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The Use In Trigger Events


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#1 onpon4

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 10:38 PM

My understanding of trigger events is that it executes the given code every step, then does the event if it returns 1 (true).

So I just don't get it; what is the point in using trigger events?

I can see two uses for them:
1. Better organization
2. Separation from code allows it to be called in other places easily

However, since it isn't backwards-compatible with GM7, it requires Pro, and it apparently doesn't improve speed, I fail to see the real use for it. The better organization is a good thing, but you can do without it. Being able to call it elsewhere is nice, but this can be achieved easily with user defined events, and you generally don't even need to do this for the most part anyways.

So, in your opinion, is it worth it to use trigger events? Or is it better to just use user defined events or even just put it in the step event?

Edited by jaychant, 11 February 2010 - 10:43 PM.

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#2 Yourself

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 10:47 PM

since it isn't backwards-compatible with GM


Uhhh, so?

but this can be achieved easily with user defined events


User defined events can't be named. User defined events must be triggered explicitly.

The better organization is a good thing, but you can do without it.


Better go use Assembly, then.

I don't get it, you list the two benefits of trigger events, then ask what benefits the trigger events have? What reason do you have for not using trigger events? What's better about user defined events?

Edited by Yourself, 11 February 2010 - 10:48 PM.

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#3 9_6

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 10:52 PM

Well he has a point.
What do trigger events better that if-checks in the step event can't do that good?
They just clutter the events up.
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#4 onpon4

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 10:54 PM

What I meant was, if you use trigger events, you can't share your source code with Lite users or GM7 users. So it seems that the costs outweigh the benefits.
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#5 Kolink

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:02 PM

I don't plan to use trigger events... like, ever. event_user(0) works just fine for me, and doing it manually means you can check it every 10 steps, or whatever, to make the game faster.
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#6 NakedPaulToast

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 12:12 AM

What I meant was, if you use trigger events, you can't share your source code with Lite users or GM7 users. So it seems that the costs outweigh the benefits.


Using this logic we'd all be limiting ourselves to the lite only functions of Version 5.
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#7 JaketheSnake3636

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 01:14 AM

What I meant was, if you use trigger events, you can't share your source code with Lite users or GM7 users. So it seems that the costs outweigh the benefits.


Using this logic we'd all be limiting ourselves to the lite only functions of Version 5.

He's not saying all new features since version 5 are outweighed by their downsides, only the trigger events. In his opinion, it's not worth it to use them because of their apparent downsides. He's not forcing people to agree with him, so I don't see what's wrong with that. His logic never once implies that all new features are unworthy of being added because of their inability to work with previous versions.
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#8 superjoebob

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 01:26 AM

However, since it isn't backwards-compatible with GM7, it requires Pro, and it apparently doesn't improve speed, I fail to see the real use for it.

You could technically say that about drag and drop as well (Apart from the pro part) :).
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#9 Nocturne

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 07:26 AM

Personally I found the trigger events useful for my current WIP... The step event of a couple of objects have over 250 lines of code with multiple "if" and "switch"... The trigger events came in useful to seperate it out and give me a more visual aproach to the code...
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#10 T-Bird

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 07:43 AM

I don't see why you are comparing trigger events to user-defined events. They are two completely different events for two completely different purposes. To recommend that one replaces the other is to completely misunderstand what either of them is.

User events are effectively scripts that are local to your object, you put code into one then manually trigger it when you're ready. This lets you have code activated on command from any event in your object (or from another object).

Trigger events are an abstraction for a series of code snippets that happen before Step events. The trigger event "if(x > 100)" with the action "y += 1" is exactly equivalent to a step event of "if(x > 100) { y += 1 } ... and the remainder of your step event goes here". All it is, is an organizational technique. Rather than having several if statements at the start of your step event you can pack them away in triggers which don't improve performance in any way, but just make it easier to keep things sorted. A 100 line step code can be turned into a series of short triggers which are easier to maintain, edit, and keep track of. Triggers also are portable between objects, so you can make one code change and have the change affect multiple objects. If you have a trigger of "if x > 1000" and each object does something when it crosses that line, then if you decide to move that line to x > 2000 all you have to do is change one trigger and the change takes affect for all objects. Saving potentially dozens of mundane code changes. (If triggers still work the way I remember from the RC).

