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Ways To Make Money With Your Games!


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#1 rinkuhero

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 01:15 PM

Proof that it works!!! Here (USD = US dollars $$$! :( ):

Posted Image

Okay!!! Here's a way to make money with your games!

First, you must be at least 18 and have experience making games! I suggest you make great freeware games first! If you have made a free game with over 50,000 downloads, you could probably be successful selling games too!

Second, make a great game! Not just great by Game Maker standards, but a polished game that can compete with the games on sites like http://manifestogames.com!

Third, give your game a website and set up an e-commerce provider like Plimus, BMT-Micro, or eSellerate! They take around 10% of the sale price and in exchange do digital download, credit card transactions, and even mail you a check each month!

Fourth, market!!! There are many ways of marketing, like press releases, offering review copies to reviewers, advertising, forum posts, and hundreds more, use whichever work for your game!

Fifth, constantly learn from others who create also shareware games! A great site to learn from is http://indiegamer.com! Read almost everything on that forum, and ask questions when you're confused!

That's it!

(EDIT: I actually meant to place this in the distribution forum, feel free to move it there, moderators. Sorry for the mistake. Although it's also sort of a comment to the community about the flood of uninformed topics about making money with games in that forum :) )

(EDIT 2: Here's a real guide I wrote up, rather than a joke guide: http://studioeres.co...games-shareware)

(EDIT 3: As Tarik points out, keep in mind this was the work of a team, over a 6-month period, and probably less than minimum wage would have earned. There are people who make a living at this, but you will probably not make a living at it for your first game. I don't think anyone actually would, but just as a precautionary warning, don't quit your day job and decide to make money through Game Maker exclusively or anything.)

Edited by rinkuhero, 29 November 2008 - 07:17 PM.

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#2 Carnivac

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 01:47 PM

Second, make a great game! Not just great by Game Maker standards, but a polished game that can compete with the games on sites like http://manifestogames.com!


Right, I can't find a single game on that site I would actually pay money for, yet the indie games I would happily pay for have mostly been free anyways. I offered to give Ultimortal some money for Iji but he wouldn't take it even though that's the sort of game I would give £20 or so to own. I gave a a lil bit of money to Cactus and YMM for some things I can't remember exactly what for (was a while ago now) and they've made consistently good games.

How do you know if you've made a commercially viable indie game if you actually can't stand most of the indie games that are commercial? Or is that it? Do I have to make a game I hate? If that's so I may as well be pixelling for mobile phone companies again and detesting what was my hobby/outlet once more.

Maybe I can make just the one blatantly mainstream casual commercial game with quickly done bland photoshopped graphics just to get a lil bit of extra income. Heck I dunno.
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#3 rinkuhero

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 01:49 PM

Right, I can't find a single game on that site I would actually pay money for, yet the indie games I would happily pay for have mostly been free anyways. I offered to give Ultimortal some money for Iji but he wouldn't take it even though that's the sort of game I would give £20 or so to own. I gave a a lil bit of money to Cactus and YMM for some things I can't remember exactly what for (was a while ago now) and they've made consistently good games.

How do you know if you've made a commercially viable indie game if you actually can't stand most of the indie games that are commercial? Or is that it? Do I have to make a game I hate? If that's so I may as well be pixelling for mobile phone companies again and detesting what was my hobby/outlet once more.

Maybe I can make just the one blatantly mainstream casual commercial game with quickly done bland photoshopped graphics just to get a lil bit of extra income. Heck I dunno.


That's a good question/observation actually. I actually agree with you, but I think we're the exception, most people don't have as high standards, so by "great" I just meant something like "better than the average commercial indie game".

In the last few years I've only bought around 5 games. I used to buy many more when I was younger, perhaps I had lower standards then. I think it's also about resistance to addiction. When we first started playing games it was easy to become addicted to this game or that, but after we've played hundreds or thousands of games we develop an immunity to becoming addicted to particular games, causing us to see playing those games and buying them as less attractive than we used to. Today I wouldn't buy 90% of the games I bought when I was younger.

Edited by rinkuhero, 27 November 2008 - 01:55 PM.

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#4 Carnivac

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 02:01 PM

That's a good question/observation actually. I actually agree with you, but I think we're the exception, most people don't have as high standards, so by "great" I just meant something like "better than the average commercial indie game".


