I Like Gm7!why Everybody Here Not? Options

[Sir Kildar]

I don't like because, well, mostly YoYo games, but there are other reasons too!
I don't know what EULA means, but I don't like the extensions packages, or room transitions.
In my opinion, GM6 was fine. It could handle functions, there is no point to dislike the resource editors, you can get other ones you know, the level editor was fine, not much to comnplain about in GM6, but then YoYo comes in and, well, stuffs it up!
Plus I can't be bothered updating my reg. key, so whatever!
-sk

[AKH]

In each case "use" of this Software shall be to create computer games ("Games").

I feel so restricted!

You are allowed to make software with GM. That is just defining what it means by the word "Games" in the EULA: Use of the software.

I'm afraid that YoYo's definition of "games" will mean something completely different than your "use of the software one.

But I'll bite : if "games" means "use of the software", how can you not make "games" ?

In other words : If your explanation of that line is the valid one it has become meaningless. As I do not think that they are that stupid I have to conclude that your explanation of what that line means is probably incorrect.

I have read a lot of EULAs. I'm not a lawyer, but I think I know what I'm talking about.

...and even if I don't, it's unlikely that YoYoGames will actually do something about it if anyone makes a program with GM.

I'm going to e-mail them about this.

This post has been edited by AKH: Apr 5 2007, 09:04 AM

[dmitko]

I think people hate it because everything new (tutorials, examples, etc.) are in GM7 and old users can't have it. Have you noticed that haters don't have and haven't seen GM7. This is the reason I think. People don't have money to buy GM7. I use GM6.1 registered and I don't hate GM7.

[ragarnak]

But I'll bite : if "games" means "use of the software", how can you not make "games" ?

I have read a lot of EULAs. I'm not a lawyer, but I think I know what I'm talking about.

If that is so you should be able to answer my question. Care to try ?

Currently all I see is someone who has now claimed two things without providing proof or even substanciation for either.

...and even if I don't, it's unlikely that YoYoGames will actually do something about it if anyone makes a program with GM.

The question is not if they will, but when they, if they should choose so, have the right to do so.

The problem with your above statement is that if its true (which I think it is) YoYo-games has deliberatily created a legal limbo (between the limits their EULA sets, and the restrictions that are set to you by your countries laws) where you are more-or-less enticed to go in (so you can make a bit "better" games than drag-and-drop Donky-Kong clones), but where you than can be picked-up for breaking YoYo's law any time they like. And that just does not feel right.

I'm going to e-mail them about this.

I wish you much luck, as Mark closed (at march 19) a discussion about the very subject (what does the EULA actually mean to us. See here), and we're still waithing for him to "report back".

[AKH]

But I'll bite : if "games" means "use of the software", how can you not make "games" ?

I have read a lot of EULAs. I'm not a lawyer, but I think I know what I'm talking about.

If that is so you should be able to answer my question. Care to try ?

Currently all I see is someone who has now claimed two things without providing proof or even substanciation for either.

...and even if I don't, it's unlikely that YoYoGames will actually do something about it if anyone makes a program with GM.

The question is not if they will, but when they, if they should choose so, have the right to do so.

The problem with your above statement is that if its true (which I think it is) YoYo-games has deliberatily created a legal limbo (between the limits their EULA sets, and the restrictions that are set to you by your countries laws) where you are more-or-less enticed to go in (so you can make a bit "better" games than drag-and-drop Donky-Kong clones), but where you than can be picked-up for breaking YoYo's law any time they like. And that just does not feel right.

I'm going to e-mail them about this.

I wish you much luck, as Mark closed (at march 19) a discussion about the very subject (what does the EULA actually mean to us. See here), and we're still waithing for him to "report back".

1. Like I said, I'm not a lawyer, so I'm only 99% sure that I'm right. How many EULAs have you read? those words are defining the term "Games".
2. What's the other thing I claimed?
3. You're talking about Games There. They can't sue you for making a Game. Not everything is against their EULA.
4. I saw that topic. You seem to be one of the few people who still think YoYo is out to get us all.
5. YoYo haven't been doing much at all recently. Or at least it looks like that from their blog. We're just going to have to keep pressurising them until they say something.

This post has been edited by AKH: Apr 5 2007, 09:59 AM

[tnec]

yes

[ragarnak]

[*] Like I said, I'm not a lawyer, so I'm only 99% sure that I'm right.

