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#101 FredFredrickson

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 03:53 PM

I wasn't looking at the situation purely from a U.S. perspective. I was looking at it from an ethical point of view. Piracy isn't justified just because you don't feel comfortable using your credit card somewhere; it doesn't entitle you to things for free no matter where you live, no matter who you are, and no matter what your means consist of.

You haven't understood me. It's not that I don't feel comfortable using credit card. It's the fact that it's not easiest thing to do from huge part of the world.

Okay, it's not easy to do. That still doesn't justify piracy, or entitle you to something for free that the rest of the world has to pay for.

And your ethical point of view is US ethical point of view. And industrial point of view. You can't compare physical product with software in every single aspect. It's a whole new concept that needs new laws and ethical codes separated than what we used for past couple millennias.

I'll grant you that software is indeed different from a physical product, and must be treated differently in some ways. But then, I don't agree that the definition of piracy or theft should be any different when it comes to software. If a company spends lots of time and money developing software, and they choose to ask people to pay for it, then you must then decide whether or not you want to pay their price. If you can't or won't, then you shouldn't be using their software, the product of their labor, simple as that.
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#102 Yourself

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 05:21 PM

So far, we are divided into 2 parties.

Party 1 thinks that piracy is wrong
Party 2 also thinks piracy is wrong but they also think that piracy is different from stealing, and is sometimes the lesser evil.
Party 1 thinks that party 2's view of piracy actually means party 2 supports piracy.
Party 2 proves this false.
Party 1 attacks and nitpicks party 2 to avoid having to admit they are wrong.
Party 2 gets pissed at the idiocy of party 1.

If you look at other heated off-topic discussions in the community forum, you can see that they follow a similar pattern, and parties are usually composed of the same people.


How is piracy a 'lesser evil'? That implies that you have a choice between stealing and piracy. As in, "I could either steal this or pirate it, and pirating isn't quite as evil."

Is that really what people are saying? If it is, that's evidently not true. Piracy is stealing. You are taking something of value without paying for it. That is stealing. Yes, it's not as damaging as stealing a physical object because copies are essentially free to produce, but it's still stealing. Just because copies are produced for nothing doesn't make it okay, especially since software is a luxury item and not a necessity.
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#103 petenka

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 06:52 PM

I hold no opinion.

Edited by petenka, 03 March 2010 - 10:10 PM.

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#104 e_barroga

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 06:54 PM

You haven't understood me. It's not that I don't feel comfortable using credit card. It's the fact that it's not easiest thing to do from huge part of the world.
And your ethical point of view is US ethical point of view. And industrial point of view. You can't compare physical product with software in every single aspect. It's a whole new concept that needs new laws and ethical codes separated than what we used for past couple millennias.


It isn't entirely a whole new concept. It is simply what we have used for past couple millennias, the only difference is that technology advances have allowed products to be distributed a lot easier. The concept remains the same: you can have it if you buy it. You're complaining that it isn't the easiest thing to do, but if it couldn't be digitally distributed you wouldn't have it anyways. There is no ethical difference between pirating and stealing tangible goods.

Party 1 thinks that party 2's view of piracy actually means party 2 supports piracy.

Piracy helping business, piracy not affecting business, piracy not unethical, etc. are all justifying piracy.
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#105 onpon4

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:06 PM

Piracy helping business, piracy not affecting business, piracy not unethical, etc. are all justifying piracy.


I already responded to this. Look back. It's about probability, not "piracy helps" or "piracy has no effect". You're making false assumptions.
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#106 e_barroga

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:09 PM

I already responded to this. Look back. It's about probability, not "piracy helps" or "piracy has no effect". You're making false assumptions.

Probability of what? Of a pirate purchasing a legal copy of the product they are pirating? If this assumption is wrong, tell me what is right.

Edited by e_barroga, 03 March 2010 - 07:10 PM.

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#107 NakedPaulToast

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:15 PM

However, if you read some of the articles people posted, companies like Microsoft actually prefer it if you pirate their software instead of using someone else's software.


This is absolutely absurd.

Yes, we can come up with the occasional situation where a sale has resulted from a piracy incident, but to state that a company prefers their software to be pirated instead of using a competing product has no basis.

Care to supply a quote from Microsoft to substantiate your claim, or are you going to keep on making this claim to justify your own unethical tendencies.

Edited by NakedPaulToast, 03 March 2010 - 07:16 PM.

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#108 petenka

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:19 PM

I hold no opinion.