Fair enough. I felt my post might have come across a lil too bitter or fed up (been a rough week) and I know I'm perhaps more of a purist of the 8/16 bit era of gaming which is why my own projects don't tend to be anything revolutionary or creative but aim to be just solid gaming fun with (hopefully) well pixelled graphics that aim to recapture the feeling I used to get when playing a good well made 2D game as a kid back in the 80's and early 90's. And I think you're right in that most of the people buying these games don't really feel the same way and seem to look for different. I think the closest commercial game I've seen to what I would like is Noitu Love 2 which is of a high level of polish and has nice pixel art (although the overly cute style of the graphics, and the mouse control scheme turned me off the game completely I can still appreciate the quality of the work involved).
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#5 rinkuhero

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 02:10 PM

Fair enough. I felt my post might have come across a lil too bitter or fed up (been a rough week) and I know I'm perhaps more of a purist of the 8/16 bit era of gaming which is why my own projects don't tend to be anything revolutionary or creative but aim to be just solid gaming fun with (hopefully) well pixelled graphics that aim to recapture the feeling I used to get when playing a good well made 2D game as a kid back in the 80's and early 90's. And I think you're right in that most of the people buying these games don't really feel the same way and seem to look for different. I think the closest commercial game I've seen to what I would like is Noitu Love 2 which is of a high level of polish and has nice pixel art (although the overly cute style of the graphics, and the mouse control scheme turned me off the game completely I can still appreciate the quality of the work involved).


I agree, Noitu Love 2 is actually on my to-buy list, I knew I had to buy it when I first played the demo. The problem with commercial games like that (nostalgic, pixel-art based, etc.) though is that they have a harder time commercially, for a number of reasons. I think a lot of the reason casual games sell is that their audience is new to games, they don't yet have an immunity to being addicted by simplistic gameplay that other people have. But hopefully nostalgic-style games can still do well; my next game does use more pixel-art than my last, and has more of a retro feeling to its gameplay, although not as much as Noitu Love.

Although in general if you're going to make commercial games I feel it's just best to make the games you enjoy. People who make casual games they don't enjoy don't succeed as much as those developers who actually enjoy casual games, so it's probably a bad idea to make a game outside of your element, so to speak. I made a TD game because I played a lot of Starcraft TD mods and Flash TD games over the years and enjoy that sort of gameplay. My next game is Zelda-like because I enjoy that sort of gameplay too.

(So perhaps we could rephrase it like: think of the best indie games you've played (in your case, Noitu Love 2, etc.), and when you can make a game as good as those, or better, then you know it could be commercially viable.)

Edited by rinkuhero, 27 November 2008 - 02:45 PM.

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#6 Ebonic_and_Nightwisp

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 09:39 PM

Proof that it works!!! Here (USD = US dollars $$$! :lol: ):

Posted Image

Okay!!! Here's a way to make money with your games!

First, you must be at least 18 and have experience making games! I suggest you make great freeware games first! If you have made a free game with over 50,000 downloads, you could probably be successful selling games too!

Second, make a great game! Not just great by Game Maker standards, but a polished game that can compete with the games on sites like http://manifestogames.com!

Third, give your game a website and set up an e-commerce provider like Plimus, BMT-Micro, or eSellerate! They take around 10% of the sale price and in exchange do digital download, credit card transactions, and even mail you a check each month!

Fourth, market!!! There are many ways of marketing, like press releases, offering review copies to reviewers, advertising, forum posts, and hundreds more, use whichever work for your game!

Fifth, constantly learn from others who create also shareware games! A great site to learn from is http://indiegamer.com! Read almost everything on that forum, and ask questions when you're confused!

That's it!

(EDIT: I actually meant to place this in the distribution forum, feel free to move it there, moderators. Sorry for the mistake. Although it's also sort of a comment to the community about the flood of uninformed topics about making money with games in that forum ;) )


hmm....I like what I read so far....So what about investments? E.G. hiring of a concept or pixel artist?
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#7 Tarik

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 10:06 PM

It was quite interesting to follow your great adventure Rinku. I have to applaud you for your efforts and successes. However it might be nice to either be more elaborate in this topic, or point the members of this community to your earlier documentation (specifically your forums.)

