reported en masse by rabid Iji devotees (unusually large mod presence). PM if you have any questions.
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#81 Saijee

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 05:29 AM

C Swift, I know what you mean, that is the reason why I made a negative review over the game was because every video review of the game on youtube sloppyly done, not backing up any points; basically saying the game was "just awesome" and everything was just "so awesome".

See my Review here:
http://www.youtube.c...u/2/Pwon1xBrjCk

However, believe it or not, you troll. It's not what you say, it's the way you articulate it. Let me try to give an example of a non-troll articulation of a point:

Would I consider Iji to be an overrated game? Having played through the game and not taking away any enjoyable experience, yes, for me, I simply do not understand what people enjoyed about the game so much, even though I did go in playing the game looking forward to some action. While some people consider this word a taboo, as if the one using it is trying to say that their opinion means more than the fans. But that is not what it means, for example, many musical artists are over rated; all their fans are actually not at all interested in the music, but would simply be a fan of that artist just because "they are cute." (While this is more prominent in Japan and Korea, it is also present in the western world.) However it is much easier to exemplify just how overrated it can be using oriental music. Oreintal singers are not even "allowed" to have girl/boy friends, and if they do, suddenly they lose about 80% of their fanbase. As it turns out the fans only liked the idea of them, and wasn't an actual fan of the music to begin with.

While the losing fan base thing would not apply well to indie games, I would feel that Iji is overrated because it seems that the kind of people who do not point out the games flaws in reviews simply praise the game on the standard of being a Game Maker Game, which, needless to say, is quite low.

Yes on the basis of Game Maker Games, Iji rides the high waves, it's had a lot of time put into it so it is one of the longest GM games. And therefore considered detailed and apparently "totally awesome" too.

I honestly have more fun playing something like Touhou, can't beat it, don't even know how to play SHMUPS. But in said game if you die, it was never the characters fault, because your character would always do whatever the button was supposed to do in any situation.

I will never understand why people like Iji. But the fact of the matter is people do, and nothing that you say, or even I say, will change those peoples views on the game. It just seems like your not even criticizing the game anymore, you just want people to believe you. You seem to post things as if your right and everyone else is wrong. There's nothing wrong with a simply discussion, but your just trying to drill into everyone's head that this was a cruddy game, rather than simply saying that you didn't like the game.

Edited by Saijee, 30 August 2011 - 05:54 AM.

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#82 mcoot

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 09:57 AM

commodore swift: read your post and Saijee's. Compare and contrast.



No, that's not what I said at all. If you think I said that then please find a quotation of me doing so. All three quotes you provided were statements made by myself about very obvious faults of Iji, and the reason I'm frustrated is because die-hard lovers of Iji refuse to recognize them.


Oh, I don't know, but calling zarley11 'clearly unqualified to review' or saying that the game's 'serious flaws' are 'obvious to thinking people' sounds a bit like you think your opinion is in some way 'right'.

For example, after I listed about a dozen very major faults in Iji, you dismissed them as "part of the engine" or something like that, which of course just means the engine is faulty.


And that's the main part of the disagreement. For the points that were factually accurate (i.e. not 'secret areas by kicking level 15 doors'), I for one don't really think they were necessarily faults. Things like shooting and jumping or double-jumping completely change the game.

Use double jumping as an example: you can't just add it in there, because the level designs wouldn't work, since they assume you can jump a certain height. Could the game have been written from the beginning with double-jumping? Yes. Would that have made it a better game? Not necessarily.

If I was building a platform engine, I probably would add the ability to shoot while jumping - most platformers do have that. But does the lack of it harm the gameplay? No, because the levels are designed around that inability.

Moving on. If any of you actually saw makerofthegames' posts before they got removed, you wouldn't be calling me a troll. The guy was flat-out calling me an "idiot" and "stupid", and if I seem trollish in any way then he's the one who incited that. A welcome addition to anyone's ignore list at any rate, and if people really think my headstrong statement of opinion is "trollish" then I can lighten up (and I will for this post).



