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Cage Match 218


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Poll: Cage Match 218 (71 member(s) have cast votes)

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#1 Ablach Blackrat

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 06:14 PM

The results of last week's Match are as follows...

Beacon by ChevyRay.....48
The World's Most Annoying Game by Micco.....13

_________________________________


Cage Match 218 (ends 10th of October)

Beacon by ChevyRay
Yoyo Games Link
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Trapdoor Below by Telchar
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#2 Domino

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 07:16 PM

TB, easily. Beacon isn't even a game.

#3 Alpha Man

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 10:02 PM

I voted for Trapdoor Below. Rarely do you see Roguelikes on the GMC... even rarer, actually, that it's a Graphical Roguelike. It's an interesting experience to play through, even though it could use some more features (more floors, saving/loading, less hunger-related deaths).

Beacon, on the other hand... "Art games" are commonplace. Where some of them succeed, Beacon does not; It tries to feel "alone", yet there are various creatures. It tries to look like a cave, yet there are spikes and other unorthodox obstacles. It tries to be a game... But there's nothing to do aside from waiting for the titular object, and doing the occasional platforming segment. Adding onto this, the scaled-up pixelated graphics, and there was no immersion whatsoever. Granted, the game was said to be made within the timespan of 48 hours, and this could contribute to the shortcomings. But the amount of time invested into a game is no excuse for the quality -- it's not like ChevyRay was forced to make it in that timeframe, after all.
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#4 erty906

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 01:04 AM

But the amount of time invested into a game is no excuse for the quality -- it's not like ChevyRay was forced to make it in that timeframe, after all.

Yes he was. It was made for Ludum Dare.

I voted for Beacon.
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#5 brod

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 01:46 AM

Trapdoor, definitely.
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#6 Alpha Man

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 04:12 AM

But the amount of time invested into a game is no excuse for the quality -- it's not like ChevyRay was forced to make it in that timeframe, after all.

Yes he was. It was made for Ludum Dare.

... He was not, in any way, limited to 48 hours of development time. It was a concious decision he made to stop developing it after that point. He even sort-of updated the game afterwards. What are you talking about?

Regardless, the general point was, the lack of time spent on the game is no reason to sing praise of the game's current condition. To consider it a factor in voting for one game over another is absurd; I wouldn't know if you took it into account because all your post says is "I voted for Beacon."
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#7 erty906

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 04:40 AM

Well, obviously he won't change the game's concept in an update. That would be pretty dumb.

I voted for Beacon because I enjoyed it a lot and also because I dislike RPGs.
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#8 ChevyRay

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 06:55 AM

TB, easily. Beacon isn't even a game.

I have to admit, it's true. Caught red-handed!

Beacon isn't really a game at all. I think Jordan Magnusun's review on Necessary Games said it best:

The Beacon is brilliant from the perspective of gameplay. It at once creates a seamless way to control the game's pace and provide the player with challenge. So [ChevyRay] can create the slow and methodical, challenge-less first levels, and by simply manipulating The Beacon the fast paced and challenging final levels. The challenge retains an incredible integrity with the game's aesthetic and themes, because every challenge stems directly from The Beacon itself, which is the game.


It's not that it's not a game, you guys, it's just a game with a very specific incentive which has aspects that become nearly invisible when you encase it in the context with which most games are percieved. To put it simpler, if you've eaten apples and oranges all your life, and somebody gives you your very first banana and you don't like it -- this doesn't mean the banana isn't a fruit, because it is. Of course, that doesn't mean you're gonna like it -_-

the lack of time spent on the game is no reason to sing praise of the game's current condition.

Why not? The praise from people who enjoyed the game both makes me feel good and has given me incentive to pursue improving the game even more. No one said the 48-hours excused the game's quality (which you are the only person to openly complain about so far) but it is definitely a good reason. Now that I know the game is both enjoyable and (more importantly) a new and exciting experience for so many people, I've been heavily considering giving it a huge graphical update, improving the game's pace and expanding on the world a bit, and submitting it to the Independent Games Festival in San Francisco. If it weren't for the overwhelmingly positive reaction I've already had from the game, I probably wouldn't be nearly as inclined to do this. So I have to disagree, and say that there definitely is a positive side to showing your support! Successful indie games (not that I think Beacon will become one) such as World of Goo started out quite similar actually, originally being a much smaller game created for the Experimental Gameplay Project. It was a rapid-prototype, created in order to explore different types of gameplay quickly, and all the positive support it recieved as a result ended up in a full-fledged game that is one of the most fun and well-designed PC and Wii games.


