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Game Maker 8 And Softwrap: Yes Or No?


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Poll: Game Maker 8, Softwrap, and the impending release date (809 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Game Maker 8 use Softwrap for a quicker release date?

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#681 zami

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 02:44 AM

Stop wasting time with DRM and release the damn thing.

Haven't you realized by now that no matter how long you spend developing/implementing DRM solutions, they're still going to be cracked within weeks and you're still punishing your paying users instead of giving them a valid reason to pay... Like not bundling your app with intrusive and/or annoying waste of time internet requiring crap?

DRM was thought up by corporate retards who don't understand software systems, and its the same corporate retards that insist on still including it with software today despite overwhelming evidence of it being useless at getting extra sales.


Just imagine if all software had was a button that asked if you had paid and once clicked registered the product.
it doesn't sound very good security, and if softwrap is again unreliable then more complaints will be made and GM will get less sales because everyone will be reading about complaints, you should never release software that isn't finished, and this is just the final step and if DRM is so bad, what is your solution to the problem, i hate to tell you but most likely everything will be cracked eventually, just look at windows, it's probably one of the most secure yet you still here about non-genuine versions and it doesn't use DRM.
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#682 broadsword

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 03:59 AM

...and if DRM is so bad, what is your solution to the problem, i hate to tell you but most likely everything will be cracked eventually, just look at windows, it's probably one of the most secure yet you still here about non-genuine versions and it doesn't use DRM.



You defeat your own argument here. That's his point. There is no reason to include DRM because it will be cracked within hours. A product key deters people from simply lying by pretending they payed for it but if you can find a key on the internet, you can probably find a crack. DRM doesn't solve anything except complicating the buying process, installing rootkits, and messing with your registry.

I personally hate the idea of Sandy even giving us, the users of a product, the ability to make business decisions like this. An icon is one thing, it directly affects how we view GM and frankly isn't horribly important to sales. Giving us a choice like this though is simply stupid. Microsoft made a lot of minor changes to Win7 that the users wanted. They didn't ask them when to release or what Genuine product activation to use....


Imagine if a major company did do that. They just open a poll on a community website and say "We can release our product now, right in time for Christmas, with the same downfalls it had before. Or you can wait 4-6 months when we'll have time to fix it." Obviously the majority and the uneducated will chose to release it now. But in no way is that the best business plan, unless of course the business has no care for the user's happiness. The best part is when the users complain the company can say "Hey you're the one who wanted it released.", which is no doubt what Sandy will say to the complaints users will again have with Softwrap. Sandy wins on two fronts actually. Not only can he ignore user complaints, he also doesn't have to worry about implementing the new YYG solution we were promised.

Now we have hundreds of people, many of which 1) probably don't even know what DRM is or what is stands for 2) have never dealt with Softwrap and 3) simply see this as vote "yes" for now and "no" for later.

So after waiting for months and months, excited that YYG would finally take control and implement their own system for GM, it now comes down to a post on the GMC that will no doubt end in Softwrap implementation and the assurance that I won't be purchasing GM9(luckily, thanks to my favorite drm softwrap, i had to purchase a new key and i fall within the limits for a free upgrade), on the principle that YYG's plan and actions as a business no longer match what I believe they should as a consumer.
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#683 Yourself

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 04:25 AM

My point was that, if Softwrap is was bad as people like Ampersand make it out to be, people woulnd't even consider it. But such is not the case

Are you sure?
If atomic bombs were as bad as people make them out to be, people wouldn't even consider them?
If sony's drm rootkit was such a bad idea, people wouldn't even consider it?


Yeah, and Hitler was all about DRM.
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#684 petenka

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 04:39 AM

My point was that, if Softwrap is was bad as people like Ampersand make it out to be, people woulnd't even consider it. But such is not the case

Are you sure?
If atomic bombs were as bad as people make them out to be, people wouldn't even consider them?
If sony's drm rootkit was such a bad idea, people wouldn't even consider it?


Yeah, and Hitler was all about DRM.


Godwin's Law!!!

Edited by petenka, 18 December 2009 - 04:39 AM.

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#685 WMCD

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 04:41 AM

My point was that, if Softwrap is was bad as people like Ampersand make it out to be, people woulnd't even consider it. But such is not the case

Are you sure?
If atomic bombs were as bad as people make them out to be, people wouldn't even consider them?
If sony's drm rootkit was such a bad idea, people wouldn't even consider it?