I did see said post. I don't think he was trolling - he was pointing out your *facepalm*-worthy screenshot trying to prove that secret areas were accessed by kicking down level 15 doors.

However, when I say that Iji has objective faults, I mean it. One way to measure an objective fault is simply to pit a game against other games, which I did in my comparison to S. Metroid. Examining both Iji's and S. Metroid's levels, the latter is clearly superior in terms of design and variation - and yes, there are objective, mathematical means of measuring variation.


Wrong. Adding a comparison does not automatically make a judgement objective. You say Super Metroid is better in 'design' and 'variation'. Variation in a mathematical sense means very little to level design. Iji's levels do vary - not that you've played them, of course. And what's your objective criteria for design?

Does that make Iji a bad game? Well that is subjective, but perhaps I didn't make it clear that that is my opinion. It should be obvious, at any rate, but I guess some people don't read between the lines. That's especially the problem with people like mcoot who argue with the cogency of a child rather than an adult, in effect muddling the issue with their confusion.


Oooh.... he said I was arguing like a child. Very mature. You have a strange definition of confusion - at least my knowledge of Iji is factually accurate.

Speaking of opinions, it's actually been found in studies that people tend to like what they're exposed to most, regardless of quality. For example, if people listen to nothing but mp3's then people will prefer that format, despite .flac and .wav being objectively higher quality. So that might explain why, in an age of flash games and soulless FPS games, people might like a game like Iji. Let's face it, most Iji fanatics have probably not played Super Metroid on a real console, unfortunately.


Your analogy fails. Do people prefer mp3 format to loss-less formats in spite of loss-less audio's quality advantage, or do they prefer mp3 to loss-less because it has quality that is generally indistinguishable from loss-less except in fringe situations, with a much smaller file size.

Let's face it, most people on the GMC probably haven't played Super Metroid on a real console. And it is a pity - nobody's arguing that Super Metroid isn't a great game. But what is it that makes you think that people who have played Super Metroid will see the error of their ways and renounce their like of Iji?

To conclude, my problem is with blind devotion to Iji, and I have no problem with people enjoying the game. An example of blind devotion is zarley11, the original review writer of this topic, who gave Iji almost perfect scores across the board. It's okay that he likes the game, but it's not okay that he gave such a lopsided review when Iji has so many obvious shortcomings (the fact that he knows nothing about game design is why I believe he's unqualified to be reviewing. It wasn't a personal attack as much as a necessary discreditation, like how you would want to discredit a surgeon who practices without having gone to medical school).


Let me say it again for emphasis: the 'flaws' you see are not objective fact. No, it isn't like a surgeon not going to medical school: it was a subjective judgement to begin with. Most reviewers made the judgement that Iji was a good game, and they recommend it. And many people will agree with that recommendation. Some won't, that's a fact of life: different people like different things. That doesn't make reviewers 'wrong'. The only way for a reviewer to be objectively wrong would be for them to have factual inaccuracies in their review.

As for why I haven't played the entire game, well it's just that there are plenty of other games out there that can capture my attention within the first moments of playing them.


So go and play them and stop whining about how horrible it is that other people like Iji.


Anyway, on a more relevant note:

That's not all there is to the controls, that's just the input. When we complain about the controls it's because they feel clunky and irresponcive due to being highly restrictive. Overall it just feels like "Iji is not listening to you, and not doing what you want her to do." And just seems that the game could have played a lot smoother if she was more responsive.


That's the thing. I didn't find that to be the case. I suppose the engine's quirks took a bit of getting used to (you do tend to notice things like the lack of jump-and-shoot at first), but for me after a couple of sectors the controls felt natural.

Also, the amount of terminals are ridiculous...Metroid Prime had a lot of them but still...Metroid's were either there for comedic effect, to immerse the player or just to inform the player what something was. This is just like...every single one seems the same and there's no point in reading them (although there are a lot of funny ones.)