Ba-zing!


This Trapdoor Below is pretty cool, by the way! I love old-school graphical roguelikes like this. It reminds me of the games I used to make all the time when I was in high school, I loved messing around with all kinds of different RPG stats, status effects and things like that. It's good to see online highscores implemented too.

I would be happy to lose the cage match to this game, as it feels like an old-school roleplaying adventure from my own heart.

Edited by ChevyRay, 05 October 2009 - 07:07 AM.

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#9 DPoole

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 12:08 PM

Regardless, the general point was, the lack of time spent on the game is no reason to sing praise of the game's current condition.

Why?

Isn't rapid (awesome) game development a commendable skill?

By the way, I vote bacon- I mean, Beacon. Everything about it appealed to me.
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#10 death-droid

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 12:41 PM

I voted for Beacon, I loved the style of art and the overall atmosphere of the game and of course that it was made in 48 hours.
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#11 ramses12

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 01:35 PM

I vote for Beacon. The complexity of Trapdoor Below is rare but its lack of interactivity and gameplay makes it a game that consists only of the amount of possibilities and interactions. Beacon on the other hand, even if slow-paced, makes the player enter it's given atmosphere and creates a realistic impression of slow pace.
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#12 BxdLunch

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 11:18 PM

Successful indie games (not that I think Beacon will become one) such as World of Goo started out quite similar actually, originally being a much smaller game created for the Experimental Gameplay Project. It was a rapid-prototype, created in order to explore different types of gameplay quickly, and all the positive support it recieved as a result ended up in a full-fledged game that is one of the most fun and well-designed PC and Wii games.

Personally, I think beacon is quite capable of becoming a successful indie game. All the game needs is maybe some different areas and environments and it could be a great classic. You could even add little costume pieces like in jumper 3 and I think you could probably get a huge following.

Please|ChevyRay|Just trust me...

Edited by BxdLunch, 06 October 2009 - 10:53 PM.

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#13 overboy

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 04:24 AM

Please|ChevyRay|Just trust me...


Har har har... game pun.

Yeah, voted for Beacon, it was cute.
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#14 ChevyRay

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 04:30 AM

That technically wasn't a pun, actually :rolleyes:

Thanks for the votes guys <3


EDIT: Oh yeah it's you from the Poppenkast. Hai dude!

Edited by ChevyRay, 06 October 2009 - 04:31 AM.

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#15 makerofthegames

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 05:29 PM

I voted for Trapdoor, because Beacon was annoying.

Edited by makerofthegames, 06 October 2009 - 05:30 PM.

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#16 Syphilis

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 05:58 PM

I think I'm going to go beacon... Rouge-like games aren't my forte really, just as some people here obviously don't like "little indie art" games.
Trapdoor below was pretty fun none the less, but I think I'm going with Beacon - a game I thought was really beautiful, fully realized, and completely void of anything it doesn't need (which is a really good thing).

Both games are pretty good, but I just love Beacon.
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#17 weckar

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 07:47 PM

OKay, before I read the topic I found the games to be of equal value, much more so that the previous match (seriously?). But, I went with trapdoor, solely for the reason that I won't be able to stand another week of ChevyRay telling the same excuses to people who 'don't get' his game.

And, when in doubt: vote underdog
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#18 BxdLunch

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 10:52 PM

Wow, this is the closest cage match I've ever seen! Go Beacon! :rolleyes:
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#19 ChevyRay

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 11:23 PM

OKay, before I read the topic I found the games to be of equal value, much more so that the previous match (seriously?). But, I went with trapdoor, solely for the reason that I won't be able to stand another week of ChevyRay telling the same excuses to people who 'don't get' his game.