This is because you are currently simply stating it's possible to make money. I think we can all agree on that point. You haven't mentioned here however that you have spent quite a bit on advertisement, that it took many manhours in a joint effort from multiple members to get the 7k. The only data you provided that doesn't give the wrong impression, in my opinion, is the period of selling, which is over one and a half year.

Now don't get me wrong, again, you are one of the few pioneering GM users in the commercial market. Not the first, but definately one of them. You've been very fair in your business, provided a quality game and put a lot of effort into it. You also were kind enough to share your experiences and sales approach with us, something rarely done. But the way you wrote this first post is very misleading, I know it's unintentional, but atm it looks like you made a profit of 7k, while you really have to deduct your costs, and then divide it by the combined manhours invested by your team, then put it in the timeframe and likely conclude that even though it was an amazing academic experience, it was a financial disaster. (In terms of comparing your income to the same hours invested on a job of your team member's educational level.)

Now I'm not saying it was your intention to make a living off of this project. But for everyone out there who's interested in doing so, it'll take a lot more. Either way, thanks for your efforts Rinku, you have truly done a great job!
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#8 2Dcube

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 04:15 AM

First, you must be at least 18 and have experience making games! I suggest you make great freeware games first! If you have made a free game with over 50,000 downloads, you could probably be successful selling games too!

Hey, that's me! :lol:

Maybe I should give this a try. Even if it won't sell much it would be a good experience.

Very interesting. Please elaborate more on this or tell me where I can read more! : )

Edited by 2Dcube, 28 November 2008 - 04:15 AM.

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#9 Schalk

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 04:31 AM

Proof that it works!!! Here (USD = US dollars $$$! :lol: ):

Posted Image

Okay!!! Here's a way to make money with your games!

First, you must be at least 18 and have experience making games! I suggest you make great freeware games first! If you have made a free game with over 50,000 downloads, you could probably be successful selling games too!

Second, make a great game! Not just great by Game Maker standards, but a polished game that can compete with the games on sites like http://manifestogames.com!

Third, give your game a website and set up an e-commerce provider like Plimus, BMT-Micro, or eSellerate! They take around 10% of the sale price and in exchange do digital download, credit card transactions, and even mail you a check each month!

Fourth, market!!! There are many ways of marketing, like press releases, offering review copies to reviewers, advertising, forum posts, and hundreds more, use whichever work for your game!

Fifth, constantly learn from others who create also shareware games! A great site to learn from is http://indiegamer.com! Read almost everything on that forum, and ask questions when you're confused!

That's it!

(EDIT: I actually meant to place this in the distribution forum, feel free to move it there, moderators. Sorry for the mistake. Although it's also sort of a comment to the community about the flood of uninformed topics about making money with games in that forum ;) )


Finally, someone posting ways on how to make money that actually know what they are talking about. Thanks for sharing!

Any chance you could maybe tidy your first post up a bit.
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#10 MMORPGguy

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 04:39 AM

Wow, this actually looks useful, unlike everything else like this that I've seen.
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#11 Ebonic_and_Nightwisp

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 05:07 AM

Wow, this actually looks useful, unlike everything else like this that I've seen.

It definetly is useful but it is to...
hmm...How can I say this?
...Brief
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#12 Broxter

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 09:21 AM

First, you must be at least 18 and have experience making games! I suggest you make great freeware games first! If you have made a free game with over 50,000 downloads, you could probably be successful selling games too!

Hey, that's me! :lol:

Maybe I should give this a try. Even if it won't sell much it would be a good experience.

Very interesting. Please elaborate more on this or tell me where I can read more! : )

Yeah, I really really really think you should do this. Simply having your name on the game will get you many sales. You don't even have to make an awesome game. And everybody loves a bit of revenue. ;)
Go on 2D! Sell some games and make some lurvely cash.

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#13 rinkuhero

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 10:55 AM

Thanks for all the nice comments, sorry I didn't respond right away: I made the post and then went to Thanksgiving dinner at my sister's house, and our car died on the way and we had to get it towed and take the train back.

Sure, I'll tidy up the post and explain it if you want, but this post was actually meant as kind of a joke (making light-hearted fun of all the inexperienced people offering crazy ways to make money making games in the distributions forum, with their overuse of explanation marks etc.). If anyone really wants and could use a more extensive tutorial rather than a joke-tutorial, I'll write one up in the distribution forum.