Edited by petenka, 03 March 2010 - 10:10 PM.

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#109 KC LC

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:35 PM

The fact is, one of Microsoft's business managers, Jeff Raikes, did make a similar statement in 2007. He was discussing Microsoft's plans to fight piracy by introducing cheap pay-as-you-go Office software, and ad-supported software. Their goal is to lure some of the thieves away from complete piracy -- in the hopes they might become paying customers for some less-expensive Office software.

But I wouldn't say this was "Microsoft policy". The situation is far too complex for a simple policy like this. And his comment has been misinterpreted by low-life, scumbag losers (like some in this topic) for another excuse to rationalize their immoral behavior.
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#110 Recreate

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:38 PM

scumbag losers (like some in this topic)


Hmm... A bit harsh... Eh? B-)
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#111 KC LC

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:42 PM

Hmm... A bit harsh... Eh?

Why? For calling them what they are? They're dirty thieves who deserve NO respect here. They cost us all money by forcing manufactures to raise prices for honest users.
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#112 e_barroga

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:46 PM

I don't understand, how is being more lenient about piracy beneficial? The easier and more widely accepted it is to pirate Windows, the less people will pay. Look at the music industry. Right now the majority of society don't have the slightest clue how to pirate, some don't even know what an OS is or the concept of programs.

Let's just wait and see if piracy "is" beneficial in the long run.
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#113 Recreate

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:46 PM

Are you referring to pirates? That pirated windows(or some other microsoft product)?
edit: dammit posted too slow
edit2: But if it's pirates in general, don't blame them so harshly. They simply can't afford some software that they need. There's no other option for them.

Edited by Recreate, 03 March 2010 - 07:50 PM.

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#114 superjoebob

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:50 PM

Hmm... A bit harsh... Eh?

They're dirty thieves who deserve NO respect here.

Exactly, which is why I can't understand why we even need to give them a chance to discuss it. Piracy is illegal, piracy is wrong. There's nothing more to say. We wouldn't be discussing whether or not it's acceptable to steal MP3 players from Wal-Mart, so why are we discussing this?
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#115 Recreate

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:54 PM

piracy is wrong. There's nothing more to say.


Wrong as in... unethical? Or wrong as in... a crime? As in a crime. Obviously. But ethically, it's not so clear. To some it is. To others it is not...
edit: Not that iI wish to imply that I'm a pirate or that I encourage it. I discourage it, but It's the last resort to some people.

Edited by Recreate, 03 March 2010 - 07:55 PM.

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#116 Samscam

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:54 PM

However, if you read some of the articles people posted, companies like Microsoft actually prefer it if you pirate their software instead of using someone else's software.


This is absolutely absurd.

Yes, we can come up with the occasional situation where a sale has resulted from a piracy incident, but to state that a company prefers their software to be pirated instead of using a competing product has no basis.

Care to supply a quote from Microsoft to substantiate your claim, or are you going to keep on making this claim to justify your own unethical tendencies.

Care to read the whole topic instead of skipping some pages/posts?

I don't understand, how is being more lenient about piracy beneficial?

Like I said, their sale won't drop, but their userbase will increase.

Piracy is illegal and should be stopped, but the economical effects of piracy are completely different than those of stealing.
If you steal something from a store, thats one product less that the shopkeeper can sell. If you use pirated software, it won't change the sales.
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#117 superjoebob

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:59 PM

But ethically, it's not so clear. To some it is. To others it is not...

No, Piracy means getting something for free which you are supposed to pay for. I don't care what way you look at it, that is stealing, and stealing is unethical, stealing is wrong.

Edited by superjoebob, 03 March 2010 - 08:00 PM.

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#118 petenka

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:06 PM

I hold no opinion.

Edited by petenka, 03 March 2010 - 10:10 PM.

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#119 superjoebob

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:13 PM

Yes in the USA legal courts, and most other places, piracy is illegal.
However, whether or not it really is right is an OPINION.

Stealing is when you take something that is not yours. Stealing hurts the people you steal from. Therefore in a civilized society, stealing is wrong. I don't care if you're poor, if something doesn't belong to you, you have no right to it. Of course it can all boil down to opinions, but saying that it's OK to steal is simply barbaric. Maybe it should be OK to kill people whenever you want. It's only an opinion that killing is wrong, right?

We could talk about peoples opinions on morality all day, but the fact of the matter is that there is no headway to be made here.

Edited by superjoebob, 03 March 2010 - 08:15 PM.

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#120 Recreate

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:15 PM

But ethically, it's not so clear. To some it is. To others it is not...

