20 replies to this topic

[p4tr1ck]

Hello everyone. I don't know many people here because I am often found in the YYG forums rather than here.
I'm not sure if this belongs here, but if it doesn't, sorry.
I came to this section because after reading posts, you guys seem to...know what your talking about.

After having the sudden realization, that we all eventually get at one point or another, that GM is horribly limited in its capabilities, I set out to find the language that is right for me. I wasn't sure what I wanted: coding programs, or coding games. Obviously C# was my first guess, but I didn't think I was ready after only having moderate experience with first HTML (and CSS), then PHP, then GML. It just seemed to complicated for me.
My next try was java, mostly because it could be roughly embedded into webpages, and its amazing portability. But its syntax, again, left me baffled on how I would possibly learn it.
Then very recently, I tried darkBASIC which is just a fancy version of the BASIC language, and after learning it a little bit, I started to wonder about Delphi.

I first saw the use of Delphi in use with a small animator called TISFAT, which used joints to animated figures. Then I saw it in the amazing FL studio music creation program. It obviously (or atleast from the programs I have seen it used with) is very visual. And of course in Game Maker. I suppose that would mean good for both games/applications.

So my question is, what do you think I should do? Stay with GML (Please say no :D), darkBASIC, or Delphi, or am I just totally wrong about everything I am saying here?
Thanks.

Edited by nailgun, 13 February 2010 - 04:39 AM.

[general sirhc]

Unless you plan on programming something that has very high quality graphic effects or very high quality 3d or requires extreme processing speed for something like processing files, then you should just stick with GML

[p4tr1ck]

Lol, how did I know I was going to get that answer.
I want to move on to something more practical and professional, and can be used for good applications as well.
Thanks though

[general sirhc]

because most of the time game maker does the task perfectly fine, if you want to build what you call "good" applications go to c++

However your idea of a good application is very different to mine, my idea of a good application is one that gets the job done with ease

http://gmc.yoyogames...howtopic=225528 < Skeleton
http://gmc.yoyogames...howtopic=418116 < Hyperpage
http://gmc.yoyogames...howtopic=462683 < Or on a more personal note my own Diary App

The only occasions that speed is a problem is either
a) poor programming < GTA IV for PC is a perfect example
the programming language used is not fast enough < GM d3d is a good example, but this is far rarer than a)

[p4tr1ck]

I personally think that GTA 4 was either designed for either XBOX 360 or PS3, and they purchased crappy, cheap porting software.
Too cheap, I think.
Anyways, I think your right. Although GML has its obvious limitations, I suppose it can be used to create some astonishing things.
But, If you had to choose from the things I listed and NOT GML, what would you choose? :D

[general sirhc]

darkbasic, I have never used it but I have a friend who is a reasonably average programmer and he says he can use it well so I would definitely go with darkbasic, however personally I would go C++ since if I need the power C++ probably has got a fair bit more

[YellowAfterlife]

Delphi is clearly very good for all kinds of application developement, since it has a lot of functionality for interaction with user, and other windows.
darkbasic can be used only for 2d\3d game developement.
If you want something similar for gm, but free & 3d, you might want to be interested in LiteC.

[T-Bird]

If you plan to make programming into a career then you'll need to learn something other than GML - for some strange reason it's not industry standard. If you are only looking for hobby programing GML is great. If you find that GML doesn't have features you want, but don't want to take the step of learning an entirely new languages there are always DLLs to do just about anything you want.

If you do want to try your hand at another language here's some thoughts:

PHP, Python, Ruby - These are common languages with a not-insignificant demand in the industry. However they all are high level, and do not compile into assembly/machine code (although there are some projects to compile these languages into other languages like C which could then be compiled). These are mostly used for web and/or script programming.

Java - Very powerful, ultra-portable, strong demand in industry, does not compile into assembly/machine code. Java compiles into bytecode, not machine code, so it does require a JRE. However Java is easily accessible and is installed on many (most) computers, and though it's in bytecode it can run quite fast. Since it's syntax is similar to the C languages it has a bit of a learning curve.

C/C++ - These two are in high demand, and are sort of the "defacto" programming languages. They can be difficult to learn, but have the potential to be extremely powerful, and are also very portable (at least the standard library is, most other libraries are platform specific).

BASIC languages - Most of these are considered to be "beginner's" languages, and other than VB, none of them have much industry demand. They all are very high level and aren't as powerful as lower level languages. VB is windows dependant.

I don't know much about Delphi and the other Pascal-based languages, so I can't comment there, but they seem to not have as high of a demand as C/C++ or Java. This is by no means an exhaustive list, but hopefully this covers most of the languages you were thinking about learning.

I'd personally recommend learning Java or C++. These are two of the most in-demand languages you can learn, both are very powerful, and both are accepted as game programing languages. Even though they are harder to learn, you will gain a much stronger understanding of computers and how they work, as well as software engineering principles from these languages. They also generally produce more powerful programs (especially C/C++) than the others listed. However the power you gain comes at the cost of longer production time and a steeper learning curve.

[PlasticineGuy]

Java is also 100% portable. The same Java "executable" will run on any computer with the Java Runtime.

