9 replies to this topic

[gmXpert2000]

I recently had some really interesting insights for a great story I wanted to write for a video game. Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor resources to write an entire "epic" game (and by that I mean in the style of Iji as opposed to the style of some puzzle or arcade game), and especially with that type of game dominating consoles, the "market" for computer games seems to be turning further and further away from the epic and closer towards the casual game.

I have written a semi-successful freeware casual game or two, but the thing I really enjoy is writing (or rather, designing) games of the "epic" genre. I investigated why this was (a little introspection...hehe) and discovered it was mainly because of the story, the characters, etc.. I love enveloping stories, whether they be tv, movies, or video games, but especially in video games, perhaps because of the player involvement.

And I love writing characters and stories, too, even though I don't have the capacity to actually write an entire "epic" game to put them in. I seriously respect Ultimortal for spending 3500 hours (I think that's what I read?) on Iji, and it was an amazing game (as I'm sure many of you agree) but I just can't afford to do that, especially if there's really no market for it. I know, I'm talking about designing for fun and marketing at the same time...but they can go hand in hand, right? ...RIGHT?

Anyway, my next thought, was that since I can write pretty good casual games (or so I'm told), maybe I'd be able to meld casual games (that is, games with a simple concept that the player can pick up and put down at their leisure) with an immersive story. And I'm not talking immersive story in regards to an interesting premise, for example, Mr. Chubbigans' light smashing game that had the premise of being the special ancient winter solstice show. I mean an actual deep story the player can get into.

Theoretically it's not easy, because most casual games lack an actual character the player can identify with (which is usually one of the ways a story holds the player's attention). You could try for example having a puzzle game where there's a picture of the main character on screen while the player solves the puzzles, and once you complete a puzzle you see more of a story, but again, that lacks player identification since theoretically the player wouldn't be playing as the character.

I think rinkuhero has managed to do that to an extent. I haven't actually played Immortal Defense (sorry Rinku =p) but I hear it has an amazing story, and one might be able to argue that a tower defense game is somewhat casual. So, any ideas, concepts, insights, etc.? Or do you think the two (deep, immersive story, and casual gameplay) are mutually exclusive?

Also, do you know of any examples of games which you think successfully combine the two?

Edited by gmXpert2000, 30 April 2010 - 05:50 AM.

[Desert Dog]

Or do you think the two (deep, immersive story, and casual gameplay) are mutually exclusive?

Certainly not.

When I was trying (unsuccessfully) to get my game published on a casual portal, one of the sites got back to me, and one of the things they specifically mentioned is that they liked, or rather, their audience liked games with

" engaging storyline to go with their game. Our customers are typically interested in more than just a straight game when they come to our site. Games that have done well also include a fun or dramatic storyline to go with the games to give the customer one more reason to keep playing on. These titles will typically include a map that goes along with the story and gives the user a sense of progress as they work through various levels."

It's definitely something that both publishers, and gamers look for in their game.

Edited by Desert Dog, 30 April 2010 - 06:30 AM.

[Frostblade]

because most casual games lack an actual character the player can identify with

This is restrictive, yes, but it isn't necessarily a problem. From the top of my head, I can think of a few story mechanics that might compensate for it: using a silent protagonist, the player acting entirely in the role of protagonist, seeing the entire storyline from a transient 'fly-on-the-wall' perspective, and so on. A lot of novels and short stories don't use a viewpoint character, and they're none the worse for it.

Could we get some details on the story you'd like to write? I know you probably want this to be as generic a topic as possible, but having a specific case to study should add quite a lot of focus and meaning. It'd also help you, of course, but that's purely coincidental.

[All Our Fears]

To have an epic story you need epic characters, I do believe. Or at least epic scenario's. Titanic would not have been an epic film if it was about a middle aged couple who fall off a ship and swim onto an iceberg and live amongst the polar bears for the rest of their days, ultimately raising a son named Iku, who is more bear than man, some say. It would have been a great film, but a casual one.

[gmXpert2000]

When I was trying (unsuccessfully) to get my game published on a casual portal, one of the sites got back to me, and one of the things they specifically mentioned is that they liked, or rather, their audience liked games with

<snip>

That's actually very encouraging, that publishers actually mention it. One of the things I was considering was that people might not want a good story because it takes away from the pick up and play quality, but, I suppose it doesn't have to.

To have an epic story you need epic characters, I do believe. Or at least epic scenario's.

Another good insight. My issue though, is how to make epic characters or scenarios in a game that still has the casual "pick up/put down" feel.