This is a pretty rude thing to say to someone who has been only polite thus far, and also was rather complimenting to the opposing game in the match. If you think I'm making excuses, then feel free to explain why you think so, but being just outright ill-behaved because you don't like or understand what I'm saying is not the best route, my friend.

Why are my explanations so unbearable, bringing people to cast me in such a hateful way? I'm honestly curious, because as far as I'm concerned, I've done nothing to warrant this hate. Why not just be like, "I preferred the other game, Beacon wasn't my thing"? If you honestly can't think of an argument to my explanations of Beacon, then just admit it to yourself. And then go ahead and vote for the other game, because by all means it DESERVES it.

I don't get this treatment anywhere else on the internet, just the Game Maker Community.
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#20 Alpha Man

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 01:10 AM

Why are my explanations so unbearable, bringing people to cast me in such a hateful way? I'm honestly curious, because as far as I'm concerned, I've done nothing to warrant this hate.


As far as I'm concerned this is the "Game Maker Community" and I see no reason for such a creation to be in any sort of Poll against a legitimate game.

You have to understand the attitude you have, here. You posted the quote of my very-obvious joke review of Beacon in YOUR Game Topic, acting as if I've not only seriously insulted your game (and you possibly) but also as if you had to repeat it in your topic. If I had to pick a word for that, it would be unprofessional -- same for the responses in your topic you got for posting it. Even in this topic you took a quote of mine, misinterpreted it and then proceeded to reply, ending with a confident "Ba-zing!". If it matters any, this is coming from a person who commonly reads your blog and enjoyed Skullpogo.

In my eyes (and maybe in the eyes of others in this topic) Beacon can not be considered a game in the same sense as Trapdoor Below; That is, having actual gameplay. Your excuse that it is an "art game" is possibly a valid one, but we are not comparing art games in this topic -- rather, the fundamental aspects of games themselves, which would include gameplay and playability. In this topic the people playing the games are other Game Makers, who most likely know the effort it takes to program a complete game from scratch. Your game is almost completely devoid of gameplay and content, which, while the artistic merits are arguable themselves, this fact makes it impossible for me to vote for Beacon.

Perhaps you have indeed reached your target audience... That's great, there are surely many people among the internet who are ready for an atmospheric experience. Your victory is commendable; You've succeeded in what you set out to do. But this is the Game Maker Community -- we make games, play games. When a game with very little content comes around, what kind of responses would you expect? I don't think anyone is being hateful here, that's just the way I look at the situation. I don't think it takes a genius to see that Beacon is going to end up getting in the Cage Match Hall Of Fame (it only needs to hold its higher ground in this topic and win the next one), but for people like me who don't think that it even belongs in a Poll like this, it's quite saddening in a way. Maybe if Beacon relied not on artistic qualities but instead on innovative features and fun gameplay, my replies would be quite different.
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#21 Necromian

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 01:57 AM

You posted the quote of my very-obvious joke review of Beacon

Oh :rolleyes:
I guess you just redeemed yourself a bit there. Couldn't you have made it a bit more obvious though?

Now please just tell me your Tower of Heaven review is a joke too.
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#22 ChevyRay

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 02:09 AM

Ahh now we're talking, I'm glad you took the time to form a response directly to me actually. This is better.

You have to understand the attitude you have, here.


I'm quite aware of the attitude I have. How you interpret it isn't always an accurate representation of how it was intended.

You posted the quote of my very-obvious joke review of Beacon in YOUR Game Topic, acting as if I've not only seriously insulted your game (and you possibly) but also as if you had to repeat it in your topic.


I thought it was rather humorous, and got a good laugh out of your review. I actually posted that review over at Poppenkast too, it was pretty awesome. There is no legitimate wrong in posting a review of Beacon in the game's topic.

Your excuse that it is an "art game" is possibly a valid one, but we are not comparing art games in this topic -- rather, the fundamental aspects of games themselves, which would include gameplay and playability. In this topic the people playing the games are other Game Makers, who most likely know the effort it takes to program a complete game from scratch. Your game is almost completely devoid of gameplay and content, which, while the artistic merits are arguable themselves, this fact makes it impossible for me to vote for Beacon.


