80 replies to this topic

[rinkuhero]

Very few installers add anything to the registry. It sometimes takes more clicks to run a game that comes in a zip than one that comes in an installer, though this varies by the complexity of the installer. I think offering both can be a good idea though.

One problem with using packed archives, though: it makes patching etc. more difficult, because you have no idea where someone unpacked the archive. Whereas with installers, it's usually in the same place for everyone.

Another benefit of installers is that they create desktop icons and appear in the start menu. Most people who use computers are not techies. They know how to use desktop icons, some of them even know how to use the start menu, but most of them don't know how to go through their hard drive and find where they unzipped something.

So it's an audience difference. To techies like us who know how to program and make games, zips are fine, but to people who don't remember where they installed something and don't know how to find a file and such, installers work better.

There's also the issue hpapillon mentioned: if your game is commercial, you'll probably want a license agreement. You can't ask people to read them and agree to them as easily without an installer. So that's probably the primary reason commercial games use installers.

Edited by rinkuhero, 26 November 2008 - 04:50 PM.

[chainsawkitten]

One problem with using packed archives, though: it makes patching etc. more difficult, because you have no idea where someone unpacked the archive. Whereas with installers, it's usually in the same place for everyone.

If that's a problem for you, you're not worthy of calling yourself a programmer.

There's also the issue hpapillon mentioned: if your game is commercial, you'll probably want a license agreement. You can't ask people to read them and agree to them as easily without an installer. So that's probably the primary reason commercial games use installers.

No one ever reads the license. No matter if it's in the installer or hidden in some obscure directory deep down the computer.

[rinkuhero]

Just because something can be overcome doesn't mean it's not a problem. A specified installation folder that is the same for all users lets patching programs know where to look for it. Of course it's easy to write a program that can patch it anywhere, but that program still has to know where to look for it, and if a user just extracted it as a zip somewhere, that user won't always know where it is months later when they're patching it, and it'd be annoying for them to have to look for it and tell the patching program where it is. So I didn't mean that it's a problem to program, it's more of a problem to use.

And of course very few people read the license. But that doesn't mean they aren't legally bound by that license. If a commercial game uses a zip, and the user didn't agree to the license when installing it by checking "I agree" or something, then they aren't legally bound by that license. Hiding the license in some obscure directory doesn't make it legally binding, it's only binding if they actually say they agree to it.

[theweirdn8]

Did you delete GM?

[chainsawkitten]

Just because something can be overcome doesn't mean it's not a problem. A specified installation folder that is the same for all users lets patching programs know where to look for it. Of course it's easy to write a program that can patch it anywhere, but that program still has to know where to look for it, and if a user just extracted it as a zip somewhere, that user won't always know where it is months later when they're patching it, and it'd be annoying for them to have to look for it and tell the patching program where it is. So I didn't mean that it's a problem to program, it's more of a problem to use.

It's easy to make an automated patcher where the user doesn't have to do anything... No problem, neither to program or use.

[andrew_berge]

And of course very few people read the license. But that doesn't mean they aren't legally bound by that license. If a commercial game uses a zip, and the user didn't agree to the license when installing it by checking "I agree" or something, then they aren't legally bound by that license. Hiding the license in some obscure directory doesn't make it legally binding, it's only binding if they actually say they agree to it.

Couldn't you just display that stuff the first time the game is run? if the player disagrees, it just shuts down.

[rinkuhero]

Automated patching is a good idea, but sometimes you don't know the game will be patched in the future and didn't anticipate needing to. Does anyone know if auto-patching has been done in Game Maker yet? I haven't seen it so far.

Displaying the license when the game first runs might legally work too.

I still think creating a desktop icon is crucial though, especially for people who aren't technically inclined. My mother can't find any file she installed to save her life, but she can find desktop icons easy.

[chainsawkitten]

Automated patching is a good idea, but sometimes you don't know the game will be patched in the future and didn't anticipate needing to. Does anyone know if auto-patching has been done in Game Maker yet? I haven't seen it so far.

I made an autopatcher for an upcoming game (if it ever gets finished...). It's not really that hard, since there are many wonderful network DLLs. =)

[theweirdn8]

installations are great for mmorpgs and games that use updaters.