Could we get some details on the story you'd like to write? I know you probably want this to be as generic a topic as possible, but having a specific case to study should add quite a lot of focus and meaning. It'd also help you, of course, but that's purely coincidental.

Sure.

It's not entirely worked out yet, but the basic premise is a post-apocalyptic world, ruled by an oppressive monarchy which forces the survivors to work under the premise of "rebuilding the world to the glory it once was." But one man named Ian (tentative name...and eventually played by you) at the end of the work day gets fed up with it all; feeling it's useless and throwing down his tools, he goes home angry. As Ian is sleeping, a dark shadow-based spirit enters his house, and enters his body. The shock of the possession wakes him.

When Ian is fully awake, the spirit speaks to him: "Do not be alarmed. You are weary of working for the Monarchy, correct? You have reason to be, for four beliefs that will all be for nothing are well founded--the Monarchy wants nothing more than for the survivors to build them a better kingdom over which they will rule for the rest of eternity.

No means of revolution exists. If you continue doing nothing but working, there will be no hope for better circumstances. But I am an...altruistic...spirit that has entered your consciousness, and I will guide you to a better life."

The spirit's combination with Ian grants him various superhuman abilities, one of which was supposed to be the ability to move certain objects with his mind.

At this point the player doesn't know it, but the spirit is really the soul of a powerful but malevolent human-like creature who was killed purely out of bad luck during the apocalyptic event ten (?) years earlier. He guides Ian to some cave or something where a tool exists that can take him back in time, which he can't reach as a spirit and therefore needed a human host. I won't reveal what his real intentions are, because I don't want to give too much away, but essentially the first half or so of the game will be set in the post-apocalyptic world (opposed by the Monarchy's forces), and the second half in the pre-apocalyptic world (opposed by...the military? maybe? I dunno). Ian thinks the spirit is bringing him back in time so he can stop the apocalypse, but he's actually doing something else.

So yeah, that's the basis of the story. Hopefully that gives you an idea of the sort of story I'm looking at? Obviously there's going to have to be some changes, and I'm willing to do so. I'm just having trouble coming up with ideas as to how I could put something like this into a game with casual mechanics.

[Desert Dog]

That's actually very encouraging, that publishers actually mention it. One of the things I was considering was that people might not want a good story because it takes away from the pick up and play quality, but, I suppose it doesn't have to.

Almost all casual games these days have stories, if not largely story based.

Check out the top 100 BFG games:
http://www.bigfishga...-downloads.html

O.k, I don't expect you to download and try all of them, but you can tell at least by the titles&descriptions that they have at least 'some' story. In fact, I think you'd struggle to find one without one.

Also, I believe that it's a huge factor on why the Aveyond series, and all those 'old-school' RPG type games do so well. People love a good story, and those deliver them.

I'd definitely recommend you try out Rinku's ID. I don't even like TD games, but I enjoyed playing his one... great music, and really integrated the story well. The atmosphere created isn't something I've ever really experienced playing other games, but it was quite pleasant.

I'd also recommend checking out hpapillon's games. Although it has to be one of her oldest games, the first Cute Knight is darn enjoyable. Very story based, although in a different way. You kinda make the story yourself.. it's pretty cool.

Btw, how is your game going to play? Any specific genre..? I'm just being snoopy here.

Edited by Desert Dog, 30 April 2010 - 11:02 PM.

[gmXpert2000]

Btw, how is your game going to play? Any specific genre..? I'm just being snoopy here.

OMG Y R U BEING SO NOSY GO AWAYZ

Alright, because you asked so nicely I'll tell you

It was originally meant to be a platformer. I was toying with the idea of moving with the arrows and using the mouse to simulate some sort of psychic ability. For example, maybe there's a switch up high and you click on it to toggle it with Ian's telekinesis, or you can use Ian's TK to pick up objects and throw them at enemies. Kind of like Megaman Zero style mechanics mixed with a 2d version of Silver the Hedgehog's gameplay on Sonic 360.

[Yal]

Sigh. Trying to copy gameplay elements from the New Sonic Bros. games doesn't sound very promising for making good casual gameplay...

I'd say that good casual gameplay should be arcade-styled, full of action, and have a framerate of 60. Preferably taking and mixing elements from Wonder Boy, Kid Icarus, Cave Story and Castlevania, have items that looks valuable and/or tasty to collect, and have 2-player support. But that's just my personal taste, Newgrounds has tons of puzzle games (and puzzle platformers) and they are very popular as well. Anyway, pick the gameplay you like. If you have both intense action and calm, brain-breaking puzzles (that keeps you on the same spot for 20 minutes before you figure them out), and manage to link them together in a nice way so that you don't get the feeling that the puzzles slow the game down , you might end up with a very good game. The Zelda games might not be casual anymore, but they often have varied gameplay (even though I'd prefer more action and minibosses in them).

