82 replies to this topic

[Frederick]

I think it's time we created a Game Maker errors sub forum in the community forum. This sub forum would only be for asking for help with Game Maker in-program errors, not softwrap problems.

Here's why I think it's a good idea... Look how many people have been asking the same questions over and over again using different words. If they were able to view an index of Game Maker errors, like in a sub forum, they might just be able to find the problem they were looking for without asking us a fifth time. At the moment, they're buried deep within 176 pages of topics.

All this would take is a little extra time from an admin or volunteer to go through the Community forum and move all of the Game Maker error topics to the Game Maker errors sub forum.

Just an idea. What do you think of this? O_O

What this would look like:

Edited by Frederick, 18 April 2010 - 05:28 PM.

[theg721]

Nice idea. You've certainly got my backing!

[Tepi]

What a horrible idea.

What do you think could separate these "Game Maker errors" from user errors in the point of view of a casual newbie? How many errors that are thought to be errors actually do turn out to be Game Maker's anyway? You will see by just looking at the bug tracking posts you'll see that this idea will fail horribly.

Even if all of the topics were moved by an admin (allowing no members to post in that area), this would be waste of effort, since the list would need updating at every release of GM. If you really need a list, go to bugs.yoyogames.com: that's a dynamic listing that also benefits the developers of Game Maker, and helps getting rid of the problems.

[GameGeisha]

If you find an error with GM or Softwrap, go to YoYo's Mantis bug reporting system or Softwrap's help desk for assistance, not here. GM's developers don't go into the GMC looking for bugs.

In addition, there is already a sticky at the top of the Community forum which clearly states that GMC will not handle Softwrap glitches. The wording is pretty straight forward, so I don't know why you don't grok its message.

GameGeisha

[KC LC]

The GMC staff have considered this many times. I don't really favor the idea for these reasons:

1. The sub-forum won't be noticed. "Help Me" topics will still be posted in Community.
2. Even when the sub-forum IS noticed, members will still repeat the same questions. And it will attract misplaced Novice questions.


But a more serious concern is this:

3. Such a sub-forum gives the false impression that the GMC has some "official capacity" to solve installation or registration problems. So users will waste time here, instead of immediately contacting Softwrap or YYG Helpdesk.

@Fred: I realize you said "not softwrap problems", but that won't stop users from posting them, any more than the pinned topic does. So I fear our efforts to help will actually be counter-productive.

But none of these are that big a deal. So if the staff want to raise this issue again, I won't object.

[ev149]

I don't think this is such a good idea. Having an entire forum for errors makes a bad first impression for new users. "Troubleshooting" may be a less detractive name. Misplaced Novice Q&A questions would probably end up here as well.
There isn't a huge amount of errors anyway, maybe one or two per page. An entire subforum would be pretty inactive save for the first few topics, similarly to the Distributing Games forum (more people need to post there, it's an interesting place).

[Frederick]

1. The sub-forum won't be noticed. "Help Me" topics will still be posted in Community.

It's a little hard to miss... You have to scroll past it to click "New Topic"

2. Even when the sub-forum IS noticed, members will still repeat the same questions. And it will attract misplaced Novice questions.

Put a READ ME FIRST pinned topic telling them to go through the sub forum topics and see if their error was already answered. Kind of what they do for FAQ pages...

O_O

Even if all of the topics were moved by an admin (allowing no members to post in that area), this would be waste of effort, since the list would need updating at every release of GM.

It's better than drowning the Community forum with these topics. At least then we'd have some room for just Community related topics.

3. Such a sub-forum gives the false impression that the GMC has some "official capacity" to solve installation or registration problems. So users will waste time here, instead of immediately contacting Softwrap or YYG Helpdesk.

Doubt it. Especially if you explain that Softwrap and registration issues and/or questions are NOT allowed here in big bold letters on the forum. O_O

Or you could be a little formal...

O_O

Edited by Frederick, 18 April 2010 - 06:43 PM.

[C-c-JEC-c-C]

Interesting idea. Usually, the "help!" topics are posted in the community forum. With it at the top, I don't see any reason for it to be ignored. I just don't see why the mods/admins etc should have to answer the questions that come up; it's not their job -- setting up that sub-forum would make things seem more official. Normal members probably wouldn't care about that sub-forum.

As for determining where the error comes from: it doesn't matter if it is the fault of the user or game maker itself; the key thing is that someone gets help.

I think it is better when errors are reported to the YoYo games staff; that way they can be made aware of potential errors -- perhaps a "report to YoYo games" option could be included in GameMaker? I haven't noticed one.