No, Piracy means getting something for free which you are supposed to pay for. I don't care what way you look at it, that is stealing, and stealing is unethical, stealing is wrong.


Stealing is taking something and leaving nothing. Piracy is making a copy(or should i say cloning) something and leaving the original untouched. Now one could be stealing the money the author could have made if you bought it, but then again pirates only pirate as a last resort, because they couldn't have bought it in the first place.

But really, lets stop arguing, this is infinite. And gets us nowhere.

Edited by Recreate, 03 March 2010 - 08:16 PM.

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#121 superjoebob

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:23 PM

Stealing is taking something and leaving nothing. Piracy is making a copy(or should i say cloning) something and leaving the original untouched.

The fact is that if a company only charges $1000 for a piece of software that cost 5 million to produce, they rely on people paying for their software in order to build up a profit. Sure, they have infinite copies, but they payed a lot of money to produce the software, and by not contributing you are stealing.

pirates only pirate as a last resort, because they couldn't have bought it in the first place.

No, Every pirate I know who pirates video games only does so because they don't feel like spending 50 bucks. That's hardly a last resort.

In fact, you can live in this world just fine without any computer software at all, so how could stealing software ever be a last resort?
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#122 Smarty

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:23 PM

Many times throughout history, there have been cultures where people did barbaric things (by modern opinion), and they thought it was right. Then some other empire comes along and says they are wrong and deserve to die. Both sides had their opinions.
Here again, right and wrong are opinions.
Yes in the USA legal courts, and most other places, piracy is illegal.
However, whether or not it really is right is an OPINION.
It doesn't matter how many people agree, or who decides that, it is still only an opinion.
Right and wrong are not factual things, there is no scientific method to find it.
I'm not saying piracy is right or wrong, I'm simply saying people should drop their ultimatum way of declaring something is wrong.

Right. Racism isn't wrong either, it's just a different opinion.
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#123 petenka

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:27 PM

I hold no opinion.

Edited by petenka, 03 March 2010 - 10:10 PM.

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#124 superjoebob

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:32 PM

And it's a legally supported opinion.
That's why they're called supreme court opinions.
But for the longest time, racism was considered right.

Alright, well how about from this point on we base right and wrong on the views of people with souls.
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#125 petenka

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:35 PM

I hold no opinion.

Edited by petenka, 03 March 2010 - 10:11 PM.

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#126 Rusky

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:39 PM

It's funny how people will shout their opinion and then shout that it's off topic.

"IM RITE NAO SHUT UP KAY"
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#127 linx137520

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:40 PM

edit2: But if it's pirates in general, don't blame them so harshly. They simply can't afford some software that they need. There's no other option for them.

For anyone who says this it's complete and total bullcrap. It's called don't use the product, it's not a necessity.
Edit: Whoops B-) , after reading desertdog's post i should make this clear, this post is directed towards american "poor".

Edited by linx137520, 03 March 2010 - 09:31 PM.

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#128 Smarty

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:41 PM

And it's a legally supported opinion.
That's why they're called supreme court opinions.
But for the longest time, racism was considered right.

The word isn't that old.

But that has nothing to do with the topic of this topic, and neither does piracy.

It had to do with your point, so it's unfair to try and run away from it. Society defines right or wrong, whether you like it or not and it is shaped by universal human values. And those aren't as opinionated and whimsical as you would like them to be. Piracy is a form of theft, and theft is considered wrong.

And I'm disappointed that this has to be explained.
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#129 petenka

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:47 PM

I hold no opinion.

See dead horse above for more info.

Edited by petenka, 03 March 2010 - 10:12 PM.

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#130 YellowAfterlife

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:57 PM

petenka, what is about tactic of [pop up in the topic - start arguing with everyone - flee once you start to loose]?

Edited by YellowAfterlife, 03 March 2010 - 09:19 PM.

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#131 Archamond

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:58 PM

I now have tear in my eye and feel really bad.
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#132 KC LC

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:59 PM

I'm disappointed that the staff isn't doing their job, and is only encouraging this discussion by providing their own opinions.
[snip]
I am now going to completely take the ignorethistopiccompletelyuntilthisdiscussionends stance.
Goodbye Game Maker Open Source topic.
I hope to see you when you're better off.

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#133 Desert Dog

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 09:25 PM

Yes in the USA legal courts, and most other places, piracy is illegal.
However, whether or not it really is right is an OPINION.

No it isn't.