There's a *lot* to know though, I recommended reading everything on indiegamer.com forums for a reason. There are probably hundreds or thousands of bits of information that you'd need to absorb in order to do this successfully, which is why the best way is to learn gradually, one tutorial can't cover it all. I'm still learning.

Edited by rinkuhero, 28 November 2008 - 10:57 AM.

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#14 gangstar59

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 11:01 AM

yeah u make 2d cube rich :lol:
like idea
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#15 Milo-

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 11:09 AM

Nice thread, just a word of warning though: Like some people already said, don't expect to sell your game without inverting a single dime on it and absolutely make SURE your game isn't bad before inverting money in it. I can't stress this enough, if you are not sure if your game is good enough, go to forums (Preferably, not here. People will criticize you more as a GM programmer instead of criticizing your game. You want the later.), upload a demo, let people criticize it and if you take their criticism and improve whatever is wrong with your game, go to ANOTHER forum (People tend to not be as harsh the second time you ask them for criticism) and repeat. I remember this guy in another forum that wanted to sell a game maker game that quite honestly sucked, he had inverted about 1000 dollars in it and the only thing he got was a few laughs and probably one copy sold to a guy that just wanted to laugh at the game some more. Either that or he was a good troll, but my point stands.
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#16 King Killa

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 12:54 PM

Nice thread, just a word of warning though: Like some people already said, don't expect to sell your game without inverting a single dime on it and absolutely make SURE your game isn't bad before inverting money in it. I can't stress this enough, if you are not sure if your game is good enough, go to forums (Preferably, not here. People will criticize you more as a GM programmer instead of criticizing your game. You want the later.), upload a demo, let people criticize it and if you take their criticism and improve whatever is wrong with your game, go to ANOTHER forum (People tend to not be as harsh the second time you ask them for criticism) and repeat. I remember this guy in another forum that wanted to sell a game maker game that quite honestly sucked, he had inverted about 1000 dollars in it and the only thing he got was a few laughs and probably one copy sold to a guy that just wanted to laugh at the game some more. Either that or he was a good troll, but my point stands.

So you have experience with selling games, then? Who says you NEED to spend money on your game? Some people are great at graphics/music and use these to advantage along with simple gameplay. You don't always need to invest money into your game when you can easily do the whole thing on your own.

As for selling games, I'd have no clue.
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#17 rinkuhero

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 01:01 PM

All you really need to invest is hosting costs. But you can get that for moderately cheap, only a few dollars a month. You also probably should buy the Pro version of GM for $20 too. But besides that, you don't really need to invest any money at all to sell GM games. You can invest a little, and it may help, but you can do a lot of marketing for free, and selling games doesn't really cost anything. Immortal Defense made $1000 in its first month without me investing anything in it besides the two things mentioned (hosting costs and GM). I did invest some money in advertising later, but I suspect that that money didn't make back more than I spent on it. I still do spend a little bit advertising, though, but not that much.
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#18 TeeGee

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 05:04 PM

Hey!

Rinkuhero is unable to post because of the double-posting policy, but he actually wrote a guide on selling indie games to answer your request. Here's the link:

http://studioeres.co...games-shareware

However, don't expect it to walk you by hand from making Pokemon fan games to successful life as indie developer :lol:. I think the intention is to give you some basics and encourage you to do some research on your own. It isn't all that hard when you put some effort into it.

Edited by TeeGee, 28 November 2008 - 05:06 PM.

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#19 pedrosorio

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 05:35 PM

I've finally decided to buy ID so you can add a few bucks to that, rinku.
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#20 rinkuhero

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 05:38 PM

Thanks! BTW, we're working on a Portuguese translation of the game, I email that to you when it's done, so you can play the game in both English and Portuguese. A friend of mine did the translation, and another friend and my father (who was born in Brazil) are proofreading it. I don't know if Brazilian Portuguese is too different from Portugal Portuguese though, but I'd assume they'd be mutually intelligible, kind of like American and British English?
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#21 pedrosorio

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 05:54 PM

Yes, Brazilian Portuguese and "Portuguese Portuguese" are quite similar. In fact, a law was passed recently that puts the Ortographic Agreement of 1990 in effect, combining the two orthographic standards (European and Brazilian).

We, Portuguese, have plenty of contact with the Brazilian Portuguese orthography so, long story short, even though they are different, I would recognize a correct spelling in the Brazilian standard even though it would be wrong in the European convention.