I liked the terminals and logbooks. Admittedly, in earlier versions it was problematic because enemies could attack you while you read, but they seem to have been moved in later versions to prevent that, and I haven't seen any instances of that in 1.6. But then, it's a matter of personal taste: I like to have backstory. To me it makes the game more immersive. Of course, for some, textboxes break the immersion, but I never found that a problem.
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#83 storkEXEC

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 02:07 PM

lots of text

I have to agree, compared to metroid iji's levels are kind of bland. iji's is the same environment over and over again. it fits the story but that is an example of how a story can interfere with the game.

and you are being a bit rude though.

"I'm not interested in reading what you have to say anymore mcoot, your posts just annoy me at this point. I thought I made that clear. I'd prefer to argue with another Iji lover who understands what he is typing"


Edited by storkEXEC, 30 August 2011 - 02:13 PM.

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#84 commodore swift

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 07:29 AM


lots of text

I have to agree, compared to metroid iji's levels are kind of bland. iji's is the same environment over and over again. it fits the story but that is an example of how a story can interfere with the game.

The problem is obviously not the story, since everyone just seems to love that part of the game. The problem is that the story is more important than the gameplay. Stories are fine as long as gameplay comes first. In iji's case the developer decided to make an engine that limited the protagonist's fighting options for no real reason. By making her move so mechanically it basically dumbed down the level design therefore the game. It's not like Cave Story where you could fly around and do cool things like shoot while you're in the air, and the gameplay in CS is more than just "duck every few seconds while fighting." (I personally don't like Cave Story because there's way too much text, but at least it was excusable because the gameplay was enjoyable and interesting).

Also, I was curious and looked up Iji's play statistics. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it had only been played about 30,000 times, whereas this game has been played almost 10x as much! Proof that fun, simple gameplay is valued more by gamers than bland level design and grandiose stories :thumbsup:

Edited by commodore swift, 31 August 2011 - 07:30 AM.

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#85 mcoot

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 11:00 AM

The problem is that the story is more important than the gameplay.


I agree, but I don't think that it is a problem - for me anyway, the story is more important than the gameplay. The story relies on the gameplay - if it glitched out all the time the immersion would break. But Iji is primarily story-based. If you don't care about story, then you're going to miss the experience, and Iji probably isn't the game for you.

(I personally don't like Cave Story because there's way too much text, but at least it was excusable because the gameplay was enjoyable and interesting)


Again, interesting, because the story was probably the part I enjoyed most about Cave Story. That's not to say I didn't enjoy CS's gameplay. But I, for one, don't mind text boxes and story, so long as its presented well (i.e. I'm probably going to have trouble following your story, even if it's great, if you show it all through Game Maker's default message 'Grey Box of Doom' system).

Also, I was curious and looked up Iji's play statistics. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it had only been played about 30,000 times, whereas this game has been played almost 10x as much! Proof that fun, simple gameplay is valued more by gamers than bland level design and grandiose stories public/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif


Except of course that that only counts plays on Yoyogames. Pretty much every review site and article on Iji link to Daniel Remar's site. That said, Yoyo plays probably do make up a fair portion of Iji's total plays.
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#86 Saijee

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 02:51 PM

Now hold on just a moment.

If the story was the driving force behind the reason to play Iji, then why replay it?

For me I played through it once, aware that there was an alternative ending, and having a pretty good idea of what that alternative ending was because of all the things people post about it. You can't play Iji the first time without knowing that "you can save Dan."

I don't replay RPG's just because they have a hard to predict story, because after the first run, you know how the story goes. I replay games for the gameplay.
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#87 makerofthegames

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 02:33 AM



lots of text

I have to agree, compared to metroid iji's levels are kind of bland. iji's is the same environment over and over again. it fits the story but that is an example of how a story can interfere with the game.

The problem is obviously not the story, since everyone just seems to love that part of the game. The problem is that the story is more important than the gameplay.

Now hold on just a moment.