So am I. And as the total "rightness" cannot exeed 100% either you or I must be (at least a bit) mistaken.

Although I doubt that I am, I would not mind at all if you proove me wrong.

How many EULAs have you read? those words are defining the term "Games".

I have asked you to define non-games, as your definition of "games" does not make it possible to make anything like it.

Alas, up untill this moment you have not answered it. And I have no intention in guessing what you mean/are thinking/are referring to or in holding a "im sure I'm better than you" -contest.

[*] What's the other thing I claimed?

I'll name both, as I'm currently not even sure that you know what the first is.
1) You know what that EULA says/means.
2) You know what you are talking about.

[*] You're talking about Games There.  They can't sue you for making a Game. Not everything is against their EULA.

No. I asked you to explain to me what you ment by stating that "games" equals "Use of the software".

[*] I saw that topic. You seem to be one of the few people who still think YoYo is out to get us all.

I did not say or mean that. What I did say is what I said here to : YoYo creating a legal limbo (in which they hold all the rights, and we as users none), which is something that is, at least to me, unacceptable.

[*] YoYo haven't been doing much at all recently. Or at least it looks like that from their blog. We're just going to have to keep pressurising them until they say something.

Try it. Maybe you will have more luck than us.

Oh, by the way : if you have no intention in clarifying what you ment than don't bother reponding. Although I do not mind a good discussion at all, I do mind the kind of non-talk we are currently having.

[AKH]

[*] Like I said, I'm not a lawyer, so I'm only 99% sure that I'm right.

So am I. And as the total "rightness" cannot exeed 100% either you or I must be (at least a bit) mistaken.

Although I doubt that I am, I would not mind at all if you proove me wrong.

How many EULAs have you read? those words are defining the term "Games".

I have asked you to define non-games, as your definition of "games" does not make it possible to make anything like it.

Alas, up untill this moment you have not answered it. And I have no intention in guessing what you mean/are thinking/are referring to or in holding a "im sure I'm better than you" -contest.

[*] What's the other thing I claimed?

I'll name both, as I'm currently not even sure that you know what the first is.
1) You know what that EULA says/means.
2) You know what you are talking about.

[*] You're talking about Games There.  They can't sue you for making a Game. Not everything is against their EULA.

No. I asked you to explain to me what you ment by stating that "games" equals "Use of the software".

[*] I saw that topic. You seem to be one of the few people who still think YoYo is out to get us all.

I did not say or mean that. What I did say is what I said here to : YoYo creating a legal limbo (in which they hold all the rights, and we as users none), which is something that is, at least to me, unacceptable.

[*] YoYo haven't been doing much at all recently. Or at least it looks like that from their blog. We're just going to have to keep pressurising them until they say something.

Try it. Maybe you will have more luck than us.

Oh, by the way : if you have no intention in clarifying what you ment than don't bother reponding. Although I do not mind a good discussion at all, I do mind the kind of non-talk we are currently having.

OK. "Games" means anything created with the Software, so there is no need to define non-games...

...but if you want one... Non-games is something like an extension package or action library (I'm just using these as examples, these are things not created with GM).

I'll take back the "I know what I'm talking about" statement because it looks like 99% isn't good enough for you.

let's not let this turn into a flame war.

[ragarnak]

OK. "Games" means anything created with the Software, so there is no need to define non-games...

Than I repeat my initial remark : why name games as the only thing we are allowed to make when something else does not exist ? It does not make sense.

...but if you want one... Non-games is something like an extension package or action library (I'm just using these as examples, these are things not created with GM).

.. and as such not covered by that EULA-rule.

I'll take back the "I know what I'm talking about" statement because it looks like 99% isn't good enough for you.

I can claim you owe me E 100,- . Would you accept that only on my word ? If not, why should I than accept your word for anything ?

Although you have now, after much pressure from me, given a definition of what you think "games" means you have not tried to substanciate it at all.

I on my part have given you a reason why I think that your interpretation of that word cannot be correct. A reasoning you have allso not adressed.

Two chances to debunk my reasoning, both left un-used ....

As for "99% isn't good enough for you." ? I'm sorry, but at this moment you have not tried to substanciate either of your claims, not a promille of it.

let's not let this turn into a flame war.