I had already PM'ed you about translating/proofreading it, do you remember?
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#22 rinkuhero

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 05:56 PM

Yes, Brazilian Portuguese and "Portuguese Portuguese" are quite similar. In fact, a law was passed recently that puts the Ortographic Agreement of 1990 in effect, combining the two orthographic standards (European and Brazilian).

We, Portuguese, have plenty of contact with the Brazilian Portuguese orthography so, long story short, even though they are different, I would recognize a correct spelling in the Brazilian standard even though it would be wrong in the European convention.

I had already PM'ed you about translating/proofreading it, do you remember?


Oh! I think I remember actually! Sorry for not remembering your name. Did I even reply? Or did I forgot to reply? :lol:

I'll check my PM's and see.
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#23 desertdweller

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 06:13 PM

Just wanted to mention that the last link in your post is broken. You need the [/url] tag inside the parentheses. :lol:

My favorite quote from your little Shareware Game Tutorial:

Some people are naturally jerks

Too true. :P
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#24 rinkuhero

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 06:30 PM

Thanks, fixed!
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#25 Milo-

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 06:33 PM

Nice thread, just a word of warning though: Like some people already said, don't expect to sell your game without inverting a single dime on it and absolutely make SURE your game isn't bad before inverting money in it. I can't stress this enough, if you are not sure if your game is good enough, go to forums (Preferably, not here. People will criticize you more as a GM programmer instead of criticizing your game. You want the later.), upload a demo, let people criticize it and if you take their criticism and improve whatever is wrong with your game, go to ANOTHER forum (People tend to not be as harsh the second time you ask them for criticism) and repeat. I remember this guy in another forum that wanted to sell a game maker game that quite honestly sucked, he had inverted about 1000 dollars in it and the only thing he got was a few laughs and probably one copy sold to a guy that just wanted to laugh at the game some more. Either that or he was a good troll, but my point stands.

So you have experience with selling games, then? Who says you NEED to spend money on your game? Some people are great at graphics/music and use these to advantage along with simple gameplay. You don't always need to invest money into your game when you can easily do the whole thing on your own.

As for selling games, I'd have no clue.

Uhhh, yeah, now, let's take a quick look at reality and realize that most of us, game maker users, often lack enough skill in at least one of the 3 main game design areas (Programming, audio, graphics). Sure, I suppose people like rinkuhero exist and may manage to make a comercial game without investing much on it, but if it really was that easy for everyone we'd see a lot more commercial GM games.
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#26 rinkuhero

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 06:38 PM

Well, that's why you can work as a team (I mention teams a bit in the tutorial). Immortal Defense wasn't just me, it was many people: I had someone do the portraits and enemy sprites and cutscene graphics, I had two people do the music, and I had someone help me write the story. The profits didn't all go to me, they were split up among the team, in proportion to how much work someone did on the game.
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#27 Dan1995

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 06:48 PM

Not to be.... mean.... but, did you ACTUALLY sell 385 copies of your game? Or was that just a little.... demo number?

(Not that I find it hard to believe that GM games can sell)
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#28 rinkuhero

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 07:01 PM

Not to be.... mean.... but, did you ACTUALLY sell 385 copies of your game? Or was that just a little.... demo number?

(Not that I find it hard to believe that GM games can sell)


Yes, I wouldn't just make up a screenshot like that. And it's actually fewer sales than other GM games -- I believe Magi, Fatal Hearts, and Cute Knight all sold more than Immortal Defense. Getting a few hundred sales really isn't that hard. If you want a month-by-month total, here: http://pics.livejour...ku/pic/000wp8kf

Notice that most of it was in the beginning, especially the first month. I wasn't kidding when I talked about that part in the tutorial :lol:

There was also an increase during December and January, perhaps people are more likely to buy a game for someone for Christmas? Not sure.

Edited by rinkuhero, 28 November 2008 - 07:07 PM.

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#29 xot

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 07:13 PM

Thanks for posting this, rinkuhero. Many indies are way too secretive about their sales. Even me. So, for the record, my one highly derivative shareware title made less than $100 in four years with zero marketing. :lol:
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#30 YoMamasMama

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 07:39 PM

Rinku knows what he's talking about.