[ynspyred]

Funny you should mention darkBasic. The same organisation which develops darkBasic has another (free) product called darkGDK. If you want to learn C++, download this, because the great thing is that it is incredibly easy to use, as much so as GM (Im not kidding), but you get all the power of C++. This way, you can continue making games (and more advanced games than you could have with game maker), and you will learn C++ along the way.

[lollola]

I'd like to add one very interesting and obscure language to the list. It surely isn't industry standard.. It's an interpreted language with easy syntax and almost unbelievable speed, both "compile" and runtime. It has .dll and .so support, can be translated to C and works on Windows, Linux, OSX, FreeBSD and some more obscure OS's.

Euphoria propaganda on Wikipedia

[~Dannyboy~]

Java is also 100% portable. The same Java "executable" will run on any computer with the Java Runtime.

Using the exact same logic Game Maker is 100% portable...

If you wish to become a "professional" programmer, I recommend a professional education in the field.

[GearGOD]

C#C#C#C#C#

Did I mention C#?
It's a great middle step towards C/C++ if you ever want those, and most importantly its a very clean language with very well defined practices and guidelines. It will teach you to write good code as most of what's out there is good code. The last thing you want to start with is VB. I honestly wish that language never existed. It gave so many non-programmers the impression that they can write code, when the're really writing steaming piles of crap.

[PlasticineGuy]

That's true, but since Java is maintained by lots and lots of people, it is much easier to send out a version of the runtime for any given platform.

[p4tr1ck]

Im sorry to ask this, but...
What IS the difference between C#,C++, and C?
I know they are all powerful, but that's about it. I tried learning one of them once because I wanted to give the Irrlicht engine a shot, but it was much too complicated.

Also, your saying that DarkGDK uses C#, and not BASIC?
I have actually tried DarkBASIC and it has some great features and is mildly easy to learn, but I don't like how it relies heavily on specific keywords like
TEXT SET COLOR RGB
and the fact that it's variables aren't as loosely used as GML, for example any variable with a string HAS to have $ at the end, sort of like PHP. Annoying.
EDIT: Also, GearGOD, you need to post more on messy mind. I really like that website and the last post was in december... :/
I really want to hear more about Aziel

Edited by nailgun, 13 February 2010 - 03:17 PM.

[paul23]

Im sorry to ask this, but...
What IS the difference between C#,C++, and C?
I know they are all powerful, but that's about it. I tried learning one of them once because I wanted to give the Irrlicht engine a shot, but it was much too complicated.

Lol a better question would be: what are the similarities .
They work with complete different paradigms. - Wikipedia has quite a few good articles about this subject....

[PlasticineGuy]

C++ is simply an extension of C. It's C with a few features added like a much improved standard library and Object-Oriented Programming.

C# is a completely different language.

[paul23]

C++ is simply an extension of C. It's C with a few features added like a much improved standard library and Object-Oriented Programming.

C# is a completely different language.

Uhm no, C++ is not an extension of C!

Some things in C won't work in C++ (variable arrays for example), and some things in C++ won't work in C... - If you're looking for an extension to C which includes object oriented programming Object-C is what you want.

However it is true that C++ is largely based originally on C (with some strong influences from simula): yet it should not be seen as an "extension"...

[PlasticineGuy]

Give me an example of C that:
a. Is not lazy and
b. Cannot be changed to compile in C++ (I edited this because you are right in a way).

The only notable differences that spring to mind are the fact that C++ requires more explicit typecasting (must cast void*s returned by malloc/GlobalAlloc) and it cannot default to int for functions if you fail to define a return type.

The first is a valid concern, but the second is simply a result of laziness (and even then the first is a bit lazy because the compiler adds it anyway).

Variable arrays? Never heard of them; please explain.
EDIT: After reading, I can see what you mean; however that can be circumvented in C++:

//C99
int x = 5, y[x];
//C++
int x = 5, *y = new int[x];

The syntax and program structure is largely the same in any case; C# however is totally different.

Edited by PlasticineGuy, 13 February 2010 - 11:10 PM.

[miky]

C++ is not the most powerful programming language ever. C is good for low Java is definitely not, either. C# is quite a bit more powerful, although it's still somewhat low-level in comparison to many other languages

Ruby, Python, or Lua (Löve2D is great) would be the best choices to move on from Game Maker.

C++ is simply an extension of C. It's C with a few features added like a much improved standard library and Object-Oriented Programming.

C# is a completely different language.

Uhm no, C++ is not an extension of C!

Uh, yes, for almost all intents and purposes, it is!

You make variables in C named C++ keywords, but that's completely obvious. Pretty much the only other difference that is notable is that void *'s can be implicitly casted in C.

C99 added several things that are not in C++, but C++ is not an extension of C99. C++0x will most likely add these features anyway.

Some things in C won't work in C++ (variable arrays for example), and some things in C++ won't work in C... - If you're looking for an extension to C which includes object oriented programming Object-C is what you want.

There is no such thing as Object-C. There is Objective-C, however. It is a strict superset of C, but that's not why you would use it over C++...

However it is true that C++ is largely based originally on C (with some strong influences from simula): yet it should not be seen as an "extension"...

Yes, it should be seen as an extension, because that's exactly what it is.

Edited by miky, 14 February 2010 - 12:10 AM.