Even if all of the topics were moved by an admin (allowing no members to post in that area), this would be waste of effort, since the list would need updating at every release of GM.

I agree, and that means the sub-forum should only count for new topics. If it does happen, just let the old topics sink down - hopefully never to re-surface. Members should have to state what version they're using, though.

Put a READ ME FIRST pinned topic telling them to go through the sub forum topics and see if their error was already answered. Kind of what they do for FAQ pages...

O_O

It's fair enough to put a "READ ME FIRST" topic there, but I think those members tend to post those things because they're lazy or inattentive. It is true that such topics appearing in the community forum could be considered as unwanted (not as annoying) as spam topics(disregarding incidence rates). As a service to the community, perhaps it would be a good addition -- I just think it isn't the quick fix the community needs. I don't know if people prefer to have (potentially) whole communities discussing their "game maker related" problems, or just one mod -- yet the people who should deal with it are the help desk dudes... or whatever.

I'm bored.

[jalb]

It's a little hard to miss... You have to scroll past it to click "New Topic"

Put a READ ME FIRST pinned topic telling them to go through the sub forum topics and see if their error was already answered. Kind of what they do for FAQ pages...

It will still go unnoticed. Much like the stickies and the "Community Forum Rules" at the top goes unnoticed many times by new users who post irrelevant issues in The Community.

It's better than drowning the Community forum with these topics. At least then we'd have some room for just Community related topics.

Game Maker issues are community related topics. As this is the Game Maker Community. Besides, do we really have that many help topics that they're "drowning" The Community forum?

3. Such a sub-forum gives the false impression that the GMC has some "official capacity" to solve installation or registration problems. So users will waste time here, instead of immediately contacting Softwrap or YYG Helpdesk.

Doubt it. Especially if you explain that Softwrap and registration issues and/or questions are NOT allowed here in big bold letters on the forum. O_O

People will most likely still ignore this. By your logic, people will have to scroll by the "Pinned: Dealing With Gm Activation Problems" topic before clicking "New Topic", and yet we still get people asking for softwrap related issues.

[Caniac]

Thank you oh wise and wonderful Frederick for posting this idea, I am sure it will brighten the lives of the users on the GMC to a point previously thought impossible.


(A random image I found on the web that I edited for the occasion)

On a more serious note though, this is a really, really bad idea, for reasons already pointed out. It would soon become a cluttered forum with people posting asking completely unrelated questions, griping about GMs price and using plenty of " "

Edited by Caniac, 18 April 2010 - 11:07 PM.

[Desert Dog]

Thank you oh wise and wonderful Frederick for posting this idea, I am sure it will brighten the lives of the users on the GMC to a point previously thought impossible.....

.....On a more serious note though, this is a really, really bad idea, for reasons already pointed out. It would soon become a cluttered forum with people posting asking completely unrelated questions, griping about GMs price and using plenty of

No need to get cheeky master caniac.

The idea isn't 'bad' per say, I just don't think it'll work... or perhaps, work that well.

I like reading error messages, and finding the solution. I've read a lot of topics in the novice Q&A, and I'm quite familiar with the various error messages which come up, and the various reasons why they would come up. It helped me grow a lot as a coder, and whenever I got a similar message in my own game making, most of the time, I would remember reading about it, and recall the solution/what caused it. Making games with GM just got a lot easier.

If there was such an error board, I'd probably read it, although I'm familiar with most of the more common error messages, now, and the different causes for them. And I think it'd be beneficial for many people new to GML coding, to read through it, too.

On a side note, Flexaplex's excellent Novice FAQ Covers many of the most frequent, and basic error messages, and I really think that should cover it. The problem is, I don't think that many people read it. [I know I didn't know it existed, when I started! Would have saved me hours of grief...]

[Frederick]

@Caniac Spam much?

Come on, humor me

Edited by Frederick, 19 April 2010 - 08:18 AM.

[Takagi]

No Frederick, I don\'t think it\'s a good idea to make it easy for those with errors to find other error topics to see if someone might have already solved their problem.

I'm sensing a straw-man fallacy with *maybe* a hint of reductio ad absurdum.

Do you really think that little of your members?

My friend, you've never been a moderator here.

And in some senses, this has been tried. We have a forum specifically for Team building, yet there are still a good amount of "Hey, can I get a team up in here?!" topics in Novice Q&A/Game I&D. We have a forum for "Novice Questions and Answers", yet still, a lot of newcomers post in "Advanced" and "3D".

