75 replies to this topic

[rinkuhero]

One thing to realize is that what you mentioned are treaties, not laws -- they have no legal power in individual countries, they're just agreements between countries. So what really matters is the laws in particular countries, even though many of those laws can be based on treaties. The second treaty you mentioned was relatively recent ('96) and led in the US to the DMCA; in different countries it may have different implementations / incarnations.

Anyway, as KCLC said many times, copyright is complicated and not really something that can be discussed here, exactly because it varies so much from country to country, and not everyone here is in the US. I only really know about how copyright works in the US.

Okay, so what if I managed to get your source file (be it I broke into your house and stole it from your HDD).

I register copyright and sell it for 1000USD.

Then you sue me, what happens then?

One reason I think no registered copyright is like no copyright at all.

you don't need to break into my house to get it, game maker is fully decompile-able and you could get it from the game itself. i don't know why you'd need the source to sell it though, you could certainly sell it without the source. but that kind of thing happens all the time, people often steal the works of others and sell it; registered copyright doesn't really help in such cases, especially if the people are in different countries. all you really need is proof of prior publication (which is relatively easy to obtain)

Edited by rinkuhero, 04 June 2009 - 09:41 PM.

[NakedPaulToast]

You can't sue for copyright infringement or get an order from a judge to make somebody stop using your work unless your work is registered either within the three months after your work is first published, or before the infringement first occurs. Source

You most certainly can, however what you can sue for is limited.

Source Copyright.gov

If registration is made within three months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney’s fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner.

[KC LC]

You can't sue for copyright infringement or get an order from a judge to make somebody stop using your work unless your work is registered either within the three months after your work is first published, or before the infringement first occurs.

This kind of "half truth" is exactly why we discourage copyright discussions here. Most members don't understand it, and are happy to spread misinformation. And some of the online information sites are plain wrong.

Most things members need to know are covered in my pinned topic.

2. To sue for copyright infringement (in the USA), you must register your copyright first.

2a. If you register AFTER the theft occurs, you can only receive money for actual damages, such as lost sales.
2b. If you registered BEFORE the theft occurred, you may also receive extra money for statutory damages and lawyer's fees.

[cogexmod5]

I know the price of the game is now 10$ what was it when released?

Now it is $5 and when it was released it was $20.

[cogexmod5]

With this game, did you need a business liscence or something like that to sell it?

[Gamer_X]

Thanks for sharing this info, snailfox and also rinkuhero. I guess BTMicro doesn't have copy protection like Steam, for example. And talking about Steam, why don't you try to sell your games there (and other game portals) ? Steam has 25 million customers; its said they have 70 % of the market, and (i'm checking on a daily basis for aprox. 2 to 3 weeks now), they have always from 1 million to 2.4 million customers connected anytime, any day. I'm starting to make a game and really intend to sell it there and eventually in other places, and everything i've read relating to them was good, like they make good deals, and have dedicated personnel in case you have problems and even a marketing guy. I don't have any affiliation with them (Steam) except for being a satisfied customer.

[wa1do_13]

@GamerX
It's not so much about snailfox wanting his game on Steam as it is about Steam wanting snailfox's game. Steam won't just accept and put up games on request, or else there'd be a ton of shovelware on it- they're very selective, and as far as I know there is yet to be a Game Maker game on the service. Not that it's impossible, just unlikely.

[Gamer_X]

@wa1do_13

Yes, i've heard about it. I don't know snailfox and rinkuhero games, but i suppose they have good gameplay (no offense) because they have a relative sucess. The problem might be if they don't have enough good graphics to make a good impression or speed issues because of being made in/running game maker. I've seen the games made by the community, and the majority don't have good enough graphics to be sold as commercial. I've seen an excelent SHMUP (very good gameplay) but didn't have good enough graphics, and another SHMUP which IMO didn't have good enough gameplay but might get away with that because it has excellent graphics. I won't give names of course. My intention is not to talk bad about games here but just state imparcial (as possible) opinions. I know how hard it is to make good graphics and good game play. I'm also not saying that good graphics alone is enough.

Edited by Gamer_X, 10 July 2010 - 12:35 PM.

[hpapillon]

Your answer doesn't seem to have anything to do with the person you're responding to.

There are many, many, many, many games for sale in the world that are not accepted onto Steam, even if they have nice graphics or run fast. There is no arbitrary bar where they say "Okay, if your game is THIS good, we'll take it." Steam is not an open market. It doesn't matter what your games are made with or what they look like, you can't just decide to sell your games there, because it's not your decision that matters. I know a lot of people who make a fulltime living selling games and can't get onto Steam. (As mentioned elsewhere, I have not personally tried, therefore I am not an example.)

Also, you look a bit silly making statements about games if you don't even know what they are.