It's easy to foolishly think so, because the chances of getting caught & prosecuted are really non-existent. Honesty in this case, is something you have to conscientiously decide do yourself.

I'm not sure on the exact technical terminologies, or whatever, but it's basically like an agreement between the software developer and the user.. if you use the full version, you have to pay him a small sum. By not paying that, your breaking that agreement, and therefore stealing from him.

Simply excusing yourself with maybe that there 'is no actual agreement' or something similar is not right. It's an ethical, and honesty thing. B-)

Why? For calling them what they are? They're dirty thieves who deserve NO respect here. They cost us all money by forcing manufactures to raise prices for honest users.

Pirating is pretty black&white, except for countries like Latvia, Russie, etc, where that is the only way these people will get the software.. as Archamond said, in his country(serbia?) it is very difficult to make online purchases, and as far as I know, in some countries it's literally impossible.(especially for the younger kids/teens, and I'd hate for them to miss out )

Ethically, it's still 'wrong' of them, but can you really label them scumbags? I can't. (I'm not justifying them, I'm merely not judging them)

In fact, the only pirates *I* can label scumbags, is 'western' nation kids, which have plenty of computer games, and can easily save money, yet pirate games(indie games, really) In their case, it's just wanton greed.

Edited by Desert Dog, 03 March 2010 - 09:33 PM.

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#134 KC LC

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 10:18 PM

Pirating is pretty black&white, except for countries like Latvia, Russie, etc, where that is the only way these people will get the software

Where are you getting this misinformation? It's just false. Microsoft has offices in Serbia and Latvia -- both brick and online:

http://office.micros...de/default.aspx
http://www.microsoft...lv/default.aspx

So does Dell and most other computer / software retailers. It may a bit more complicated to buy software there, because the online retail services are primitive. But smart people -- and ethical people -- figure it out. It's not rocket science.

I have a pen pal in Serbia. She goes to the University of Nove Sad (Novi? not sure). She uses all the standard Windows software that came on her Dell computer, and she buys other software (most graphics packages).
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#135 onpon4

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 10:30 PM

Wow. I am just plain disappointed. Not only are mods and admins not doing something about this off-topic discussion, but they are supporting it.

I am beginning to see why some people look down on the GMC.

Why? For calling them what they are? They're dirty thieves who deserve NO respect here. They cost us all money by forcing manufactures to raise prices for honest users.


Calling people scumbags because they disagree with you? Now that's low. And the worst part is you get away with it just because your an admin.

Edited by jaychant, 03 March 2010 - 10:34 PM.

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#136 Archamond

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 10:35 PM

Where are you getting this misinformation? It's just false. Microsoft has offices in Serbia and Latvia -- both brick and online:

http://office.micros...de/default.aspx
http://www.microsoft...lv/default.aspx

So does Dell and most other computer / software retailers. It may a bit more complicated to buy software there, because the online retail services are primitive. But smart people -- and ethical people -- figure it out. It's not rocket science.

I have a pen pal in Serbia. She goes to the University of Nove Sad (Novi? not sure). She uses all the standard Windows software that came on her Dell computer, and she buys other software (most graphics packages).

It's Novi B-)

And it's not medieval here. There are stores, and lot of them, with legal software. We can buy legally most of the top and AAA stuff. Both games, movies or music. That is not a problem. I bought several original DVDs here.

Problem is online payment which can be major pain in the ass. And companies that don't offer their products in stores here and you can only order online. As I said, most of the top stuff gets pretty fast in stores, but there are games that you need to wait for months and there are some that are never on the shelves.


And about ethical issues. What is more unethical: pirating software or "services" like Steam? Or that new UbiSoft's DRM. What if I don't want them to play Big Brother on my PC? What if I want to play my games and not be connected to internet all the time. I have broadband and it is not problem for me to be online, but what if I don't want to? Yes, answer could be simply not buy their products. But what they are doing is monopolistic and highly unethical. Not illegal in any sort of way(yet), but in my opinion, far more unethical than pirating.


And about Windows software that comes with computers. Yes, you can choose to buy it with installed legal Windows, but, for example, my father had/have lot of adventures with purchasing(?) his free upgrade to Windows 7 he was promised when bought Toshiba laptop with Vista late last year...
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#137 linx137520

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 10:36 PM

Wow. I am just plain disappointed. Not only are mods and admins not doing something about this off-topic discussion, but they are supporting it.

I am beginning to see why some people look down on the GMC.

Well, isnt it up to the mods to decide what to do? It's pretty funny since you helped contribute to this discussion.