Hope this post is helpful, reading it gives me the opposite impression... And I got to go now or I'll be late.

[Frostblade]

It was originally meant to be a platformer. I was toying with the idea of moving with the arrows and using the mouse to simulate some sort of psychic ability. For example, maybe there's a switch up high and you click on it to toggle it with Ian's telekinesis, or you can use Ian's TK to pick up objects and throw them at enemies. Kind of like Megaman Zero style mechanics mixed with a 2d version of Silver the Hedgehog's gameplay on Sonic 360.

This gameplay doesn't really strike me as very "casual", nor as "unsuitable for a deep and complex story"; or at least, no more so than Cave Story, Iji, and so on. I kind of get the feeling you're imagining problems for yourself that don't exist: this gameplay concept lends itself well to a sequential story, it looks like it's simple enough for you to complete without superhuman effort, and it fits in well enough with the story you already have.

To be honest, when you said "casual game", I was kind of thinking of Tower Defence and Bejewelled.

[gmXpert2000]

EDIT: Sorry, weird forum bug caused this to post before I could respond to any of the posts. Editing now.
EDIT: Done

It was originally meant to be a platformer. I was toying with the idea of moving with the arrows and using the mouse to simulate some sort of psychic ability. For example, maybe there's a switch up high and you click on it to toggle it with Ian's telekinesis, or you can use Ian's TK to pick up objects and throw them at enemies. Kind of like Megaman Zero style mechanics mixed with a 2d version of Silver the Hedgehog's gameplay on Sonic 360.

This gameplay doesn't really strike me as very "casual", nor as "unsuitable for a deep and complex story"; or at least, no more so than Cave Story, Iji, and so on. I kind of get the feeling you're imagining problems for yourself that don't exist: this gameplay concept lends itself well to a sequential story, it looks like it's simple enough for you to complete without superhuman effort, and it fits in well enough with the story you already have.

To be honest, when you said "casual game", I was kind of thinking of Tower Defence and Bejewelled.

Thanks, but actually I said "it was originally meant to be..." those things. The type of casual game i was thinking of wasn't necessarily of the sort you mentioned, but I was actually planning on scrapping that gameplay idea, or at least greatly simplifying it, because the point was I wanted to make the game itself more casual as it seems that casual games are the ones that have the most success. I'm just trying to follow where the market goes. I dunno, maybe I'm just fooling myself here thinking that it's possible, but my main goal is to find a way to condense or fit the story into the shell of a (more) casual game. Trust me, if I thought I had the time, ability, and patience to write the game in it's total glory, I would--but I especially can't considering it seems that my ROI for the game would be too low. I'm not necessarily talking money, but if possible it would be nice.

I'd say that good casual gameplay should be arcade-styled, full of action, and have a framerate of 60. Preferably taking and mixing elements from Wonder Boy, Kid Icarus, Cave Story and Castlevania, have items that looks valuable and/or tasty to collect, and have 2-player support. But that's just my personal taste, Newgrounds has tons of puzzle games (and puzzle platformers) and they are very popular as well. Anyway, pick the gameplay you like. If you have both intense action and calm, brain-breaking puzzles (that keeps you on the same spot for 20 minutes before you figure them out), and manage to link them together in a nice way so that you don't get the feeling that the puzzles slow the game down , you might end up with a very good game. The Zelda games might not be casual anymore, but they often have varied gameplay (even though I'd prefer more action and minibosses in them).

Hope this post is helpful, reading it gives me the opposite impression... And I got to go now or I'll be late.

Actually it is quite helpful. Perhaps the telekenesis could be used to solve the puzzles. The biggest problem I foresaw with this is that a deep story like that wouldn't lend itself to a game with the casual feel; I was prepared to scrap the gameplay style or change it, as I mentioned above.

I wonder though if just speeding up the action and shortening the levels would do it. Maybe some contra styled quick pace gameplay; if it saved between levels, contra might have been considered *kind* of casual, I think. At least, more casual than what I have already. I also like desert dog's quote a little further above about adding in a map, perhaps with the shorter levels it might be able to give that pick up and play feel?

Edited by gmXpert2000, 03 May 2010 - 04:40 PM.