[rinkuhero]

there are also a lot of games on steam with poorer graphics than many game maker games.

here are some examples:

http://store.steampo....com/app/29140/
http://store.steampo...d.com/app/1510/
http://store.steampo....com/app/11360/
http://store.steampo....com/app/29160/
http://store.steampo....com/app/33680/
http://store.steampo....com/app/58400/
http://store.steampo....com/app/48900/

if you saw those games on the forums here, they wouldn't stand out graphically, they'd look like any other game here. yet most of them are doing pretty well commercially on steam.

i didn't include any 'classics' that have bad graphics just due to their age, like x-com and doom, but they're there too.

Edited by rinkuhero, 12 July 2010 - 06:18 PM.

[Gamer_X]

I might have gotten a bit to far, sorry if i offended anyone, it really wasn't my intention. My point is that there are dozens of indie games on Steam, (on the indie section, 70), so being indie should not be a problem, and i know that its Steam that decides to accept or not the game. I mentioned, graphics, speed and game play as i suspect are the preponderant factors of acceptance.

hpapillon, the game gates probably have at least some relatively objective means/standards for accepting games, although i have to agree that game play and graphics have some kind of subjectivity. These big game portals can't rely on subjectivity alone, and its a lot of money in stake (english is not my native language, but i think the expression is correct). They want to sell games and have profit, so i believe they have good will, but with quality. What is quality for them, is what we are discussing here, and again, no offense , please, to anyone. I don't believe in this case in any conspiracy or favoritism, really (except maybe for games made with game maker, read next). Doesn't make sense from a business point of view, at least not for the indie or casual market.

And maybe for Steam specifically, being made with game maker might be a problem too (but i can't prove that), for more than one reason i suspect (speed, easier to hack, no respect/being viewed as intrinsically for/to noobies, etc). I am not aware of any game maker game being sold there. Note that there are games sold there that could be made with game maker: all Pop Cap games, including the successfull Plants vs Zombies, some adventures/mistery games, some of the indie and casual games, sucessfull card games like Magic the Gathering and Spectromancer, and others.

rinkuhero, i woudn't full agree with your list, except for Between and maybe Turba. When i think of bad graphics on Steam i think of Flotilla (the ships). IMO one thing is bad graphics, another is simple (but still looks good) and/or stylistic. The very few IMO ugly games sold on Steam probably have average to good game play at least to compensate for the graphics - i didn't play any of them though. Between seems to be a very very unique game, one more reason to get accepted. Sure, quite some games here on the community are also unique, but did the creators try to sell them ?

X-com and Doom are very old games, so its not fair to compare their graphics, and both are absurdly good in game play. X-com 1 is my favorite game of all time, genre and platform, ever.

Edited by Gamer_X, 13 July 2010 - 12:41 AM.

[hpapillon]

My point is that there are dozens of indie games on Steam, (on the indie section, 70), so being indie should not be a problem

70. Now compare that to how many games there are for sale out there. BigFishGames releases multiple downloadable games EVERY DAY. 70 is tiny. It is not impossible for indie games to get onto steam, no. Obviously, some do. But there is NO GUARANTEE that any game will get there.

hpapillon, the game gates probably have at least some relatively objective means/standards for accepting games, although i have to agree that game play and graphics have some kind of subjectivity. These big game portals can't rely on subjectivity alone, and its a lot of money in stake (english is not my native language, but i think the expression is correct). They want to sell games and have profit, so i believe they have good will, but with quality. What is quality for them, is what we are discussing here, and again, no offense , please, to anyone. I don't believe in this case in any conspiracy or favoritism, really (except maybe for games made with game maker, read next). Doesn't make sense from a business point of view, at least not for the indie or casual market.

What they care about is what sells. But graphics and running speed don't determine that. Have you actually dealt with any portals, or talked to anyone who has, or read Steam's instructions for submitting?

One thing many of them will first ask is "Are we already selling any game that is similar to this? If so, how well is it selling?" If they have a similar game that's a smash hit, they will be keen to get a game that's like it, in the hopes of it making more sales. BFG, for example, is thrilled to get just about any Hidden Object Game because they've been selling like hotcakes for the past year, even crappy ones. But if a previous similar game tanked, then they may not be interested even if the new game looks great. It might even be a great game but a bad match for their audience.

Steam, otoh, is much more picky about what games they accept and has been known to turn games down because they are similar to a game that's selling okay but not blazingly hot, claiming that they already HAVE a game like that and they don't want a new game competing with it.

Another way portals determine what games they think will sell is by whether people have actually requested that they carry it. I had a game rejected from BFG (because they figured no one would buy a game full of reading) that they later turned around and carried because players were complaining that they wanted to buy it. Similarly, if ENOUGH people beg Steam to sell something, they'll try to sell it no matter what it looks like, because it appears to have a built-in audience. If you want to buy a particular game on Steam, don't write the developer and ask them to put it there, write Steam and ask THEM.