Does this explain triggers?
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#11 onpon4

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 11:16 AM

Ah, inheritance. That is another good reason to use triggers.
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#12 Recreate

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:44 AM

What I meant was, if you use trigger events, you can't share your source code with Lite users or GM7 users. So it seems that the costs outweigh the benefits.


Using this logic we'd all be limiting ourselves to the lite only functions of Version 5.


Not everyone instantly got GM8. Many people may have bought GM7 before the time one can qualify for a free upgrade.
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#13 Yourself

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 05:14 PM

Many people may have bought GM7 before the time one can qualify for a free upgrade.


Which was well over a year ago, so that's not really an excuse. They're paying more for internet access than they are for GM by an order of magnitude.
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#14 9_6

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 05:52 PM

Who cares if gm7 had no triggers?
Gm8 gmk files can't be opened by that anyway.
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#15 petenka

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:23 PM

Who cares if gm7 had no triggers?
Gm8 gmk files can't be opened by that anyway.

Unless you resave them using lateralgm.

But by the OP's argument, you shouldn't use alpha transparency in your sprites either, otherwise you can't use them in gm7.
He's saying you shouldn't use the new features of gm8, because they are new and make life easier.
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#16 JaketheSnake3636

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:29 PM

He's saying you shouldn't use the new features of gm8, because they are new and make life easier.

No he's not.
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#17 onpon4

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:03 PM

Who cares if gm7 had no triggers?
Gm8 gmk files can't be opened by that anyway.

Unless you resave them using lateralgm.

But by the OP's argument, you shouldn't use alpha transparency in your sprites either, otherwise you can't use them in gm7.
He's saying you shouldn't use the new features of gm8, because they are new and make life easier.


You're not even close. :)

I'm saying that TRIGGER EVENTS are not useful enough considering that it requires GM8 Pro and doesn't improve the game considerably. Not everyone has GM8 Pro, so if I use trigger events in my open-source projects and/or team projects, anyone who doesn't have GM8 pro won't be able to use it. This would be fine if trigger events really offered a benefit (like an increase in speed), but it turns out that it doesn't.

Alpha transparency offers the obvious benefit of giving full control over transparency, whereas GM7 only applied full transparency to one color, and then a certain amount of transparency to the rest of the image. On top of that, this feature isn't restricted to Pro users.

Trigger events, on the other hand, are restricted to Pro users, and what benefits do they offer? You can organize your code a little better. But the restrictions? Well, you automatically make your game useless to anyone who hasn't bought GM8 Pro, which is fine if you intend to do everything by yourself and make it a closed-source project. But on any open-source project, this means you have to create a separate version for Lite users, which would mean some extra work or loss of features, or exclude Lite users, which would make the source only useful to Pro users. And you do this... to make life easier? You end up doing more work, or your project fails because you exclude the many users who haven't yet purchased Pro, or who never will purchase Pro.

Edited by jaychant, 13 February 2010 - 10:05 PM.

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#18 petenka

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:13 PM

@criticism to what I said - I was being sarcastic of course

Really, it's all just a matter of preference, and what you're doing.

If you're just making an example, it's best to use gm7 lite. If your example requires pro functions, then you might as well use triggers since your example is already pro only.
If you're making a closed-source game however, there's no reason not to use triggers other than personal preference.
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#19 Yourself

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:41 PM

And you do this... to make life easier? You end up doing more work, or your project fails because you exclude the many users who haven't yet purchased Pro, or who never will purchase Pro.


Why did you get pro if you're not going to use its features because not everyone has pro? That's just stupid.

Edited by Yourself, 13 February 2010 - 10:48 PM.