Why? For calling them what they are? They're dirty thieves who deserve NO respect here. They cost us all money by forcing manufactures to raise prices for honest users.


Calling people scumbags because they disagree with you?

No because they are thieves.

Edited by linx137520, 03 March 2010 - 10:36 PM.

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#138 Recreate

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:02 PM

pirates only pirate as a last resort, because they couldn't have bought it in the first place.

No, Every pirate I know who pirates video games only does so because they don't feel like spending 50 bucks. That's hardly a last resort.

In fact, you can live in this world just fine without any computer software at all, so how could stealing software ever be a last resort?


As in, One needs adobe photoshop for a project. They can't spend several K for it. And can't use anything else for various reasons. What do they do? Fail the project?
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#139 MrOpposite

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:15 PM

pirates only pirate as a last resort, because they couldn't have bought it in the first place.

No, Every pirate I know who pirates video games only does so because they don't feel like spending 50 bucks. That's hardly a last resort.

In fact, you can live in this world just fine without any computer software at all, so how could stealing software ever be a last resort?


As in, One needs adobe photoshop for a project. They can't spend several K for it. And can't use anything else for various reasons. What do they do? Fail the project?

Hmm, what if that you feel like buying a software, and you do pirate the software, do something with it that brings you money then you buy it? Would that be morally correct?
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#140 Recreate

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:20 PM

When software is needed for commercial purposes it's always bought. Because the company can afford it and can repay it's cost.

Now answer my question.

Edited by Recreate, 03 March 2010 - 11:21 PM.

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#141 hpapillon

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:25 PM

As in, One needs adobe photoshop for a project. They can't spend several K for it. And can't use anything else for various reasons. What do they do? Fail the project?


You don't need photoshop for a project, you want it. There's a big difference.

If you were actually required to use photoshop, it would be provided for you by your school/work/whatever.
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#142 onpon4

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:29 PM

No because they are thieves.


KC LC explicitly called people posting in this very topic scumbags:

And his comment has been misinterpreted by low-life, scumbag losers (like some in this topic) for another excuse to rationalize their immoral behavior.


She doesn't explicitly mention any names, but she is making the clear assumption that some people in this topic are "scumbag losers", clearly based on our position.

You don't need photoshop for a project, you want it. There's a big difference.

If you were actually required to use photoshop, it would be provided for you by your school/work/whatever.


You might be trying to make graphics and sell them, because you like making graphics.

Of course you don't NEED photoshop; you can use GIMP. But would using GIMP instead really hurt Adobe any less than pirating Photoshop?

Edited by jaychant, 03 March 2010 - 11:33 PM.

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#143 WMCD

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:30 PM

As in, One needs adobe photoshop for a project. They can't spend several K for it. And can't use anything else for various reasons. What do they do? Fail the project?


You don't need photoshop for a project, you want it. There's a big difference.

If you were actually required to use photoshop, it would be provided for you by your school/work/whatever.


You beat me to it, hpapillon.

Recreate, the truth of the matter is that it's not a necessity; you can live without software *gasp!* or even a computer *double-gasp!*. It's not like they're stealing food so they don't starve.

No because they are thieves.


KC LC explicitly called people posting in this very topic scumbags:

And his comment has been misinterpreted by low-life, scumbag losers (like some in this topic) for another excuse to rationalize their immoral behavior.


She doesn't explicitly mention any names, but she is making the clear assumption that some people in this topic are "scumbag losers", clearly based on our position.


Because your position is in favor of breaking a fundamental law: don't steal.

Edited by WMCD, 03 March 2010 - 11:33 PM.

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#144 ev149

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:33 PM

If you were actually required to use photoshop, it would be provided for you by your school/work/whatever.

I disagree. For my math classes, I need a Texas Instruments 83-Plus Silver Edition, which costs about $200. My school doesn't provide me with it, I need to buy it myself. If you need Photoshop and nothing else, and it isn't provided for you, you must either buy it or pirate it. I'm not trying to justify pirating, nor am I saying it isn't an option - it is, just not a smart one.
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#145 KC LC

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:33 PM

As in, One needs adobe photoshop for a project. They can't spend several K for it. And can't use anything else for various reasons. What do they do? Fail the project?

Are you that ethically challenged that you honestly don't know the answer? Or maybe you're just joking... I can't tell.

Look, if you don't have the tools for that project, then you've chosen the wrong project. Or you've promised more than you can deliver. Neither of those miscalculations on your part justifies stealing the software.