[MatrixQuare]

If that's a problem for you, you're not worthy of calling yourself a programmer.

Theoretically, it's both a programming problem and a usability problem. Why? Well, lets first go back to the root of the argument and be constrained by what Rinku already stated:
The said user unpacks the zip archive somewhere in the deep abyss of his HDD. You, being an intelligent (and good) programmer, don't add anything to the registry (my reasoning will be explained near the end) nor a file to anywhere else other than your game's local directory (to keep the game portable, the settings should be saved locally, not in <User's> Documents).

This present a minor programming problem:
Write an algorithm that looks for an EXE that matches the one that can be patched (Using either MD5 hash, CRC32 checksum or whatnot). Not the main obstacle, given that MD5/CRC check scripts are already posted.

The bigger problem? Usability:
The patcher will have to scan the entire hard drive--not only that, it has to MD5 or CRC check each .exe file it finds to see if it matches the given signature. How long will this take? Depends on where the ZIP archive was unzipped, as well as the HDD speed and size. Afterall, you don't want the user to be waiting 15 minutes while your patcher actually LOOKS for the file without having done any actual patching.

Now, with an installer, at least the installer will add to the registry an entry that tells your patcher will to look for the installed application.

The other work around is that you expect your audience to manually place the patcher into the same folder as the application.

Either way, a one-click patcher will be better off combined with an installer (having the game MANUALLY add registry keys is a BAD idea [BAD, BAD, BAD, repeat with me: BAD], because without an uninstaller, when the player simply deletes the game, you leave whatever reg keys you've added to the registry hive and it STAYS there until the end of time, or the next re-format, whichever comes first! BAD programming practice!), and trust me, a one-click patcher is better than having the user manually specify where to look for the .exe file.

[Dangerous_Dave]

Run the patcher from the games exe, passing the games location to the patcher as a parameter. Problem solved.

[DarkFlame]

For the installer you forgot to mention in the pro's that it is really useful for adding to the registry and altering system files for greater compatibility.

Also installer's use less memory but usually extract faster then an archive.

[ideaz]

I reckon you should only really use an installer for a commercial game. If it's free, the player is probably just browsing a site like YoYo Games to kill a few minutes so an installer will annoy them and waste their time if they want to get rid of it. Also, as xot said, it can really slow down the "Change or Remove Programs" panel which can be annoying if you've installed a load of free games.

Otherwise, I think installers are good for commercial games because it makes the user trust it more and it looks like everything's going ok.

[NakedPaulToast]

Why do people insist that "Installers look more professional", this is ridiculous.

Installers are important when installing programs that have support files, directories and registry entries. They are also important for less sophisticated computer users.

For most games on the GMC, they are less necessary because most GMC members are comfortable unzipping and placing the exe and support files in a place on their drive, and removing them at their convenience when done. GMC member created games very rarely have enough support files and registry entries to warrant installers.

Install options are about:

• Target Audience
• Convenience
• Ensuring support files are in place
• Cleaning up after yourself when done

It is not about:

• Looking professional
• Forcing users to download different compression programs
• Being free or commercial
• Sneezing crap all over peoples hard drives

Edited by NakedPaulToast, 05 January 2009 - 07:57 PM.

[staffan15]

If I don't share it on YoYoGames, I share it usng just the .exe, no .rar, .zip or setup programs.

Edited by staffan15, 11 August 2009 - 01:36 AM.

[jobro]

I'd rather not listen to the complaints and general failings of newbs who have no clue what a RAR file is.

Well if they can't use Wikipedia to look up what RAR is / how it can benefit their file transfer then I'd say it's undoubtable their loss. It is true that ZIP nowadays are handled within the latest Windows OS's, but it does that with such a lousy quality that it ain't worth using it. And besides one can still use winrar after the trial period is over. Just a tiny reminder that is easily closed. I've been using RAR since as far back as 1997 for all my files.

Installers now. I'd say for a commercial large game I don't mind using installers, but for simple game testing / release on YYG I prefer zip files.

I should also mention that there is a free install creator called Inno setup that is quite good. Lets you design your installer from scratch.

[Andy]

You could always release both an installer and a zip.

[A.R.T.games]

I like the way Linux does it with there pack things. Its like an install but its better than what windows does imo.