Yeah, and Hitler was all about DRM.


Godwin's Law!!!


More like Ad Hitlerum. :)
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#686 toko5

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 05:15 AM

mm,I barely used GM8,what is softwrap?
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#687 whgoss

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 05:17 AM

mm,I barely used GM8,what is softwrap?

I'd like some of your time-traveling technology please!
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#688 toko5

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 05:20 AM

I already told you where to get it!
hmm,I'm talking about the beta
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#689 T-Bird

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 05:26 AM

mm,I barely used GM8,what is softwrap?


I think this is in fact a profound statement.

It proves that, unless you have problems with softwrap, there is no need to know what it is, or even that it exists. There is all of this commotion over what is intended to be a transparent piece of the system.

Why do we care what DRM gets used, as long as it works? As long as it works it has no effect on our usage of Game Maker.

GMC Members have a lot of funny misconceptions that the tools used to create something somehow validate, or depreciate, the project. Some general examples of comments often heard here:

"That game was made in GM, and GM is inefficient, so if you made that game in C++ it would be better (even though the game performs perfectly as intended using GM"
"I don't like Softwrap, so even if their DRM works, I don't want it because it's made by them"
"Albert Zak was using a trial version of Illustrator, he'd never used it before, ergo, his logo must be horrible, because a novice made it"

Give the same game, the same GM, or the same logo, to a user outside of the GMC, and they could care less what it's made with. Why? Because they have the proper view, namely, all that matters is that it does it's job well.

@Toko - Softwrap is Digital Rights Management (DRM) software YYG included into GM7. In short, it handles the registration of the program, as well as making sure that people using the program have the registered version.
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#690 dadio

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 05:56 AM

A large chunk of the comments here are futile...
(Hell I've contributed to the wasted breath myself)
but the fact is GM8 is gonna have DRM *full stop*.

In my mind the "benefits" (cringe) of using Softwrap DRM outweigh the "benefits" (cringe) of using YoYoDRM.

(I'd hazard a guess that despite all the QQ, a solid 90%+ of users won't even have any problems with Softwrap!)

Also, really people, have a heart for those who have been waiting *eons* for the next version of GM.
GM8 has been stuck in planning/dev limbo on ultra slow burn for *wayyy* too long now.

"YES", "YES", "YES!"...
spare us the horror of another 6 months of excuses & delays & get this thing out there!

PS: I noticed just how negative my posts in this topic were. I just want to say that that's due to frustration at what seems to be a never-ending string of "trip-ups" at every turn with YoYo/GM. I was really looking forward to Comp5... I was really looking forward to GMMac... I was really expecting GM8 to have already been out 6 months... *shrugs*.
I'm *hopeful* that with "YES" in the lead & presumably only a few hours of vote time left, we'll be seeing GM8 *soon* - that makes me happy :)
Sandy, your mentioning that there's a Comp 5 on the horizon makes me very happy :)
I'm *hopeful* that GMMac eventually gets back on it's feet (I think in time, it will.)
I don't "hate" YoYo (or Sandy) - I just really "love" GM & want to see it do well.

Hope this can all be resolved now asap & I can get my teeth stuck into GM8 :)
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#691 Desert Dog

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 05:58 AM

"I don't like Softwrap, so even if their DRM works, I don't want it because it's made by them"

Except when softwrap screws up, and leaves you in the ditch, with deadlines. :) Enough to leave me cross, yes?

Edit:

In my mind the "benefits" (cringe) of using Softwrap DRM outweigh the "benefits" (cringe) of using YoYoDRM.

Au contraire, I'd like to see a yoyogames DRM myself. :)

Edited by Desert Dog, 18 December 2009 - 06:00 AM.

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#692 FredFredrickson

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 06:03 AM

My point was that, if Softwrap is was bad as people like Ampersand make it out to be, people woulnd't even consider it. But such is not the case

Are you sure?
If atomic bombs were as bad as people make them out to be, people wouldn't even consider them?
If sony's drm rootkit was such a bad idea, people wouldn't even consider it?

Comparing Softwrap to an atomic bomb now...? Yeah, taking the highly emotional, illogical comparison approach makes your argument much more meaningful.

And if Sony's rootkit were up for vote, and not Softwrap, I doubt the results would be the same. This might be mind-blowing, but Softwrap is not a rootkit.