To a newcomer, every error message is a potential "GM error"-- it's not immaturity on their part-- I'd imagine a majority of them have little computer programming training so they honestly think that any error message they get is not an error on their part, but an error with Game Maker. Now instead of posting this question in the Novice Q&A forum, they will post it in the "GM errors" forum. And so will a lot of other people who get an error message when making a game. Soon enough, the forum will be filled with posts about GM issues when its really PBKC.

So basically, what KC said.

Edited by Takagi, 19 April 2010 - 01:34 AM.

[quadriseene]

I\'m really sick of hearing \"This won\'t work\" everywhere I go... Someone once said \"You don\'t know til you try\". And really, you\'re only assuming the worst of people. Do you really think that little of your members?

Give them a break. They aren't paid to moderate the forums, they do it only out of interest of maintaining them (and possibly exerting their power over the puny GMC members, but that's human nature, and unrelated to whether they care about 'their' members). They aren't just assuming the worst of people. They're using logic and deducing that it won't work based on previous events. The saying 'you don't know until you try', is flawed. You can use reasoning along with things that have happened previously to infer a result. Lo and behold, when you try, you're usually given the same results as the ones you inferred (except in some cases where you're incorrect or the subject chooses to simply do something completely random).
As has been said before, it's fairly easy to assume that most newcomers will not quite understand the exact structure of the forums and post something incorrectly. It happens more often than not. And it's not exactly like moderators need more work to do.

On an unrelated note, what is it with this plague of backslashes before punctuation?

@Caniac: Wait, so Frederick is like the golden calf in that he's better at not leading his people into a desert than God? Good to know, but kind of irrelevant. Maybe I'm missing the point here, or the point of Exodus.

Edited by quadriseene, 19 April 2010 - 04:11 AM.

[Frederick]

My friend, you've never been a moderator here.

Wow! I didn't know! I'll try to remember that next time...

Still find it funny how forums complain about something being too hard because there aren't enough of them... Hmm. The solution isn't obvious to them? Get more help. It's not rocket science.

quadriseene, No, I was just making it sound more dramatic

Edited by Frederick, 19 April 2010 - 04:12 AM.

[Desert Dog]

I'm really sick of hearing "This won't work" everywhere I go... Someone once said "You don't know til you try". And really, you're only assuming the worst of people. Do you really think that little of your members?

Don't get me wrong... This is the impression you're making. And don't call it false unless you're ready to make a different impression.

Come on, humor me

Sure.

I don't know about 'everywhere you go', but here, you've submitted an idea to the community for discussion. For the most part, you've received good, decent posts giving you feedback (as it were) on your idea. Sure, the majority of the posts are negative. Pointing out how the cons of your idea, and reasons why it wouldn't work.

It's natural for you to be defensive of your idea, but rather than trying to make out other people are narrow-minded, it'd be much better to try address the good points that many of them raised, with counter points, how your idea benefits the community, and nulls the negative side-effects that such a topic is claimed to have... they do have good points, but how can we address that?

Maybe it's possible that a few changes could be made to the original idea, to nullify these negative points being pointed out?

Edited by Desert Dog, 19 April 2010 - 04:24 AM.

[Takagi]

Wow! I didn't know! I'll try to remember that next time...

My point still stands. Once you're on the receiving end of things (reports, moving, deleting, editing) posts, you notice the amount of spam/trash a lot more than when you just have to click the report button. Again, this is not anything you can help, its just a perception issue-- we've been jaded through experience.

As Desert Dog mentioned, what are your ideas to address some of the criticism brought forth?

[TheMordeus]

I agree that there is a problem, but I dont think this is the correct solution. Thats no reason to bash the guy who tries to come up with a solution though, atleast he's trying.

[Frederick]

As Desert Dog mentioned, what are your ideas to address some of the criticism brought forth?

Being over dramatic about everyone suddenly breaking the rules over just one sub forum? Not going to happen. They won't break the rules anymore with the new sub forum than they've already been.

It's natural for you to be defensive of your idea

The correct word is dramatic. I see no reason to calmly answer...

Yes, you've given reasons why it might not work. Try it first before giving an official not going to work label.

How many times have the people of the GMC said this or that wouldn't work and it did? So many... I say give it a shot. What have you got to lose?

Once you're on the receiving end of things (reports, moving, deleting, editing) posts, you notice the amount of spam/trash a lot more than when you just have to click the report button.

I have to say, I have had my share of those things. Sure, not here on the GMC, but there were still a couple thousand members.

Edited by Frederick, 19 April 2010 - 08:26 AM.

[makerofthegames]

How many times have the people of the GMC said this or that wouldn't work and it did?

Let me think..
One? The new layout for the Game Maker Creations forum.

The other time is the GMCG, and as we can all see, it hasn't worked yet. I'm still rooting for it though.