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#20 krele

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:45 PM

One GREAT thing is:

If you're making a multiplayer game with dual-view/screen, and you want to draw things in separate views, you can create a "Draw in View1" trigger and "Draw in View2" events. You would check "if view_current" and use screen_redraw at the end of each... Makes it a LOT more easier/organised in my opinion. It's an awesome improvement, atleast for me =)
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#21 miky

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:55 PM

Organization is an absolutely humongous reason to use triggers. Code is read far more than it is written, so anything that makes code clearer and easier to read is a plus (unless it has huge performance repercussions--but that rarely happens).

Inheritance is another huge benefit.

How often are you going to be sharing your gmk's with people who don't have GM8 Pro anyway? And using that logic, you shouldn't use 3D or particles, you shouldn't use png transparency, you shouldn't use pretty much anything that wasn't in GM5.
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#22 paul23

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 11:01 PM

Well I explained this a long time already: but I myself won't use triggers as much as I would like too...


For the simple reason they are always 'global', and even worse: hidden from the main interface (resource tree). In my opinion they should've been local to the object (and it's children), like user events are at the moment.. That would've increased the object-based activities of gamemaker a lot (It would've given us finally an 'unlimited' number of user-defined, LOCAL scripts).
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#23 onpon4

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 03:09 AM

Why did you get pro if you're not going to use its features because not everyone has pro? That's just stupid.


You're cherry-picking. Note what I said before that:

Well, you automatically make your game useless to anyone who hasn't bought GM8 Pro, which is fine if you intend to do everything by yourself and make it a closed-source project. But on any open-source project, (snip)


And let me point out, I do use Pro features, all the time. However, for open-source projects, I always either make a version for Lite users or build it into the main GMK (by checking gamemaker_pro before using Pro features), though I prefer the latter. The reason triggers are useless for open-source projects in my opinion is I'll end up having to redo it in the Lite-friendly version anyway, and considering that I would then be working with multiple different files at that point, it's just not worth it. Now, if it actually improved speed in the game or reduced size or something of that nature, I would use trigger events and deal with the extra file. But to my knowledge it doesn't, so I don't, at least not with open-source projects.

And using that logic, you shouldn't use 3D or particles, you shouldn't use png transparency, you shouldn't use pretty much anything that wasn't in GM5.


No...

3D allows the potential to make 3D games or make 2D games look much better. There is a clear reason to use it despite the Pro requirement.

PNG transparency, besides being supported by GM8 Lite, it very useful, allowing for more freedom customizing sprites.

Particles are nice graphical effects and can be easily made optional by first checking gamemaker_pro.

My logic is not "Lite doesn't have it, so I won't use it". My logic is "This function offers little improvement, yet requires Pro, so there's no real reason to use it". The exact same functionality that trigger events offer can easily be achieved with user defined events and checks in the step event, including inheritance, calling it from other places, and better organization (albeit not quite as good organization as trigger events).

Edited by jaychant, 14 February 2010 - 03:14 AM.

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#24 Yourself

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 06:45 AM

However, for open-source projects, I always either make a version for Lite users or build it into the main GMK


I don't understand why you singled out triggers then. You argued that they weren't worth it because they were pro only. Well, so what? A lot of features are pro only, but that's not a reason not to use them in general, which seemed to be the point you were trying to make. If you don't want to use them so you can produce something for lite users then fine, but then what's the point of this topic?
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#25 petenka

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 06:54 AM

what's the point of this topic?

Sometimes people just want to state their views.
Once they get people to agree with them, they feel satisfied.
If people don't agree, you can see what happened above.
There's no actual point to this topic.

Edited by petenka, 14 February 2010 - 06:55 AM.