If the story was the driving force behind the reason to play Iji, then why replay it?

Here's the thing. I agree the story is better than the gameplay, but I don't agree on how bad the gameplay is. Personally, I don't really see it. I love the gameplay.

I know you don't agree about that so I'll use this metaphor:
You have a game with good gameplay, you would replay it. Then you have this story that's better than the gameplay, would you suddenly not replay it?
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#88 commodore swift

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:34 AM

C swift, everything you say is an opinion

Not really. When I say that gamers prefer gameplay over story, that is a fact. Contrary to popular opinion, story-based games never sell well. The only ones that sell moderately well rely on brand name, i.e. the later Final Fantasy and the later Legend of Zelda. No one would have bought Twilight Princess if it had been the first in the zelda series - look at Okami, a game very similar to TP that completely bombed. Twilight Princess is a bad game in the same way that Iji is bad, it worsens the gameplay for the sake of the story (Link turning into a wolf? collecting tears for hours on end? awkwardly fighting on horseback?) TP got outsold by Brawl, for crying out loud! and its a zelda game! Stories simply don't appeal to as many people as fun gameplay does. Fact. :thumbsup:
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#89 Saijee

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:17 PM

You have a game with good gameplay, you would replay it. Then you have this story that's better than the gameplay, would you suddenly not replay it?


Even if the gameplay was nice, if the only reason I beat the game in the first place was because it had a good driving story, then I don't usually replay it. And If I do pick the game up again, its usually not before the next three years, to the point where I don't remember exactly how the story went. The only exception to this was the Mario RPGs. Beat Paper Mario games multiple times, I beat M&L1 3 times in a row when I first got it. But this kinda game doesn't even fall under said category because they aren't really story driven, it's all about the action command based battles having to do a lot with tech skill.
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#90 Mnementh

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 05:13 AM

I'm glad that you guys had this argument, because I would never have played the game otherwise. Iji is the only indie game that I've every played through -albeit on normal difficulty - and I enjoyed it. Yeah, the controls were awkward, but I really appreciated the story, even if I didn't think it was all that interesting. To clarify: unlike Metroid Prime, Iji uses the logs to cause the player to emphasize with the supposed enemy, but fails to make the aliens believable. The aliens (what were they called?) felt like office workers posting notes on a cork-board. Ultimately, the player is able to emphasize with the aliens, but doesn't really care. Contrast this with works of science fiction like Ursula Le Guin's Left Hand of Darkness, which creates an alien species which is just barely close enough to emphasize with, but far enough to be intriguing, and to create a sense of amazement when a connection finally develops between the human protagonist and one of the aliens.

The review of the story is disappointing, to say the least. Rather than a description of the logs, and the moral dilemma that they present, we're given a run-through of the introduction, and a few rather cliche attempts to characterize the game. I also take issue with the beginning of the paragraph, which says that the flaws in the story are "easily dismissed and actually easily to not even notice". That's a bit like saying, "Don't think about elephants," in that once you've mentioned the flaws, you can't just will them away.

One element of the game that I enjoyed very much was the music. The soundtrack was quite good, and it had the right feel for an continuous game like Iji: it drew me onward and made me want to keep moving. I think that the music, as much as the story, moved this game forward.

I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts about the story, and whether or not it was interesting enough to justify game-play that was, for the most part, merely adequate. That being said, there are certain people who I am not interested in hearing from: you've already been heard enough. :dry: Don't post in this topic again; you've shown that you're not capable of maintaining the discussion, even after you were warned.
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#91 chance

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 11:21 AM

The review of the story is disappointing, to say the least. Rather than a description of the logs, and the moral dilemma that they present, we're given a run-through of the introduction...

I suppose that's somewhat true. Zarley (the reviewer) could've said more about how the logs are used -- given their importance.


I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts about the story, and whether or not it was interesting enough to justify game-play that was, for the most part, merely adequate.