I promised my Aunt we could have some teak shelves in our living room... that's my project. But I can only afford pine shelves. What do I do? Steal some teak? Or lower my sights a bit until I can afford it?
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#146 hpapillon

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:42 PM

I disagree. For my math classes, I need a Texas Instruments 83-Plus Silver Edition, which costs about $200. My school doesn't provide me with it, I need to buy it myself. If you need Photoshop and nothing else, and it isn't provided for you, you must either buy it or pirate it. I'm not trying to justify pirating, nor am I saying it isn't an option - it is, just not a smart one.


Okay, true, I should clarify further - it would be provided for you or you would be required to purchase it as part of the class.

That's not that unusual. Many art classes, for instance, involve equipment fees because you have to buy extra stuff which is necessary to complete the class. (paint, clay, whatever)

And sometimes, this can suck. I signed up for an art class once only to find out that in order to take the class I was required to go to one particular store and pick up supplies. I honestly could not reach the store (it was only open during work hours and I had no car so I couldn't even go on a lunch break). So I dropped the class. Because, you know, I wasn't exactly going to steal a car. :P
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#147 e_barroga

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:45 PM

What is more unethical: pirating software or "services" like Steam? Or that new UbiSoft's DRM. What if I don't want them to play Big Brother on my PC? What if I want to play my games and not be connected to internet all the time.

Quite ironic for one to question the ethics behind piracy then turn around and question the ethics of a business's answer to pirates' (the "non-scum") actions. If people didn't pirate perhaps Big Brother wouldn't be on your PC.

far more unethical than pirating.

Sure it is. Someone who really understood pirating would blame the pirates.

Pirating hurts both consumers and producers. Piracy scared many developers away from the PSP, thus no would-be product to purchase and consumers suffer. Piracy is another factor that scares developers away from PC games, thus consumers suffer and must wait for a later release or no release at all.

Saying that piracy does not affect sales because software is infinite supply is incorrect. Supply means nothing when someone can just willingly take it from you.

Wrong as in... unethical? Or wrong as in... a crime? As in a crime. Obviously. But ethically, it's not so clear.

You're right it is not so clear. :P It is hard for people to see if it is ethical to use something that costs money without paying for it.
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#148 Desert Dog

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:48 PM

Pirating is pretty black&white, except for countries like Latvia, Russie, etc, where that is the only way these people will get the software

Where are you getting this misinformation? It's just false. Microsoft has offices in Serbia and Latvia -- both brick and online:

http://office.micros...de/default.aspx
http://www.microsoft...lv/default.aspx

So does Dell and most other computer / software retailers. It may a bit more complicated to buy software there, because the online retail services are primitive. But smart people -- and ethical people -- figure it out. It's not rocket science.

I have a pen pal in Serbia. She goes to the University of Nove Sad (Novi? not sure). She uses all the standard Windows software that came on her Dell computer, and she buys other software (most graphics packages).


I wasn't talking about Microsoft or those larger companies(they tend to get everywhere)

Thinking back to where I heard this, I think it was me reading something about indie's having difficulty selling to people in those countries(Well, I believe that Russia was the principle name mentioned).. I believe because most online payment systems don't trust them. I'm talking a bit vaguely here, and I can't find anything as a reference. :P

But yeah, your right. I was speaking of something, with incorrect/insufficient infomation. :) I was only speaking generally, however...
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#149 Recreate

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:50 PM

As in, One needs adobe photoshop for a project. They can't spend several K for it. And can't use anything else for various reasons. What do they do? Fail the project?


You don't need photoshop for a project, you want it. There's a big difference.

If you were actually required to use photoshop, it would be provided for you by your school/work/whatever.


I meant as in a personal project. And it's not always provided. Not to mention there could be complications meaning you don't have access to the legal copy.

Edited by Recreate, 04 March 2010 - 12:28 AM.

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#150 KC LC

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:53 PM

KC LC explicitly called people posting in this very topic scumbags:
...
She doesn't explicitly mention any names, but she is making the clear assumption that some people in this topic are "scumbag losers", clearly based on our position.

Your position? Sorry for the confusion. :P Let me be more clear so there's no question about MY position. Ready?

If you steal someone's property, or you take the position that it's justified -- as many in this topic have done -- then you are a scumbag loser. That's MY position and I'm sticking with it. Clear enough?

I'm an Admin, not your Cub Scout Den Mother. I'm not here to boost your self-esteem. I'm free to state my opinion just as others have.
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