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#26 jakman4242

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 07:36 AM

More of you need to hop on the Apple Bandwagon with their unwritten rule:
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#27 Schyler

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 07:42 AM

I think triggers are something that can be extremely useful, however in very few cases. It only takes one person to discover a really clever way of using them for something, and you won't ever hear the end of them.
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#28 onpon4

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 01:08 PM

I don't understand why you singled out triggers then. You argued that they weren't worth it because they were pro only. Well, so what? A lot of features are pro only, but that's not a reason not to use them in general, which seemed to be the point you were trying to make. If you don't want to use them so you can produce something for lite users then fine, but then what's the point of this topic?


I never said that I consider it useless because it's Pro-only. I'm saying that, the way I see it, it's not good enough to be Pro-only. Really, I'm getting sick of saying this over and over again, so just re-read my earlier posts. There's a reason for singling out Trigger events.

Sometimes people just want to state their views.
Once they get people to agree with them, they feel satisfied.
If people don't agree, you can see what happened above.
There's no actual point to this topic.


Actually, I was hoping to have a nice discussion about trigger events or Pro features in general, and to exchange ideas on the matter.

I'm not really arguing anything. I'm just kind of annoyed that some users don't get what my view is and/or keep manipulating it to be something it's not. People keep saying that I would rather use GM5 or assembly or that I consider new features useless. Which is just not true. If that was the case, then I wouldn't have paid $25 for GM7 Pro.

Now, I hate to bring up religion, but this is the best analogy that I can think of. Let's say you were a Christian Protestant and you were talking to a Catholic. You say to the Catholic that you think Catholicism is corrupt, evil, not right, etc. How would you feel, in that situation, if the Catholic then insisted that you worship Satan and/or hate God/Jesus because you hate Catholicism? In the same way, I'm saying that I consider ONE Pro feature to be not worth it, and a bunch of people are saying that I'm saying that I don't like ANY new features. Can you understand the frustration?

Most posts in this topic are good and actually discussing the topic, but these particular posts annoyed me:

Using this logic we'd all be limiting ourselves to the lite only functions of Version 5.

But by the OP's argument, you shouldn't use alpha transparency in your sprites either, otherwise you can't use them in gm7.
He's saying you shouldn't use the new features of gm8, because they are new and make life easier.

Why did you get pro if you're not going to use its features because not everyone has pro? That's just stupid.

How often are you going to be sharing your gmk's with people who don't have GM8 Pro anyway? And using that logic, you shouldn't use 3D or particles, you shouldn't use png transparency, you shouldn't use pretty much anything that wasn't in GM5.

I don't understand why you singled out triggers then. You argued that they weren't worth it because they were pro only. Well, so what? A lot of features are pro only, but that's not a reason not to use them in general, which seemed to be the point you were trying to make. If you don't want to use them so you can produce something for lite users then fine, but then what's the point of this topic?


Are you noticing a recurring theme here? Each of them is making the assumption that because I don't like Trigger events, I don't like ANY Pro features, and then asking why. One would have been fine, but it gets pretty annoying when it gets repeated over and over.
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#29 NakedPaulToast

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 04:51 PM

Are you noticing a recurring theme here? Each of them is making the assumption that because I don't like Trigger events, I don't like ANY Pro features, and then asking why. One would have been fine, but it gets pretty annoying when it gets repeated over and over.


No, you stated that because it was incompatible with GM7 and lite users, it's costs outweigh it's benefits.


What I meant was, if you use trigger events, you can't share your source code with Lite users or GM7 users. So it seems that the costs outweigh the benefits.


However, since it isn't backwards-compatible with GM7, it requires Pro, and it apparently doesn't improve speed, I fail to see the real use for it.


And whether you like it or not that same reasoning can be applied to all kinds of new features, with every new version of Game Maker. Not all of the new features translate into immediate and measurable speed improvements. Game Maker members have a tendency to focus only on major changes between versions, and neglecting all the minor or less dramatic innovations.

They then draw the conclusion that the newer version isn't much of an update, or they're not interested because the new features aren't useful to them it's not a worthy update.

They completely neglect the cumulative effect of all the smaller and subtle improvements.