I hoped to show you that your explanation simply has little chance being correct, and maybe learn something in the process (As I said, I would love it to, in this case, be prooven wrong).

But yeah, lets stop our conversation. Although it could have been interesting it has shown to be anything but.

[AKH]

OK. "Games" means anything created with the Software, so there is no need to define non-games...

Than I repeat my initial remark : why name games as the only thing we are allowed to make when something else does not exist ? It does not make sense.

...but if you want one... Non-games is something like an extension package or action library (I'm just using these as examples, these are things not created with GM).

.. and as such not covered by that EULA-rule.

Yeah, not covered by that EULA rule because it was made with a different program.

It is naming "Games" as anything made with the software, because that is what the software was designed for.

[pokemonelite4lea...]

Again, just pointing out a popular reason GM7 is disliked.  Why do you like GM7 Fred?  Give us some info for Dany   I honestly can't think of more.  That website link at the bottom left-hand side is something people either like or dislike.  I try to ignore it myself.

I find it hilarious that people have even bothered to read the EULA and take it seriously. Like, people feel totally hamstringed by this EULA, but with GM6.1 felt totally free to make illegal ports and clones of major IPs despite that Copyright law is much more imposing than a cover-our-asses EULAs.

Comparing the GM EULA to something like the WindowsXP and VISTA EULAs makes GM look like some sort of community service versus the EULA-rights-exising-prison that is Windows (not that I'm bashing microsoft... juwts making a comparison.) Yet everyone is still using windows.

Get a grip.

And that button... oh the damn complaints about the button. YoYoGames says "hey, here's a quick link to our website so if you get stuck in GM7, the whole community is only a mouse-click away." And everybody cries foul. It's like smacking the referee for handing you the ball after a play. They're trying to help you out.

Gratitude people.

If GM7 is so freakin' lousy, then people can simply go and make their own game authoring tool.

I for one find the quality of software and attention to the [largely ungrateful] community to be awesome at a $20 price level.

Yeh sinaz speak teh truth XD

[hpapillon]

Than I repeat my initial remark : why name games as the only thing we are allowed to make when something else does not exist ? It does not make sense.

In order to have a shorthand way to refer to 'creations made with Game Maker' throughout the rest of the document. It's standard practise for a legal document to define a bunch of terms at the beginning - when I send out contracts to artists they start by defining Project (the game I'm developing that they're doing art for, which has a working title of <whatever>) and Works (the individual pieces of art created by the artist within the contract) so that we can later discuss what rights I and the artist have regarding the Works. Titling them Works doesn't mean that if the artist finds it really easy to make art then they've broken the contract by not making it "work" enough...

They can't restrict you to making only games if they haven't given any definition of what a game is. The only displayed definition of a game is something made with Game Maker.

[AKH]

I told you, ragarnak. There's proof it's just being used to define the term "Games".

This post has been edited by AKH: Apr 5 2007, 03:10 PM

[Jabberwock]

My problem isn't the lack of definition for the word "game," because all I have any interest in making with GM are games in the first place. However, I am bothered by the lack of a definition for the term "obscene" when such content is forbidden in another part of the EULA. I mean, I personally don't make any games that would be considered "obscene" by anyone sane, but I don't think it's YoYo's place to dictate that. Instead of that, they could just claim no liability for the contents of the games made with the program. That would achieve more or less the same end, and would feel less restrictive.

Besides that, I have no need for GM7 at the moment. I only use a fraction of the features in GM6, and Windows Vista is not yet the norm- plus, like hpappilon has said, GM6 is compatible with Windows 98 while GM7 is not. Plus I have a kind of complicated computer setup that would make it a real pain to register GM7, and I don't want any of the features (though admittedly c_orange would be helpful when I don't want to think about hexidecimal).

This post has been edited by Jabberwock: Apr 5 2007, 03:21 PM

[Carnivac]

Besides that, I have no need for GM7 at the moment. I only use a fraction of the features in GM6, and Windows Vista is not yet the norm- plus, like hpappilon has said, GM6 is compatible with Windows 98 while GM7 is not. Plus I have a kind of complicated computer setup that would make it a real pain to register GM7, and I don't want any of the features (though admittedly c_orange would be helpful when I don't want to think about hexidecimal).

You actually sound mostly rational there but then ya ruin it with an obnoxious 'proud boycotter' sig...