I've already made several posts in this and the previous cage match that use large elaborate descriptions and reviews from people to disprove this point, yet you keep just saying it, seemingly without wanting to use any evidence or examples to back up your point. If you want to convince me or others that Beacon is devoid of gameplay, I think trying to explain yourself is much more powerful than just outright demanding it and expecting me to stand by and not say anything. I think it's just fair for me to respond as an intellectual to back up my case, and I'd honestly be willing to dispute it further, but the immediate reaction to such posts is almost always just dismissive and hateful without reason.

I have stated nowhere that Beacon is "just an art game", or used that as an excuse at any point. I have given you valid and thought-out reasons as to why Beacon IS a game, and given examples from myself and other professional game reviewers that agree on this point. I have no excuse, I have what I think is a very strong argument, and if you're going to stand up against this argument, do so at eye-level with me and explain your reasoning. If not, do the respectable thing and back down, don't resort to insults and empty retorts.

But this is the Game Maker Community -- we make games, play games. When a game with very little content comes around, what kind of responses would you expect? I don't think anyone is being hateful here, that's just the way I look at the situation. I don't think it takes a genius to see that Beacon is going to end up getting in the Cage Match Hall Of Fame (it only needs to hold its higher ground in this topic and win the next one), but for people like me who don't think that it even belongs in a Poll like this, it's quite saddening in a way. Maybe if Beacon relied not on artistic qualities but instead on innovative features and fun gameplay, my replies would be quite different.


Fair enough, I can see where you're coming from. It's just a cage match, though, and it's not like there's anything at stake. It's all just for fun, so what if Beacon ends up in the hall of fame? There are plenty of games that I don't like at all in the hall of fame, but this doesn't bother me. Those games represent qualities that the voters at that particular time liked and could associate with. I think that's what makes these kinds of little events kind of cool. But in the end, it's just a little contest on a website in some small pocket of the internet, so I'm not gonna get myself in a huss over it.

Beacon, on the other hand, is very personal to me, and its innovations and gameplay merits are something that I find enjoyable to discuss and debate. This is why I am here posting, because I want to know what the gamers who like it think, the gamers who don't like it think. When someone claims that Beacon does not have gameplay or innovations, I respond with examples of why it does, because I want to know if they're just saying that in insult because they didn't like it, or if they can actually formulate reasons for such a bold statement.

I think it's stimulating. If you don't like reading it, just skip by, I haven't preached to anybody yet, and my game is intentionally as far from being pretentious as I could make it. It's not a victory, it's just a fun little game I made in hopes that I could give something fresh to gamers who want it.

Ba-zing!

If you were wondering about that, "Ba-zing!" is a silly remark intended to show that I don't take all the discussion too seriously. It was my way of punctuating a rather drawn out explanation defending a point that didn't even really need defended to begin with, to show that I don't take myself or my ideas too seriously, I just enjoy the discussion and debate for the fun and inspiration it brings :rolleyes: It was meant as a self-humbling remark, not an insulting or snideful one, so I apologize if it was taken that way.

Edited by ChevyRay, 07 October 2009 - 02:12 AM.

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#23 Vizorslash

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 06:56 AM

I guess I might as well put my two cents in.

I would consider Beacon more of an "interactive experience" as dadio said in Beacon's topic. It is still a game as such, but the focus (In My Opinion) is not the gameplay but the atmosphere/story. I also believe the Cage Match shouldn't be won because a game has a better storyline, or has awesome gameplay but because the whole package is good. Beacon has excellent graphics, and has a good "atmosphere", but to my opinion is lacking in the gameplay department. Credit to ChevyRay for those as well as the music, they were quite good. That said, if it was my kind of "experience". I think it also deserved a

I think, that because Trapdoor Below has better gameplay and an average story, as well a a good idea (Roguelike), it deserves to win this round.
If Beacon had more gameplay or a (good) storyline, it should win. I understand it was only made in 48 hours so a storyline probably was cutting it fine, however if it had an engaging storyline I think it would boost it up in my eyes.

On that point, when I played Beacon I found it not really exciting fun or boring but in the middle because of the lack of gameplay, but it was a well made game nevertheless. (Also, I am not a gameplay freak, I can overlook bad or limiting gameplay for good storylines and experiences.)