My impression of triggers is they do little to improve the performance of the target exe, but they can significantly improve the organization, readability of the code itself. They can also lend themselves well to being shared between objects, something Game Maker has historically been very week in.

Triggers are a brand new concept, the community has little experience with them, there's been almost zero material published about them. It's a little early to be taking the attitude, I don't think they're useful, prove to me their value.
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#30 onpon4

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 05:10 PM

No, you stated that because it was incompatible with GM7 and lite users, it's costs outweigh it's benefits.


Yes, I said the costs outweigh the benefits.

However, in, for example, 3D, image rotation, and extensions, the benefits outweigh the costs. If forced to make two separate GMKs because, for example, I'm using extensions, then I would use triggers, because the benefits would outweigh the cost. But if I can keep everything in one GMK, then the costs outweigh the benefits.
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#31 Yourself

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 05:18 PM

Yes, I said the costs outweigh the benefits.


And your reasons for stating that can be applied to any pro feature. It had nothing to do with the triggers themselves and only had to do with the fact that they were pro and you could, therefore, not share the source with people who don't have pro, which you can't do with any pro feature. What is so difficult to understand here? You're not complaining about anything specific to triggers, you're complaining about every pro feature, whether you're going to admit it or not. Your entire motivation for not using triggers is based entirely on the fact that they're a pro feature and nothing else.
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#32 Recreate

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 05:28 PM

Many people may have bought GM7 before the time one can qualify for a free upgrade.


Which was well over a year ago, so that's not really an excuse. They're paying more for internet access than they are for GM by an order of magnitude.


Not them, But their parents likely are. Chances are because the parents need it for themselves(work?) and are sharing it with the rest of the family.
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#33 onpon4

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 09:37 PM

And your reasons for stating that can be applied to any pro feature. It had nothing to do with the triggers themselves and only had to do with the fact that they were pro and you could, therefore, not share the source with people who don't have pro, which you can't do with any pro feature. What is so difficult to understand here? You're not complaining about anything specific to triggers, you're complaining about every pro feature, whether you're going to admit it or not. Your entire motivation for not using triggers is based entirely on the fact that they're a pro feature and nothing else.


I'm not COMPLAINING. I'm only stating my opinion that they're USELESS. Complaining would be something like this:

Yourself is so ANNOYING! What doesn't he understand?!


Which is not what I did! I never complained about Trigger events, I stated that in MY OPINION, trigger events are not worth being a Pro-only feature! I don't see how I can make my position and the fact that it ONLY APPLIES TO TRIGGER EVENTS any clearer!
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#34 Hach-Que

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 09:58 PM

I stated that in MY OPINION, trigger events are not worth being a Pro-only feature!


In other words, you either find them useful and don't want people to have to pay to use them, or you find them completely useless in which case, why are you complaining? It doesn't affect you at all in that case.
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#35 onpon4

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 10:37 PM

In other words, you either find them useful and don't want people to have to pay to use them, or you find them completely useless in which case, why are you complaining? It doesn't affect you at all in that case.


AGAIN, I'm not complaining. I'm just stating my opinion.
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#36 NakedPaulToast

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 10:42 PM

Why do you think opinion can not be a complaint? They aren't mutually exclusive.
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#37 onpon4

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 11:03 PM

Opinion can be a complaint, but mine isn't. Trigger events are a good thing and nothing is lost with them being there. I just think that, for most open-source projects, it's not worth it.
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#38 petenka

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 11:14 PM

Opinion can be a complaint, but mine isn't. Trigger events are a good thing and nothing is lost with them being there. I just think that, for most open-source projects, it's not worth it.

Very well.
We agree that for open source games and examples, if it's not dependent on pro features, then you shouldn't use triggers, so lite users can use your example/open-source game.
There, end of discussion, there's nothing left to talk about.
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Edited by petenka, 14 February 2010 - 11:15 PM.