I went to him for some pointers on selling my next game.
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#31 TeeGee

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 07:42 PM

And it's actually fewer sales than other GM games -- I believe Magi, Fatal Hearts, and Cute Knight all sold more than Immortal Defense.

No longer true. MAGI sales declined a lot after the last update's hype went down, while yours remained pretty much consistent along the way. Right now I'm very close to your figures. The only real difference is that most of my sales came in bursts (which made few months really good :lol:), while yours were more static.


[Shameless plug]

By the way, I'm making a sequel to MAGI, which is also a commercial game (and of pretty high quality, I hope) and is done with Game Maker. I'll probably let people here know how well it sells after it will finally be released.

[/Shameless plug :P]
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#32 Ebonic_and_Nightwisp

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 08:22 PM

And it's actually fewer sales than other GM games -- I believe Magi, Fatal Hearts, and Cute Knight all sold more than Immortal Defense.

No longer true. MAGI sales declined a lot after the last update's hype went down, while yours remained pretty much consistent along the way. Right now I'm very close to your figures. The only real difference is that most of my sales came in bursts (which made few months really good :P), while yours were more static.


[Shameless plug]

By the way, I'm making a sequel to MAGI, which is also a commercial game (and of pretty high quality, I hope) and is done with Game Maker. I'll probably let people here know how well it sells after it will finally be released.

[/Shameless plug :snitch:]

haha...I seen px of arc magi...Looks nice cant wait to see how it does...Long time no c teegee :mellow:...anyway staying on topic maybe you should share some of your own proffesional wisdom dealing with the subject...after all your the one I myself confront for advice... :lol:

Edited by Ebonic_and_Nightwisp, 28 November 2008 - 09:11 PM.

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#33 TeeGee

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 08:35 PM

Thanks. I think Paul really pointed all the important basics. You need to do further research by yourself. It's too much knowledge to pass in few posts or guides, but it's pretty easy to find over the internet, if one is willing to learn. I would start from the forums Rinku posted - lots of great stuff there.

And still, the best advice is always to just make a cool game. By the time you are able to finish something really good, all the other problems suddenly appear less complex :lol:.
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#34 Ebonic_and_Nightwisp

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 09:00 PM

I just said that to stay on topic lol

Edit: I research all the time and keep my eyes open for potential investments or skills I can learn.

Edited by Ebonic_and_Nightwisp, 28 November 2008 - 09:10 PM.

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#35 hpapillon

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 09:22 PM

I generally avoid public figures because I'm paranoid of being harassed about it, but I can say that many of my games have sold way more copies than that... but not all of them. The first GM game I ever put on sale has only sold about 300-some copies and it's been out for five years. And some games have done much worse than that, and one product was such an utter disaster that I've scraped it entirely off the site and tried to pretend it never happened. :lol:

Win some, lose some. If you go into game-making as a business, you'll also need to judge when you have a game that could do really well with some polishing and when your idea is a disaster and you're better off moving on...
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#36 Ebonic_and_Nightwisp

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 09:39 PM

I generally avoid public figures because I'm paranoid of being harassed about it, but I can say that many of my games have sold way more copies than that... but not all of them. The first GM game I ever put on sale has only sold about 300-some copies and it's been out for five years. And some games have done much worse than that, and one product was such an utter disaster that I've scraped it entirely off the site and tried to pretend it never happened. :lol:

Win some, lose some. If you go into game-making as a business, you'll also need to judge when you have a game that could do really well with some polishing and when your idea is a disaster and you're better off moving on...

and Once you realise its potential thats when you start investing a little more than time and programming right :P...
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#37 Mr.Chubigans

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 12:02 AM

What I'd love to hear rinku is the amount of downloads your demo has gotten since release. If I'm not mistaken, sale throughs of games typically hover around 3-6%...meaning you should have around ten thousand downloads or so? If the number is lower, then that's quite an achievement!

It's great to have such openness on sales numbers...I wish more users would take the lead like rinku.

Edited by Mr.Chubigans, 29 November 2008 - 12:03 AM.

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#38 SilentxxBunny

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 12:11 AM

Did you work with a team on "whatever game it was that you were selling" or did YOU personally get to pocket 7000ish dollers? Because that would be epic. And just because my curiousity is teasing me, what game was it?

???

Edited by SilentxxBunny, 29 November 2008 - 12:11 AM.

