1833 replies to this topic

[NakedPaulToast]

That's not the point. The law will catch up with them. Stealing source code is the same deal as stealing from a store. So, if you run a small corner store, do you advocate using military guards to ensure that no one steals from your store? Wouldn't you rather just call the police if someone steals from you?

Stealing source code is very different than stealing from a store.

Stealing from a store is generally a criminal matter. Copyright issues are typically civil matters.

Most jurisdictions are also experienced and equipped to handle shoplifting. Most individuals are not, they simply do not have the experience nor the financial means to do anything about it.

Edited by KC LC, 04 March 2010 - 12:22 PM.

[onpon4]

That's not the point. The law will catch up with them. Stealing source code is the same deal as stealing from a store. So, if you run a small corner store, do you advocate using military guards to ensure that no one steals from your store? Wouldn't you rather just call the police if someone steals from you?

Stealing source code is very different than stealing from a store.

Stealing from a store is generally a criminal matter. Copyright issues are typically civil matters.

Most jurisdictions are also experienced and equipped to handle shoplifting. Most individuals are not, they simply do not have the experience nor the financial means to do anything about it.

There is a such a thing as copyright law, you know. Some scumbag isn't going to be successful taking someone else's copyrighted work and claiming it as their own.

[makerofthegames]

But that isn't the point.

@NPT, another reason is that if you steal from a store, you take something..If you steal something digital, you make a duplicant of it, and take that.
But that's just semantics anyway..

Edited by makerofthegames, 01 March 2010 - 09:57 PM.

[KC LC]

if you steal from a store, you take something..If you steal something digital, you make a duplicant of it, and take that.

What a horrible, misguided argument.

The theft is identical is both cases, because what you're stealing is the vendor's profit he would make from that item if you purchased it legally.

Whether the item is tangible or intangible makes absolutely NO difference.

[makerofthegames]

Except that if you duplicate it and take it, they don't lose money. If you steal from a store, they do. Because it takes away a chance of someone else buying it.

And, to repeat myself; lose money. Not lose profit.

Edited by makerofthegames, 01 March 2010 - 11:11 PM.

[ev149]

Is profit not money? Because if I create a commercial game and sell it, I'm not earning marshmallows.

[Desert Dog]

Except that if you duplicate it and take it, they don't lose money. If you steal from a store, they do.

And, to repeat myself; lose money. Not lose profit.

To repeat? You never said that to begin with...

And yes, they do lose money. They lose the money they would have made if you didn't steal it.

[makerofthegames]

To repeat?

Except that if you duplicate it and take it, they don't lose money. If you steal from a store, they do.

Emphasis on lose money, that's why I repeated myself in the course of one post.

And yes, they do lose money. They lose the money they would have made if you didn't steal it.

The difference is that you take away a sale permanently if you steal from a store, and also you may or may not ever buy (whatever you pirated) legally online.

Example: Someone steals the last CD in a row from a store, someone else comes by wanting to buy it but now can't.
If you pirate something from the internet, you don't remove a sale necessarily.

EDIT:
Secondary example: If someone steals an entire row of CDs (assume it's the same CD) from a store, that takes away some serious money.
If you pirate the same something 20 times, it makes no difference.

_{I am against pirating, yes, but there is a difference.}

Edited by makerofthegames, 01 March 2010 - 10:48 PM.

[NakedPaulToast]

That's not the point. The law will catch up with them. Stealing source code is the same deal as stealing from a store. So, if you run a small corner store, do you advocate using military guards to ensure that no one steals from your store? Wouldn't you rather just call the police if someone steals from you?

Stealing source code is very different than stealing from a store.

Stealing from a store is generally a criminal matter. Copyright issues are typically civil matters.

Most jurisdictions are also experienced and equipped to handle shoplifting. Most individuals are not, they simply do not have the experience nor the financial means to do anything about it.

There is a such a thing as copyright law, you know. Some scumbag isn't going to be successful taking someone else's copyrighted work and claiming it as their own.

Yes there is such thing as copyright law. Maybe you should actually read it some time.

Here it is:
http://www.copyright...17/92chap5.html

( The legal or beneficial owner of an exclusive right under a copyright is entitled, subject to the requirements of section 411, to institute an action for any infringement of that particular right committed while he or she is the owner of it. The court may require such owner to serve written notice of the action with a copy of the complaint upon any person shown, by the records of the Copyright Office or otherwise, to have or claim an interest in the copyright, and shall require that such notice be served upon any person whose interest is likely to be affected by a decision in the case. The court may require the joinder, and shall permit the intervention, of any person having or claiming an interest in the copyright.

Let me explain what it says.
The Law allows the copyright owner to institute an action [sue] someone who has infringed your copyright.