A large chunk of the comments here are futile...

Revelations!
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#693 GearGOD

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 06:05 AM

Yeah, and Hitler was all about DRM.

Only 683 posts until this thread reached its logical end!

Edit:

Comparing Softwrap to an atomic bomb now...?

I was just drawing analogies to showing how absurd the notion of 'if x were bad people would not do it' is. The atomic bomb is certainly a valid analogy to that construct.

If you want to look at it from a technical standpoint, read into my previous posts in this thread.
What is the number of people that experienced problems caused by softwrap?
How much time and money did YoYo invest into using softwrap? greater 0
What is the number of people that purchased GM because softwrap was added?
What takes less time for the user; performing a valid registration or downloading and applying a crack?

What are tangible... or intangible for that matter benefits of having used softwrap with the above in mind?

Edited by GearGOD, 18 December 2009 - 06:21 AM.

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#694 dadio

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 06:41 AM

Revelations!


And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was DRM, and Hell followed with him.
Revelation, 6. 8

:)

Edited by dadio, 18 December 2009 - 06:46 AM.

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#695 mos4567

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 07:08 AM

http://gamemakerblog...-make-a-profit/


Humm, I knew YYG was not "large" but I was not aware that YYG was such a cash strapped company.

So to YYG I say, if this is a money thing and you need to go with softwrap because you can't afford to roll out your own DRM, that's fine. I only got upset because I was under the impression that you were better off financially, not that I thought you were a "big bad corporate enemy" I just assumed you were doing alright.

So if its true, I will take your softwrap and just be happy you are still around to release GM8.

Edited by mos4567, 18 December 2009 - 07:09 AM.

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#696 mcoot

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 07:21 AM

The good thing is that a SoftWrap release now gives them much more time to work on a system of their own. Better have a working DRM in a couple of years than a less tested DRM in 3 months.
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#697 oddbob0

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 08:28 AM

...but I was not aware that YYG was such a cash strapped company.


You go two years with no new product or suitable support for the one you do have whilst pumping money into an ad supported high-ish traffic website and try not to throw out cash hand over fist :)

The good thing is that a SoftWrap release now gives them much more time to work on a system of their own. Better have a working DRM in a couple of years than a less tested DRM in 3 months.


Except it's already been stated that they'll allocate the time and funds elsewhere. You're voting for an "indefinite" remember. Although y'know, see my previous point that this should have been sorted out long before GM8 hit RC, never mind just prior to release but it's not, hasn't been, so spilt milk etc...

YYG should learn from mistakes, not repeat them. I'm sure they need more people buying it to support its continual development ... make it easy for people to buy it! The price (IMO) is way low, an increase would not reduce the number of sales I'm sure from the loyal fan base here alone and I sure this fan base want to see GM developed more and understand that requires money. Even a hike to $35 is underpriced ... $40 to $50 is closer to what I'd expect to pay for a tool like this.


Which is why I think if they're not willing to do that (and I do think keeping a low price is a good idea to get the kids into it and making games), it'd make sense for a tiered option for more serious devs. Have I mentioned the tiered option lately and what a good idea I think it'd be? :)
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#698 masterens

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 11:38 AM

I have been having problems with softwrap, since I have lost internet connection for a long time, and everytime I started up my PC I had to reinstall gm because there was a connection problem and I wouldn't start up untill I reinstalled. But not a problem, I got connection now.
I say YES
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#699 ursus

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 02:17 PM

Me too, I voted Yes and I want to change my vote to No, but I can't. I voted yes because my son asked for the Pro version of GM8 for Xmas. He is really good with GM7 and that's what he put on his list. He won't get his wish, he will accept it (blame Santa!).

Regardless of this softwrap being unreliable and simply not acceptable and an aggravation, frankly, YYG developing its own system is just bizarre and will have tons of other issues (been there done that...). However, YYG asking for money with such procedures seems really damaging to itself. It seemed originally to be a community-oriented/educational entity. Is this a for profit company? that changes things for me). Sure there are costs, but with so many devoted users you'd think they will gladly volunteer paying (I would), maybe more than the $20 fee, as long as there are no hassles. So, this DRM is doing YYG a great disservice.