But would i rather install a game or get it and unzip it? My self I like to get it in and zip file. But they both have there places.

[commander of games]

What an intresting thread. Heres my comment:
First off, I will talk about Installers. Installers can, for example, make it alot easier for the user to delete the game file(by adding it to the add/remove programs thing), or make shortcuts, and make it easier for a patching program to find the file(they put stuff in the registry about the files location). And for all you people who think installers clog up the registry, go download a registry cleaning program. Installers also FORCE the user to agree to the terms and conditions(a.k.a EULA)of the game by clicking the little "I Agree" radio box. That means that IF they happen to defiy(spelling?)the agreement(stealing reasources, ilegal redistributing, etc), you can sue them. They also let you create a Start Menu folder for the game Those are some of the reasons commercial games use installers. Now, lets talk about ZIP/RAR files. Zip/Rar files(note: I will be refering to zip/rar files as zip through the rest of this explanation)are good for certain games, but NOT commercial games/profesional games. They make it harder for all the n00bs who dont know how to use a computer(I however, am not one of them). They wont know where how to create a shortcut, they wont know how to extract it, they probobly wont even know where they put the file/files! Zip file extractors usualy have a horrid GUI compared to some installers. If commercial games used them, it would look HIGHLY unprofesional and be n00bish. So, for all you people that say "everytime I download a game with an installer, I delete it" that obviously means that you dont play games commercial games. If you think that commercial games should have not have an installer, then heres my awnser: STOP FLOODING THE FORUMS WITH ALL THIS "I HATE INSTALLERS! I THINK THAT ALL COMMERCIAL?NON COMMERCIAL GAMES SHOULD USE ZIPS" S***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My point is, use a zip file for wips, use an installer for a completed/commercial game.

Edited by commander of games, 08 October 2009 - 06:27 PM.

[score_under]

And for all you people who think installers clog up the registry, go download a registry cleaning program.

Which won't solve the problem. Do research.

Installers also FORCE the user to agree to the terms and conditions(a.k.a EULA)of the game by clicking the little "I Agree" radio box. That means that IF they happen to defiy(spelling?)the agreement(stealing reasources, ilegal redistributing, etc), you can sue them.

It's nice to know we have experienced professional lawyers on the forum. Do research.

They also let you create a Start Menu folder for the game

A user can do that, (as can a game) and I have a start menu that no longer fits on my screen. Not always desirable; do some research.

Those are some of the reasons commercial games use installers.

Actually, it's more that they want to stop emails from noobs going "HOW I MINE FOR WINZIP".

Now, lets talk about ZIP/RAR files. Zip/Rar files(note: I will be refering to zip/rar files as zip through the rest of this explanation)are good for certain games, but NOT commercial games/profesional games.

Where are you getting this data from? Do research.

They make it harder for all the n00bs who dont know how to use a computer(I however, am not one of them).

How did they get to a site about Game Maker then? And if you're distributing online, you can easily package a manual with it.

They wont know where how to create a shortcut, they wont know how to extract it, they probably wont even know where they put the file/files!

Good for them, maybe they should have read the basic instructions given to them in the readme or the website.

Zip file extractors usualy have a horrid GUI compared to some installers.

Usually? Weasel words, citation needed.

So, for all you people that say "everytime I download a game with an installer, I delete it" that obviously means that you dont play games commercial games.

Actually, most commercial games are distributed either via a DRM platform (e.g. Steam) or via physical media (CD-ROM). Steam does the setup in the first case, and in the second case it's not being downloaded. I think you'll find that they're also referring to games from the GMC, meaning the target audience are computer literate and that the people downloading will probably mass-download games.

If you think that commercial games should have not have an installer, then heres my awnser: STOP FLOODING THE FORUMS WITH ALL THIS "I HATE INSTALLERS! I THINK THAT ALL COMMERCIAL?NON COMMERCIAL GAMES SHOULD USE ZIPS" S***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ZOMG!!!!!! EXCLAMATION MARK OVERUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111 STOP FLOODING THE FORUMS IN ALL CAPS

Here's my answer: Why are you touting the benefits of installers when most people want a zip? You should either go with what your customers want, which is a .zip file, or give a choice between that and your installer.