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#39 onpon4

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 11:32 PM

Very well.
We agree that for open source games and examples, if it's not dependent on pro features, then you shouldn't use triggers, so lite users can use your example/open-source game.
There, end of discussion, there's nothing left to talk about.
You don't want to harm the poor horsey do you?
<image>


I tried to make a reference to a video game, but failed, so...
Thank you! I agree!

Edited by jaychant, 14 February 2010 - 11:33 PM.

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#40 NakedPaulToast

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 11:35 PM

We agree that for open source games and examples, if it's not dependent on pro features, then you shouldn't use triggers, so lite users can use your example/open-source game.


No, we don't agree with that either.

There are those of us who happen to believe that if you are truly interested in Game Maker, then you should not be encouraging support for older and unregistered versions.

The more successful Game Maker is financially, the more resources can be devoted to it's development, this in turn will lend to more features and better performance in the future. Jaychant thinks he is being altruistic and positive for the community by defending new features as beneficial for Open Source development use. He's wrong.

Open source initiatives and success is practically non-existent amongst the Game Maker membership. The Open Source sub-forum is really nothing more than a wasteland of abandoned games. To date, I can't recall one released game of any significance, where someone has taken an Open Source effort, improved upon it, and released the game still retaining the Open Source philosophy. It's just not happening.

To use that as a valid reason to limit one's use of functions and features is silly. To do so and cater to those who won't support Game Maker, is even sillier.

Edited by NakedPaulToast, 14 February 2010 - 11:36 PM.

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#41 onpon4

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 11:42 PM

What about Hello Engine? It's seen quite a lot of success only because it's open-source. Mario Builder, which was made with Hello Engine 3, is one of the most played games on YoYoGames.com of all time.
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#42 GameGeisha

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 12:07 AM

Don't assume that open source is completely free -- it's not. Open-source licenses provides the right to view, edit and redistribute source codes, but only when the user is able to exercise these rights. Inexperience and wrong configurations are perpetual barriers to entry -- don't bother eliminating them.

What about Hello Engine? It's seen quite a lot of success only because it's open-source.

Hello Engine is successful not because it's open-source, but because a game made using it is successful (i.e. Mario Builder).

Mario Builder, which was made with Hello Engine 3, is one of the most played games on YoYoGames.com of all time.

You've introduced a counterargument through your own example. The description on Mario Builder's EXE Maker does say that GM7 pro is required for compilation. That certainly didn't have any effect on it being open-sourced.

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#43 onpon4

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 12:30 AM

Hello Engine is successful not because it's open-source, but because a game made using it is successful (i.e. Mario Builder).


But these games couldn't have been made if it wasn't open-source.
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#44 9_6

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 12:32 AM

Which has anything to do with trigger events how?
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#45 petenka

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 12:36 AM

Which has anything to do with trigger events how?

Absolutely nothing.
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#46 miky

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 01:16 AM

No, not absolutely nothing. It has to do with the reason that the OP had not to use triggers.
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#47 Hach-Que

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 05:35 AM

No, not absolutely nothing. It has to do with the reason that the OP had not to use triggers.

Except that:

The description on Mario Builder's EXE Maker does say that GM7 pro is required for compilation. That certainly didn't have any effect on it being open-sourced.

Since the game requires GM7 Pro to compile anyway, not using trigger events is pointless. In other words, the OP used an extremely irrelevant example to present his case.
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I don't visit these forums (and I haven't for quite some time). You can

see my latest community projects at the Redpoint Blog.


I never thought I'd see myself writing the above.. :(


#48 Smarty

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 11:15 PM

What the use is in triggers? Well, the customers wanted to have custom events, so the customers got custom events.

Sure, there were alternative methods to the same goal. But now it's built in and elegant to use. What more could you want for?
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#49 Frederick

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 12:21 AM

jaychant, they are useful for a lot of things. Only GML programmers can really benefit from them.
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#50 makerofthegames

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 03:35 AM

I think someone should make a video showing how to use triggers and stuff. It will be fun and you won't get bored - I promise.

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