May not matter... but maybe the discussion here could focus on the review. Detailed discussions about the game itself, might be better in Ultimortal's topic. Just out of fairness to the author.

Zarley should've provided a link to Ultimortal's GMC Creation topic in his review. Most reviewers do that.

Edited by chance, 02 September 2011 - 11:23 AM.

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#92 mcoot

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 09:17 PM

The review of the story is disappointing, to say the least. Rather than a description of the logs, and the moral dilemma that they present, we're given a run-through of the introduction, and a few rather cliche attempts to characterize the game. I also take issue with the beginning of the paragraph, which says that the flaws in the story are "easily dismissed and actually easily to not even notice". That's a bit like saying, "Don't think about elephants," in that once you've mentioned the flaws, you can't just will them away.


I'm not sure it's even necessary to mention the specific aspects of the story in the review. Obviously he needs to mention whether he liked it or not, and probably give some generic idea as to what it's like. But maybe it doesn't need to go into specifics.
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#93 MasterOfKings

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 10:48 AM

When I say that gamers prefer gameplay over story, that is a fact.

I, personally, would much prefer a game where I worked towards something over mindlessly doing something.

Most games have stories, and they tend to integrate it into the game. Having a game where random monsters pop out of no where and try to kill you while you randomly hold a gun and kill them; would be, and pardon my french, absolute sh*t. Some games pull it off, like Bloons TD, but that's because they're simple fun games; but they do have a target.

Just for the record, why are you, commodore swift, going on the level design being "machine-like". I wasn't aware that many military bases were organic.

Anyhow... In relation to everything else, I felt...

Controls: I thought they were a bit funny, Z,X,C just seemed strange to me; but I don't play many platformers, so it's possible that I'm just too used to FPS's WASD alongside Q and E. So, no big deal.

Weapons: The weapons weren't terribly "amazing", that and as Iji as some sort of "super weapon", it throws the aesthetic feel of each one out the window. Aka, there's no visual difference between Iji holding a Machinegun and a shotgun.

Strategy: Not terribly much thought went into this. Most of the time it's just a case of duck at the right time, jump at the right time, shoot at the right time. I will admit, the different AI did make the game enjoyable mind you. As it meant my actions weren't too repetitive.

Story: Rather strange story. Tasen came, blew everything up, then set up shop. Well, no they didn't. They just went into the ruins of what the humans had. How the hell did the military installation survive?
Plus, isn't the attack seem rather similar to that of glassing in the Halo universe?
Honestly, I started to hate the logs. They popped up everywhere and slowly but surely became a bore to read. I think the story should of been implemented on a more audio/cinematic sense. I mean, say Iji sneaks into a room full of Tasen and they go on about the.... the other guys.. I can't remember their name. About 10 minutes of reading would turn into 30 seconds of listening.

I will admit, the story is quite good. A bit patchy, but still good. I mean, you'd think the Tasen would of settled Earth a bit more after 5 months.

Restrictions: The jumping and shooting, along with ducking and shooting was a real problem for me. Iji's a cyborg, I would of thought she'd be capable of shooting from both a less stable stance AS WELL as a MORE stable stance. The not being able to move on a elevator was a bit strange too, but I guess you wouldn't need to move; so no biggie.

Upgrading: It gave the player something to think about when upgrading. So, they can't just increase every stat easily, they need to be more careful. I liked that about it.

Level design: Although, there's been complaints about it being machine-like and not very organic; it was set in a military base, so it's understandable.
BUT, I think the game would of definitely been much better if gameplay left the base and took Iji onto open ground. For example, through a Tasen camp.

Graphics: Character graphics sucked; but everything else was quite nice.

Soundtrack: I liked the music. 'nuff said.

Replayability: Not really. Once you know the story, there's not much to go on for.

Overall, Iji is an alright game. It does have its downs, but what game doesn't?
I'm not overly impressed by it, but that's just me. I can definitely see where the strengths of this game are.

-MoK

Edited by MasterOfKings, 22 September 2011 - 10:52 AM.