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#39 Zezuken

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 12:35 AM

Did you work with a team on "whatever game it was that you were selling" or did YOU personally get to pocket 7000ish dollers? Because that would be epic. And just because my curiousity is teasing me, what game was it?

???


Re-read the first post maybe..?

And I believe he made it all himself..?
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#40 SilentxxBunny

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 02:33 AM

Re-read the first post maybe..?

And I believe he made it all himself..?

Haha, I did read the first post, I just didn't see the "product" box in the image, sorry.
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#41 Pie Person!

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 02:34 AM

Wow, this is great. And Mr.Chubigans is reading this. Yay.
EDIT: And now 2D cube!?

Hope you guys sell some games :lol:.

Edited by Pie Person!, 29 November 2008 - 02:35 AM.

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#42 rinkuhero

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 04:06 AM

I generally avoid public figures because I'm paranoid of being harassed about it, but I can say that many of my games have sold way more copies than that... but not all of them. The first GM game I ever put on sale has only sold about 300-some copies and it's been out for five years. And some games have done much worse than that, and one product was such an utter disaster that I've scraped it entirely off the site and tried to pretend it never happened. :lol:

Win some, lose some. If you go into game-making as a business, you'll also need to judge when you have a game that could do really well with some polishing and when your idea is a disaster and you're better off moving on...


Do you mean that game where you hit girls in a classroom for making noise or something? :P

Anyway, maybe I'll catch up one day! I also haven't used portals or affiliation yet (although I am starting to use them soon), so maybe it'll go up after that. Or down, if what people say about Reflexive and piracy is true ;_;

What I'd love to hear rinku is the amount of downloads your demo has gotten since release. If I'm not mistaken, sale throughs of games typically hover around 3-6%...meaning you should have around ten thousand downloads or so? If the number is lower, then that's quite an achievement!

It's great to have such openness on sales numbers...I wish more users would take the lead like rinku.


Total number of downloads are hard to track, especially because the game is sometimes included on magazine pack-in CDs, and because it's available on all sorts of smaller download sites. I think you have the conversion rate backwards though: it's number of sales per 100 demo downloads, so 3-6 is good, and 0.5-1.5 is bad. I.e. typically you'll need between 200 and 50 downloads for 1 sale, and a conversion rate of 3-6, assuming that's possible, would mean only 30 or 15 downloads per sale. My conversion rate has varied quite a bit and I didn't try to calculate it exactly, I usually just go month by month: some months it's been as low as 0.3% (1 sale per 300 downloads), other months it's been as high as 1.5% (1 sale per 66 downloads). I am not sure about total downloads, but I'd estimate it at around 50,000, give or take 20,000. It's really hard to estimate, it's not as simple to count downloads as you would expect when they're spread out across thousands of sites, pack-in CDs, etc., many of which you never heard of until you find them in Google. Plus there's a lot of piracy, and who knows how many sales are to people who pirated the game and wanted to buy it after that (I'd guess not many, but you never know), and pirated copy downloads are also hard to track.

Did you work with a team on "whatever game it was that you were selling" or did YOU personally get to pocket 7000ish dollers? Because that would be epic. And just because my curiousity is teasing me, what game was it?

???


I worked with 4 other people on Immortal Defense, one of which was my father who waived his royalty rate, leading to a 60-10-10-10 share for each, with 10 going toward hosting fees and other fees of the business. So I personally got 60% of that total, which is around $4500. Also, we had the game on the game giveaway of the day twice, and they paid us 400$ and 450$ for that, which isn't included in the total sales numbers, so my total personally is probably closer to $5000.

Edited by rinkuhero, 29 November 2008 - 04:19 AM.

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#43 SilentxxBunny

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 05:24 AM

I worked with 4 other people on Immortal Defense, one of which was my father who waived his royalty rate, leading to a 60-10-10-10 share for each, with 10 going toward hosting fees and other fees of the business. So I personally got 60% of that total, which is around $4500. Also, we had the game on the game giveaway of the day twice, and they paid us 400$ and 450$ for that, which isn't included in the total sales numbers, so my total personally is probably closer to $5000.

Hah, how did you get the three other people to agree to a 60-10-10-10 split? What roles did each of you take on? I am guessing that you were lead coder, because your chunk is so much larger than theirs, what exactly did each person on the team do?
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#44 rinkuhero

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 05:30 AM

Hah, how did you get the three other people to agree to a 60-10-10-10 split? What roles did each of you take on? I am guessing that you were lead coder, because your chunk is so much larger than theirs, what exactly did each person on the team do?