A suggestion for Beacon, to add to the experience (I'm calling it that) would maybe be skeletons of others who died in the caves. It would add to the suspense in my books.

Yes, you may be a Proffessional Game Designer, but I'm a Professional Retard.
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#24 ChevyRay

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 07:43 AM

I actually liked the idea of adding skeletons. I wanted to add in a sort of secret area where you could find a little cavern where another person had huddled up and died, and the skeleton would be kind of lying there in a fetal position, but I never quite got around to adding that. Might be a feature I add in the extended edition if I decide to take it to IGF.

Oh, and I'm no professional game designer. I've worked on commercial games before, and I'm friends with industry game designers, but definitely not one myself. Maybe one day.

My next game(s) will be much more action packed, though, that's a promise! Beacon was sort of just exploring some new territory for me, but it was almost certainly a one-time thing. I love fast-paced games with epic storylines, and plenty of visual-audio feedback, it's definitely more my style. So for those of you who were disappointed with Beacon after playing Skullpogo, don't worry :D it won't become a trend, haha.

Edited by ChevyRay, 07 October 2009 - 07:44 AM.

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#25 JugemDWK

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 09:47 AM

Well, all this gameplay arguing, er, discussion piqued my interest enough to make me play Beacon. I don't know how anyone who plays this to the end cannot call it a game. It clearly is a game, and does have a fair amount of gameplay. The only thing is that this "gameplay" is mostly all in the last half of the game. Or maybe our BC water is just poisoning our minds. :D

The first half is mostly just a bit of easy walking/jumping. If I had only played this first bit of the game, then I might also have thought that Beacon lacked gameplay. But the pace picks up, and ultimately starts becoming a bit challenging (and more of a "game"). The gameplay pretty much solely consists of running and jumping over gaps and spikes while avoiding darkness. There aren't enemies, but this game doesn't need them. In fact, enemies would probably ruin it and take the focus away from what really matters. It's got a fairly strong puzzle presence as well, because you have to figure out when to advance forward (or which path to take), and when to stay put and wait/hope for the beacon to come.

Having said all that, I do think that there is room for improvement. I didn't get much of a sense of progression when playing. It just felt like the same room after same room. I think if you added a bit of variation... maybe some new feature in each new room. Different ground tiles, (more) different crystal types, maybe even another type of obstacle or two... Although after a bit more thought, more variety like that might also change the "feeling" too much. It just might be in the simplicity that this game's charm lies. Anyway, I loved the ending. It was completely unexpected, but very amusing.

Edited by JugemDWK, 07 October 2009 - 09:56 AM.

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#26 ChevyRay

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 10:07 AM

Totally, the game could really use more variation. I would like to actually mix up the tiles a lot more, make it so the environment gradually gets sort of danker and more mossy as you progress and get deeper into the confines of the cavern. That was actually on my to-do list when I was working on it for Ludum Dare, but I spent too much time testing the last couple levels and then bug-testing it. I totally agree that variety is needed, especially to improve the initial few areas, which have a much slower pace. I don't think the lack of variety is part of the charm, really, I think it's just not always immediately obvious because most of the area is hidden by darkness. But it's something I will definitely touch up when I get a day off sometime here.

The last level itself is the biggest puzzle of the game, like you said. It progresses from atmosphere/casuality, and eventually ramps up into fast/challenging puzzle platformer, as intended. Of course, the huge issue with this is players quit right off the bat because of the slow pace of the game. Making the environment more interesting, giving it more variety, would definitely be a good way to possibly help drag some of those players in.

Excellent advice (:
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#27 DPoole

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 11:13 AM

Chevy's attitude is brilliant. I can't see why anyone'd have a problem with it.
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#28 weckar

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 03:13 PM

Okay, to be more clear: I just don't find it to be good sportsmanship to defend your game in any way in the Cage Match topic, let the games speak for themselves. I wouldn't take it otherwise from you nor from anyone else.
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#29 abif

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 04:01 PM

Oviously beacon has better graphics but i had more fun playing Trapdoor so im going with Trapdoor
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#30 Telchar

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 05:02 PM

Nice to see my creation here :D

Only one or two voters decide the winner.
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