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#94 theALCH3MIST

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 04:29 PM

Picked up Iji recently - I'm amazed at how captivating it is. It's not just the best GM platformer - it's one of the best 2D indie platformers to date. I rather liked the logs; the similarities to Halo were good. The hacking was my only gripe.

Edited by theALCH3MIST, 01 January 2012 - 04:44 PM.

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#95 fawful

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 01:13 PM

It's impressive the amount of effort that's been put into Iji, but it gets far more praise than it's due. Ultimately, the defining factor of a game is how it plays, and from what I can remember that was lackluster at best.

It also does a good job disengaging the player's desire to play it right at the last moment. Hey, here's a good idea: lets make the final boss a billion times more difficult than the rest of the game so you have to spend a lot of time learning it's attack patterns and dying a lot, and then (here's the good part) make it so that you have to beat an entire level and another boss before you face him, every time you load the game or lose all your lives.

I would have beat the game if it wasn't for that stroke of design genius.


I am being harsh to Ultimortal saying it like that but this is directed at these insane, worshipful, fanboys. It is a good game but it's severely lacking in important places. But I'm sure he knows all about that better than anyone else, having made it and everything.


btw Hero Core is one million times better than Iji

Edited by fawful, 06 January 2012 - 01:17 PM.

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#96 speedchuck

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 04:24 PM

You know it doesn't make you restart the whole level, right? If you make it to the final boss, you get to stay there until you beat it, assuming you do not rage quit. I beat the boss my second try... in the first difficulty of course. Ultimortal mode was frustrating, but it was supposed to be... Ah, well. You think what you want, but I love this game, despite the simplistic gameplay.
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#97 makerofthegames

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 07:28 PM

every time you load the game or lose all your lives.

The load thing isn't really a problem for me because the first time I beat the game it was in one sitting. The lose all your lives thing also wasn't a problem because the game does not have lives. I have no idea what you're even thinking about there. :huh:
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#98 orange08

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 08:38 PM

every time you load the game or lose all your lives.

The load thing isn't really a problem for me because the first time I beat the game it was in one sitting. The lose all your lives thing also wasn't a problem because the game does not have lives. I have no idea what you're even thinking about there. :huh:

I think he meant, that if you die in a sector before you reach the boss, you have to restart the whole sector. However, there are restoration points in some sectors that will revive you even if you lose all your HP(they only work once, though).
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#99 Desert Dog

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 09:20 PM

Restrictions: The jumping and shooting, along with ducking and shooting was a real problem for me. Iji's a cyborg, I would of thought she'd be capable of shooting from both a less stable stance AS WELL as a MORE stable stance. The not being able to move on a elevator was a bit strange too, but I guess you wouldn't need to move; so no biggie.

Very à la Another World, Flashback. I don't really remember any other games (off hand) where you couldn't move when on a moving elevator. Iji reeks style-wise of these old games (even though, off-hand, there is very little resemblance.)

Incidentally, it may be worthwhile checking out Flashback. It 'solves' some of the 'problems' Iji has. You can 'duck' and then shoot from a ducking position. You can't shoot while jumping, but if you saw his jump style you couldn't complain (his jumping is very realistic, size/distance wise), and you can do a lot of cool 'realistic' stuff, like for instance, if you try moving while your crouching with your gun, you'll go into a roll, which is very cool in gun-battles. And you can do a normal jump, running jump, grab onto ledges, pull up, etc etc. In that respect it's very realistic. However, this just makes the game plain tough to play! I died many, many times simply from pressing the wrong combination of buttons. It was a great game, but very tough to learn. I

Iji 'solves' many of these problems, by doing things simpler, but still keeps a feel of 'realism'(of sorts).

Edited by Desert Dog, 07 January 2012 - 09:21 PM.

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#100 commodore swift

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 07:52 AM

Way to completely miss the point. Iji's restrictive engine leads to its boring and repetitive gameplay, which has nothing to do with realism.
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