That's why it's a civil matter not a criminal matter. Now instead of simply telling people there are laws, why don't you actually learn about them.

[Desert Dog]

To repeat?

Except that if you duplicate it and take it, they don't lose money. If you steal from a store, they do.

Emphasis on lose money, that's why I repeated myself in the course of one post.

And yes, they do lose money. They lose the money they would have made if you didn't steal it.

The difference is that you take away a sale permanently if you steal from a store, and also you may or may not ever buy (whatever you pirated) legally online.

Example: Someone steals the last CD in a row from a store, someone else comes by wanting to buy it but now can't.
If you pirate something from the internet, you don't remove a sale necessarily.

EDIT:
Secondary example: If someone steals an entire row of CDs (assume it's the same CD) from a store, that takes away some serious money.
If you pirate the same something 20 times, it makes no difference.

_{I am against pirating, yes, but there is a difference.}

So what exactly do you believe? Do you actually believe that pirating software will not make the software developer lose money? The facts certainly don't agree with this.

[makerofthegames]

Yes and no. It varies case-by-case.

There is a difference in pirating something you would have bought if you didn't pirate it, and just pirate it.

The latter has no loss of profit on the developer's side that I can see. It's either that, or not having it. _{I choose not having it.}
But that isn't the point I'm making, the point I am making is that there is definitally a big difference between shop-lifting and pirating.

P.S.
What facts?

EDIT:
My point is this: If you steal from a store, they lose money because it removes a chance of someone else buying said thing. Pirating does not work like this, because it is digital. Like I said, if you steal an entire row of CDs (assuming it's the same CD) they lose some serious cash in theory. If you pirate the same thing 50 times, it's as if you did it once.

Edited by makerofthegames, 01 March 2010 - 11:35 PM.

[onpon4]

Yes there is such thing as copyright law. Maybe you should actually read it some time.

Here it is:
http://www.copyright...17/92chap5.html

( The legal or beneficial owner of an exclusive right under a copyright is entitled, subject to the requirements of section 411, to institute an action for any infringement of that particular right committed while he or she is the owner of it. The court may require such owner to serve written notice of the action with a copy of the complaint upon any person shown, by the records of the Copyright Office or otherwise, to have or claim an interest in the copyright, and shall require that such notice be served upon any person whose interest is likely to be affected by a decision in the case. The court may require the joinder, and shall permit the intervention, of any person having or claiming an interest in the copyright.

Let me explain what it says.
The Law allows the copyright owner to institute an action [sue] someone who has infringed your copyright.

That's why it's a civil matter not a criminal matter. Now instead of simply telling people there are laws, why don't you actually learn about them.

OK, so the thief gets sued for it instead of being arrested by the police. I don't see how this negates copyright being a law.

Edited by jaychant, 01 March 2010 - 11:07 PM.

[NakedPaulToast]

OK, so the thief gets sued for it instead of being arrested by the police. I don't see how this negates copyright being a law.

I never said it wasn't a law.

What I said is it was a civil matter, not a criminal matter. That's when you stuck your ignorance into an area you know nothing about.

[WMCD]

Except that if you duplicate it and take it, they don't lose money. If you steal from a store, they do. Because it takes away a chance of someone else buying it.

And, to repeat myself; lose money. Not lose profit.

All you have done is redefined the term 'profit' to support your argument.

Potential sales are lost, and that's all that matters.

You see, developers put in time (yes, time=money), money, and resources to create their software, which is their initial investment in their product. If everyone steals a copy of the program without paying the developer (and I say 'everyone' because considering that it's okay for a few people to steal it "if they can get away with it" is just ridiculous) then the developer looses their invested money. This is essentially the same as the whole "stores loose physical wares in theft, which is their initial investment" argument.

...Because it takes away a chance of someone else buying it.

...

That's loss of potential sales. When someone steals a copy of a program online for free instead of paying for it, that's also loss of potential sales. The free option pulls people away from the payment option.

[onpon4]

OK, so the thief gets sued for it instead of being arrested by the police. I don't see how this negates copyright being a law.

I never said it wasn't a law.

What I said is it was a civil matter, not a criminal matter. That's when you stuck your ignorance into an area you know nothing about.

And I never said it was a criminal matter. I said it was law.

[Desert Dog]

There is a difference in pirating something you would have bought if you didn't pirate it, and just pirate it.

That's a cop out. If your going to pirate something, you want it. If you want it, you will pay for it.
The only exceptions would be people who are literally unable to purchase things... (I *believe* that people in Russia(for example) have difficulty making online money transactions.)

But that isn't the point I'm making, the point I am making is that there is definitally a big difference between shop-lifting and pirating.