Please deduct one vote for the 'yes' and add one to 'no'. Thank you.
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#700 Zee

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 02:31 PM

I voted not to include Softwrap, and here's why I made my choice. Keep in mind I am speaking only from opinion, and not in direct response to anybody so far.

Softwrap is Digital Rights Management software, and as I understand it, being on both sides of the argument in different cases. I feel, for example, music recorded from sources like radio or streaming websites is acceptable for personal use should you desire to do so. The media industry has time and time again warned us that doing this will destroy the industry overnight. I hardly believe that my watching The Mighty Morphing Power Rangers at 4 PM after school on a tape when I was six doomed Saban Entertainment and Fox TV to failure. And I continue to believe that my interest of getting low quality audio from streaming or live broadcasts will not doom their respective companies. The argument that it reduces sales is often brought around with line graphs of declining sales, and then when you go to check the sources, they're never from a neutral party, but some pet company owned by the arguing company. My own judgement, which is by my own opinion and views, is to see if said company is still there or not. Power Rangers is about to go through a re-release in 2010 to start over and begin milking the cash cow again from children again, and Fox is a media monster that spawned several other cable-only channels. They seem to be doing fine, and I feel my taping and re-watching of those old shows never hurt them enough to collapse. In fact, every company I have ever 'pirated' from by taping a showing or recording a song on the radio has never gone under. In fact, quite the opposite in my experience. Westwood Studios and Pumpkin Studios are long dead, while they had the two games I was a frenzied fan of (Red Alert 2 and Warzone 2100 respectively).

On the other side of it, there is a certain respect one should have for software based on the depth of quality it brings. In my experience there is only ONE redeeming value to DRM and that is the same value as that of a screen door instead of an open doorway. Good people stay out of my house unless I let them in, they don't need the screen door to know that. They have good manners. Now the same can be said for bad people, they will come in if it's a screen door or a steel wall, but it may not even be through a door, but they will march right on in once somebody figures out how. As such, there is always these two kinds of people, the same in any argument of legal measure. Again, this is my experience, as I've been involved in a psychology experiment or two on just such subject matter, and the results always show there is at least some percentage who are good and who are bad. The real value of DRM in my eyes is to keep the good people honest. A good person may not enter my house without my permission, but they may duck in to peek if I'm there or not. While they're inside, they may see my sandwich on the table and take it. Had I the screen door, they may have thought twice about checking on me, and I may still have my sandwich. Now, this unfortunately brings me to my point of taking it away again, because now that there is a door available, something to stop the Bad Guy, now he'll stand there, draw attention to my door, and bring his friends to break into my room to steal my sandwich. Now instead of just the one guy who walked in and took my sandwich, there's ten guys breaking down my door, and telling people how. So, not only is my sandwich that day taken, but people continue to steal my sandwich as people now have a challenge to undergo to 'earn' my sandwich. This doesn't entitle them to it, but now its become more of a game.

In the juncture of YoYoGames taking up Game Maker, a change was made in my eyes. It stopped being a community project and turned into a product. This is ok, it's a natural evolution. But the issue is that with more advertising and publicity, there is more people coming. More good people, and more bad people. It also means more money to turn the DRM into a bigger game. Already, I'm willing to bet, there are people waiting for Game Maker 8 to come out, and whatever DRM is comes packed with, will be broken with vim and vigor and inside two weeks, you can go to any popular prirating site and grab it.

That said, Softwrap is a company that banks its business on people being dishonest good guys, as bad people will still get in, and it founds itself on a false principle.

Softwrap protects products from piracy and allows publishers to offer...


The emphasis is theirs and theirs alone. Because its a lie. As I'm sure a lot of the members here know, but won't tell, Softwrap didn't do anything, except deliver a product that had erratic behavior and often reset itself. As a person who's paid for the software three times now, and I warn all of you now to never use hotmail as your primary e-mail, and likely to pay a fourth time, it bothers me that a person who stole it gets better uptime than I do. For that reason, I say forgo the DRM altogether, and focus on delivering a product that we can trust. After all, if it's easier, cheaper, and less hassle-free to go pirate the software than to buy it, what reason does the already morally dubious rationalize to have to pay for it. People think they are entitled to software. I hate to say it that way, but its how they see it.

All in all, forgo it, please, and give the good guys less of a headache with these erratic DRM failures. And once more, these are opinions, I've backed them up as much as I feel inclined to, and will not argue with anybody about them. These are just my thoughts on the matter.
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