And another way STEAM determines what they want to sell is by public buzz. They request that applicants send in mainstream reviews and news articles talking about your game, because if your game is a hot property, they want to sell it.

These factors can override their personal tastes.... but if you don't meet any of these criteria then yes, it comes down to a purely subjective choice.

And maybe for Steam specifically, being made with game maker might be a problem too (but i can't prove that), for more than one reason i suspect (speed, easier to hack, no respect/being viewed as intrinsically for/to noobies, etc).

... once again, this sounds like you've been spending too much time reading the GMC and not dealing with the rest of the world. Why on earth would they care about most of those things? They'll care about speed if the particular game you've written can't run up to scratch, obviously, but nobody buying the game is going to know what it was made with, and most of them won't have ever heard of GM anyway.

They're more likely to care about the game being too HARD to hack, and by that I mean - can it integrate with steamworks? If you can't interface with their wrapping/DRM then they can't sell you no matter how good your game is. There are a lot of tricky details that many game developers may need to recompile stuff for, and GM users may be totally unable to. If you can't hack your own game enough to make it work, game over.

Unfortunately I have no idea if it's possible to integrate GM games with steam because I don't think anyone's ever tried.

[Gamer_X]

70. Now compare that to how many games there are for sale out there. BigFishGames releases multiple downloadable games EVERY DAY. 70 is tiny. It is not impossible for indie games to get onto steam, no. Obviously, some do. But there is NO GUARANTEE that any game will get there.

I know that. I never said there is a guarantee that you will sell games on Steam or other portals, on the contrary, they are very selective. 70 on indie and 392 on casual genre with some intersection of course.

What they care about is what sells. But graphics and running speed don't determine that. Have you actually dealt with any portals, or talked to anyone who has, or read Steam's instructions for submitting?

I've read what is publicly available for submitting. Officially they don't care about graphics, and what i said is that graphics alone is one factor. There are others that may counterbalance, as game play, appeal, price, and what you mentioned.

They'll care about speed if the particular game you've written can't run up to scratch,

Of course, and that's what i meant.

obviously, but nobody buying the game is going to know what it was made with, and most of them won't have ever heard of GM anyway.

Its not so much about the customer knowing how the game was developed, but Steam knowing, IMO, but i don't know if they ever officially rejected a game made with game maker because of that reason.

They're more likely to care about the game being too HARD to hack, and by that I mean - can it integrate with steamworks? If you can't interface with their wrapping/DRM then they can't sell you no matter how good your game is. There are a lot of tricky details that many game developers may need to recompile stuff for, and GM users may be totally unable to. If you can't hack your own game enough to make it work, game over.

I know that. Except that integration with their wrapping/DRM is obrigatory, but with Steamworks is not. Many games there don't use Steamworks.

Unfortunately I have no idea if it's possible to integrate GM games with steam because I don't think anyone's ever tried.

If anyone never tried, its very bad. Integration with Steam software is made in C++. As game maker doesn't support C++, i don't know if its easy or not using DLLs.

Edited by Gamer_X, 13 July 2010 - 12:43 PM.

[andyforsaken]

Its not so much about the customer knowing how the game was developed, but Steam knowing, IMO, but i don't know if they ever officially rejected a game made with game maker because of that reason.

Nobody cares what engine you use to develop your game outside the GMC forum

Nobody cares if it's GM or Blitz Basic or Flash or whatever. What matters is the game itself, if it works and if it's fun to play for the audience you're selling to.

Edited by andyforsaken, 13 July 2010 - 03:04 PM.

[Mr.Chubigans]

I submitted a game I made, the Oil Blue, to Steam last month and then resubmitted again this month. On July 3rd they logged in to download the game, but I haven't heard anything since before or after that date.

Guess I'll just have to keep trying!

[Gamer_X]

Its not so much about the customer knowing how the game was developed, but Steam knowing, IMO, but i don't know if they ever officially rejected a game made with game maker because of that reason.

Nobody cares what engine you use to develop your game outside the GMC forum

Nobody cares if it's GM or Blitz Basic or Flash or whatever. What matters is the game itself, if it works and if it's fun to play for the audience you're selling to.

Good to know

I submitted a game I made, the Oil Blue, to Steam last month and then resubmitted again this month. On July 3rd they logged in to download the game, but I haven't heard anything since before or after that date.

Guess I'll just have to keep trying!

They probably were very busy with the Holiday/Summer mega promotion. Never give up ! After all the hard work...

Edited by Gamer_X, 13 July 2010 - 04:06 PM.