[ragarnak]

In order to have a shorthand way to refer to 'creations made with Game Maker' throughout the rest of the document.

Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me.

Although I have regarded that particular line as a rule, looking at it as a definition does seem to make sense.

It's standard practise for a legal document to define a bunch of terms at the beginning ...

Yep. But for some reason I got the idea that that part was over when I saw that the line our current dispute is over was distinctly different from the line above it, but did not have its own number. Changes in document-style mostly mean ending of a previous part.

But must I admit that I could (and actually hope that I) have been wrong here.

Titling them Works doesn't mean that if the artist finds it really easy to make art then they've broken the contract by not making it "work" enough...

It would rid this earth from tons of so-called "art" though (from a pile of literal garbage, to a multi-million dollar "painting" consisting outof a single black dot. Oh well, the value is in the eye of the beholder).

They can't restrict you to making only games if they haven't given any definition of what a game is.

True. The question was, for me, if that definition is as un-defined as we believe it is, and not could be used as some sort of "stick behind the door".

The only displayed definition of a game is something made with Game Maker.

You're right, the only displayed definition is. I did however assume that those documents where allowed to use "commonly known" definitions too. So I did (use such a definition).


Strange though that a question directly aimed at Mark about this very line now allready is taking 17 days (from March 19) to get answered.

Nonwithstanding that, you have, in this respect, taken a stone from my mind (I really do not like the feeling of getting taken "for a ride" ... )

[Jabberwock]

You actually sound mostly rational there but then ya ruin it with an obnoxious 'proud boycotter' sig...

That's only half serious. Meh... maybe I should get rid of it. It's like a bumper sticker- even if it does convey what you believe, it generally says it in an oversimplified way, and people think you're dumb because of it.

[jmpearson2001]

good job creating a battle... jeesh...

lets just stir everybody up then! [/sarcasm]



GET OUT YOUR GM6 SWORDS

[drazzke]

good job creating a battle... jeesh...

lets just stir everybody up then! [/sarcasm]



  GET OUT YOUR GM6 SWORDS

You mean your GM7 swords!

I don't know why people don't like GM7.0 It's much better than GM6.1 with all of it's new features.

Besides, I think most people are switching over to GM7.0 now.

[B&B_Gaming]

good job creating a battle... jeesh...

lets just stir everybody up then! [/sarcasm]



  GET OUT YOUR GM6 SWORDS

You mean your GM7 swords!

I don't know why people don't like GM7.0 It's much better than GM6.1 with all of it's new features.

Besides, I think most people are switching over to GM7.0 now.

Hmm... well, I wrote out what I could think up off the top of my head...

GM7 Main Program
------------------
-Little banner in the corner.
*Ok, people need to get over this one, just turn it off.
-Poorly written website ad in the Un-Reg banner
-Encyption
*G-Java? G-Flash? Un-corrupter? Pathetic to ruin GM like that just to stop those programs.
-No Windows Me support
*They even say it will work on Me


Registration
------------------
-No GM6/GM5 registration
*Pretty bad idea if you tell people to use GM6, Mark...
-Many people cant even upgrade
-Many legit GM6 users couldn't test the Beta(s)
*I figured this one could go under Registration
-Online registration system:
-Offline users cant get registered
-Now the offline is out, let's wait a month to get activated!


GMC/Game Maker site
-------------------
-Say good bye to the GMC!
*Now we get to go to this totally un-related YYG site
*Enough to get me to leave
-The YYG forums are using Beast
*Now they're using some random forums no one has heard about!!
-YoYo Games
*Who will go to YoYo Games for a Game Maker? That's pathetic.


EULA
-------------------
-Games not allowed to contain _______ material:
-Violent
-Obscene
-Pornographic
-Illegal
-Racial
-Harrasing
-
-Requirement to contain own EULA to state YoYo Games' "rights" (See below)
*Yeah, right.
-YoYo Games' "rights":
-All sprites/images
-All sounds/music
-All codes you worked HOURS on
-All concepts
-All characters
-All names
-All designs
-All themes
-All stories
-All animation
-All effects
-All text
-"Will not function properly"
*Wow, wait'a cover yourself
-"YoYo Games,... do not,,, limit liability for any death or personal injury arising from their negligence."
*If I die, they're getting sued anyway.
-No other Game Makers

PS: I tried to get rid of all profanity, but don't freak out if you see some stars. ****