It wasn't really "get them to agree", since I did at about 60% of the work -- creating the site, programming and designing the game, the visual effects and procedural graphics, the sound effects, all of the marketing, testing, balancing, public relations, etc. They created some of the other required resources that I used in the game (the music, the portrait art, enemy sprites, and some of the story game text). I probably could have made the game entirely alone, since I'm not a horrible artist and I could have just bought some royalty-free music or something, and a lot of indie developers do do that and just keep all of the sales, but I figured that since I had talented friends that it's better to make use of their skills, and I think it helped a lot, it probably would have taken me twice as long to make the game (it only took me 6 months) if I had done everything myself, and it wouldn't have turned out as great as it did, since specialization helps.

Edited by rinkuhero, 29 November 2008 - 05:31 AM.

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#45 Ebonic_and_Nightwisp

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 05:52 AM

Hah, how did you get the three other people to agree to a 60-10-10-10 split? What roles did each of you take on? I am guessing that you were lead coder, because your chunk is so much larger than theirs, what exactly did each person on the team do?


It wasn't really "get them to agree", since I did at about 60% of the work -- creating the site, programming and designing the game, the visual effects and procedural graphics, the sound effects, all of the marketing, testing, balancing, public relations, etc. They created some of the other required resources that I used in the game (the music, the portrait art, enemy sprites, and some of the story game text). I probably could have made the game entirely alone, since I'm not a horrible artist and I could have just bought some royalty-free music or something, and a lot of indie developers do do that and just keep all of the sales, but I figured that since I had talented friends that it's better to make use of their skills, and I think it helped a lot, it probably would have taken me twice as long to make the game (it only took me 6 months) if I had done everything myself, and it wouldn't have turned out as great as it did, since specialization helps.

fortunate you are...to have such friends...
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#46 rinkuhero

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 06:04 AM

It's fortunate but it also comes from 15 years making freeware games and building up friends with other people who also make them. I met most of them in the Ohrrpgce (another game engine) community. Generally you should only work with people who have a history of finishing projects, don't work with people who are lazy, because they'll slow the game down more than help it. I've had plenty of games fail because someone on the team was too lazy to work on it.

Edited by rinkuhero, 29 November 2008 - 06:04 AM.

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#47 Ebonic_and_Nightwisp

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 06:20 AM

I've had plenty of games fail because someone on the team was too lazy to work on it.

that makes me frustated just thinking about it...
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#48 Dmaster270

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 06:31 AM

Nice Joke Guide. And I'm amazed about how many people who have made commercial games have posted in it.
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#49 Willows

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 11:39 AM

Do you do anything to fend off piracy?

I mean, I'm sure there's a certain percent you lose to torrents and cracks and what have you, but do you actively hunt them out yourself and report them or get anyone else to do so?

...is it even worth it to do so?
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#50 rinkuhero

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 04:09 PM

Do you do anything to fend off piracy?

I mean, I'm sure there's a certain percent you lose to torrents and cracks and what have you, but do you actively hunt them out yourself and report them or get anyone else to do so?

...is it even worth it to do so?


There are several types of piracy: people sharing the game with each other, torrents, and people hosting the full game on their own site for free -- but a very common type of piracy for indie games is just uploading the full version of the game in a rapidshare or megaupload file (free file hosts). The first few types I named you can't do anything about, but you *can* email file hosts to have them take the game down. I do have an online friend (who calls herself my secretary) who does search out rapidshare and similar filehost versions of ID and emails them to take them down -- she's removed about 8 pirated versions that way so far (and I did about that number myself, before she started doing it). It's still relatively easy to find a pirated version of the game if you know how, but it's not easy for a non-expert at pirating to do it, since most of the versions someone will find if they search for the game on Google will not work (and I do know through Google's keyword analysis tool that hundreds of people search for the pirated copy of the game each month, way more people than who buy it). There are other ways to fight it too, like uploading your own *fake* pirated versions to confuse people, so people download a version thinking it's the full game when it's actually the demo. The theory is that if someone tries to pirate it and can't find it within a few hours (although some people will be more persistent and find it eventually), they are more likely to buy it, since it's only $15 anyway.
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