Of course they are different. Cat burgling and pick pocketing are different, too.

EDIT: Oops, I misread you.
Yes, pirating don't make any developers lose money.
You simply cannot get their money, or remove money from them by pirating..Am I wrong?

If you had said lose profit, then read the above.

No, lose money is a perfectly fine terminology. Don't make the mistake that software developers simple make the product, and from then on it's just 'profit'. Such an attitude is naive, software developers are just like any other business/company, and if they don't turn over cash, they fold. Simple as that. Not purchasing there products, and instead, pirating them 'chokes' them of the money that would otherwise come in, and possibly force them to even fold, or seek a more lucrative occupation. The time&money spent developing the software was lost.

P.S.
What facts?

The facts is knowing the developers, and caring even a little for them. For example, the creators of World of Goo released there game without DRM, or any sort of protection. It's my understanding, that 90% of the full version installations were pirated games. That's a huge number, and if it wasn't for the other 10%, chances are 2D Boy would no longer exist.. at least, not to make games.

This is the story all around for any game/software developer, although I think that 90% is generally quite a high stat (and why most games have DRM...)

Simply arguing that your unlikely to buy the game, anyway, so they aren't losing anything is ridiculous and a cop out.

My point is this: If you steal from a store, they lose money because it removes a chance of someone else buying said thing. Pirating does not work like this, because it is digital. Like I said, if you steal an entire row of CDs (assuming it's the same CD) they lose some serious cash in theory. If you pirate the same thing 50 times, it's as if you did it once.

And if you've already pirated it, then you won't buy the CD, and neither will anyone else who's already pirated it. The only real difference, is that now the CD company are losing money, too.

Edited by Desert Dog, 02 March 2010 - 12:01 AM.

[Recreate]

My point is this: If you steal from a store, they lose money because it removes a chance of someone else buying said thing. Pirating does not work like this, because it is digital. Like I said, if you steal an entire row of CDs (assuming it's the same CD) they lose some serious cash in theory. If you pirate the same thing 50 times, it's as if you did it once.

Not to mention on one loses any money. Because the person who pirated it would not have bought it in the first place. The main reason people pirate things is because they can't afford it.

[WMCD]

My point is this: If you steal from a store, they lose money because it removes a chance of someone else buying said thing. Pirating does not work like this, because it is digital. Like I said, if you steal an entire row of CDs (assuming it's the same CD) they lose some serious cash in theory. If you pirate the same thing 50 times, it's as if you did it once.

Not to mention on one loses any money. Because the person who pirated it would not have bought it in the first place. The main reason people pirate things is because they can't afford it.

Those are assumptions.

[makerofthegames]

Desert Dog, if you're going to try and counter my arguments, actually think of a reason my argument is wrong, other than I disagree with you.

Those are assumptions.

So is that everyone who pirates anything would have bought it if they didn't have any way to pirate it.

And if you've already pirated it, then you won't buy the CD, and neither will anyone else.

This isn't true/you have no basis for saying this..

That's a cop out.

See above.

Simply arguing that your unlikely to buy the game, anyway, so they aren't losing anything is ridiculous and a cop out.

See above.

And if you've already pirated it, then you won't buy the CD, and neither will anyone else.

See above.

software developers are just like any other business/company, and if they don't turn over cash, they fold.

Yeah, because one person can cause an entire business to go under. Besides, it's the same thing.

The facts is

Everything under this and above the next quote is all crap.
I asked "what facts" because I wanted facts.

A fact is something you can prove to be true, right? So prove it. Show me. Your post isn't logical enough to be said to be fact.

Cat burgling and pick pocketing are different, too.

And you're the one pointing out "cop-outs." ...

Look, pirating the same thing 50 times doesn't hurt the developer 50 times over, does it? This is different from stealing from the store, by a large margin.
Cat burgling and pick pocketing aren't different in this way. If you do either 50 times over, it's the same as if done from a store.

EDIT:
@WMCD "...everyone steals a copy..."
Since when are we talking about "everyone" !?!?
I'm talking about just one guy.

Edited by makerofthegames, 02 March 2010 - 12:05 AM.

[miky]

Intellectual property laws exist so that people who make software for a living (if you don't know what that means, it means that that's how they make money in order to buy food, clothes, shelter, etc., so that they can live). If you break intellectual property laws and don't pay for software, you're not giving the software's creator money for what they do for a living.

You can rationalize all you want that pirating isn't stealing because it's just a copy, and people who pirate wouldn't have bought it in the first place, and other things which are mostly true, but it doesn't change the fact that you are taking advantage of someone who worked hard to give you something in exchange for money so that they can survive. It doesn't change the fact that you are stealing from them.